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[Keyrock]

My issue with KotOR combat was that it was turn-based dressed up to look like real-time.  They tried to get the best of both worlds and wound up with the worst of both worlds.  It was combat that was neither real-time, nor a well structured and thought out turn-based.  I really hate it when developers try to combine the 2 systems or mask one as the other.  Just pick one or the other and focus on that.  Making a hybrid almost never works out well.

[the_dog_days]

My issue with KotOR combat was that it was turn-based dressed up to look like real-time. They tried to get the best of both worlds and wound up with the worst of both worlds. It was combat that was neither real-time, nor a well structured and thought out turn-based.

Isn't this the same thing FF did for Lightning Returns? (And I still haven't heard one FF fanboy admit the combat sucks.)

[Nonek]

I have a question. Let me preface it with something. I love storytelling, and find its potential (although squandered a lot) in video games interesting. However, many people don't care about it, but many here do for obvious reasons (Obsidian's stock and trade). However, we have 2 RPGs being remade at present (This and FF7), and they are being made from the ground up. They are getting new engines, new combat, etc. Why completely change the combat?

 

These two games were halmarked for their story, for sure. However, FF had solid combat as it was, and I enjoyed the Kotor games combat, personally. These two titles are going to have a pretty large audience based on the players of the original titles, but I don't see either completely blowing the doors off local game stops or shutting down steam. So changing their combat really is just going to ostracize the people who may buy the product for sentimental reasons while incredibly risky because they aren't too likely to pull in new players. Maybe I am wrong, but I just don't understand it. I mean Kotor may sell because it's Star Wars, and FF because it's FF. I just don't understand not having similar combat to the original titles.

 

Maybe it's just me, and I'm old. It isn't unlike a movie reboot that treats an older IP unkindly. It just seems a strange trend as of late. I am not saying I won't play this, or knocking it for what it is. I am genuinely curious as to other people's opinion on why the need to change the combat completely.

 

 

I think you're underestimating the urge to acquire the new form of whatever is available Mr Ganrich, it does not really matter whether a prior form was serviceable or even better, what matters is that the new form is acquired and the old form is dispensed with and rendered supposedly obsolete by the latest iteration. It is almost endemic in the gaming industry, the slightly aged is dismissed, sometimes without even being experienced and the rabid urge to acquire the new is prioritised. Woe betide the audience member who likes a feature that is now considered regressive, for he is standing in the way of progress and innovation!  

 

Thus we have the common dismissal of players who enjoyed the subjectively superior vision of a classic game as wearing nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, when in fact the opposite is true and the rabid devotion to the new has rendered the criticiser unable to judge because of his bias. In my opinion anyway.

 

Personally I thought the dance of death clearly lifted from NWN was quite satisfying and serviceable. Could it have been tightened up and improved however? Indubitably.

 

Edit: I think i'll use this rhetoric when the nostalgia glasses argument arises, its similarly mildly insulting and dismissive while requiring no proof or citation.

[Mamoulian War]

 

My issue with KotOR combat was that it was turn-based dressed up to look like real-time. They tried to get the best of both worlds and wound up with the worst of both worlds. It was combat that was neither real-time, nor a well structured and thought out turn-based.

Isn't this the same thing FF did for Lightning Returns? (And I still haven't heard one FF fanboy admit the combat sucks.)

Yes they did. And I feel scammed...

[Zoraptor]

My issue with KotOR combat was that it was turn-based dressed up to look like real-time.  They tried to get the best of both worlds and wound up with the worst of both worlds.  It was combat that was neither real-time, nor a well structured and thought out turn-based.  I really hate it when developers try to combine the 2 systems or mask one as the other.  Just pick one or the other and focus on that.  Making a hybrid almost never works out well.

 

I'd say that the base system is fine- it's essentially still the system used in the IE games and while the combat in Icewind Dale or Baldur's Gate may not have been the best it was certainly good. That's unsurprising given that Aurora shared many of the backend bits of the original Infinity Engine and was used for NWN. If there was a problem with their approach it was too much obfuscation of it being simultaneous turn based so it didn't take any advantage of that system so as to appear more buzz word friendly real time rather than 'slow/ boring' turn based.

 

Personally I'd say that the problem was that the combat was plain old boring though, used the wrong engine so didn't make much sense if given the slightest thought (supra modern guns that fire as often and as accurately and are used at as close a range as 17-18th century pistols? everyone running around with swords because blasters etc were so plink plink?), had basically no variety and no need for anything other than the most basic thought and tactics. It wasn't really bad in any singular sense, but the aggregate effect was that it was at very best mundane and rapidly became an actual chore you were forced oh so often to get through.

 

Kotor2 had the same problems too, but at least there the ludicrous balancing meant that most fights lasted barely more than a round after a while. That's one example of a game that was massively improved by bad balancing.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Zoraptor

[Ganrich]

Listen, when I said I enjoyed the combat in kotor.. I meant just that. I definitely think it could be better, I put it between the IE titles and NWN, though. I agree that kotor 2's streamlining of the combat was better, and it added Weapon Finesse which was my big WTF moment in the first game when I realized it was absent. I hate NWN1 combat with a fury. It was clunky, and obnoxious. I am not saying kotor was the end all be all. I've never been that high in my life.

 

I would argue that this isn't a rose tinted glasses issue. This isn't a new title under the same name, a sequel, or a spiritual successor. This is taking a title, and remaking it. You are keeping the story and scrapping everything else. It's the equivalent of remaking a movie, keeping the actors, camera angles, sound effects, etc. However, you are recording everything again and adding a bunch of special effects. It feels like the Star Wars Ep 4, 5, and 6 theatrical rerelases of the 90s to an extent (although Lucas didn't record everything again), and I somewhat feel that the end result will be Greedo shoots first, the sarlacc will be inspired by Little shop of horrors, and they replace Ghost Anakin's actor at the end.

 

It's fair that Kotor is a mod, but it still feels weird. Skywind makes sense. You are just facelifting the older better setting in the same engine.

 

Any title I were to ask for a remake I would expect it to play the same with just have a graphic overaul, but not overhaul any aspect of the story or the game itself. You could add to it, but don't edit what is already there. Otherwise you are making a new game, and keeping a story. At which point you may as well write your own story with a new setting and be able to sell your game. Im quite surprised FF fans didn't riot with the FF7 announcement. That's my 2 cents, I guess.

[Orogun01]

My issue with KotOR combat was that it was turn-based dressed up to look like real-time.  They tried to get the best of both worlds and wound up with the worst of both worlds.  It was combat that was neither real-time, nor a well structured and thought out turn-based.  I really hate it when developers try to combine the 2 systems or mask one as the other.  Just pick one or the other and focus on that.  Making a hybrid almost never works out well.

I personally enjoy the hybrids, mostly because I can choose all actions beforehand and just let it play without everyone waiting their turn. Turn Based Combat got really annoying later in D:OS, specially how you only had 4 guys and were waiting on 20 guys to do their moves. I found KOTOR combat to be unoffensive, it didn't bother me but it didn't grabbed me either.

[Humanoid]

Unoffensive is how I would consider KoTOR in general, I played it once near release, it was fine but had no strong feelings about it, to the extent I didn't go out to grab the sequel despite the Obsidian connection. But now I've just finished watching a KoTOR LP, and I can't say it's aged even remotely well: at more than a few points I was thinking "wow, I can't remember that at all, but that's terrible". This applied for both gameplay and story, so unless a remake does something about both, this is off the table for me.

 

FF7 is another game I played once and that was it. It's also the only FF game I've ever played. I would not play it again unless every random battle was removed, as it, and all the XP grinding that ensued, managed to put me off JRPGs for the next 17 years or so.

[Mamoulian War]

FF7 was so easy, that you never ever ever needed to do any XP grind if you didn't want it super easy or kill Emerald Weapon.

 

@Ganrich. FF7 fans have kind of rioted, but classical FF fans are no longer target audience for Square Enix. The only game announced by them in last 5 years, which made me at least little bit excited was Star Ocean 5 announcement, which seems at least little bit true to their precedesors.

[Oerwinde]

FF7 was so easy, that you never ever ever needed to do any XP grind if you didn't want it super easy or kill Emerald Weapon.

 

@Ganrich. FF7 fans have kind of rioted, but classical FF fans are no longer target audience for Square Enix. The only game announced by them in last 5 years, which made me at least little bit excited was Star Ocean 5 announcement, which seems at least little bit true to their precedesors.

 

I couldn't get into the 4th Star Ocean, and thats after absolutely loving 2 and 3 (need to boot up my emulator and finally play 1 sometime). I think I played it for a 2 or 3 hours and couldn't make it out of the initial crash site, and the CG character art was terrible. Saw they released an "international" version later that kept the original anime artwork. No idea why they thought the original western release needed to change it.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Oerwinde

[HoonDing]

"Isn't this the same thing FF did for Lightning Returns? (And I still haven't heard one FF fanboy admit the combat sucks.)"

 

Lightning Returns combat is great tbh

 

only FF game with good combat aside from X

 

though in XII at least it was mostly automated

Edited March 9, 2016 by HoonDing

[SadExchange]

For those who own a ps4 and have been waiting for the release of Ska Studios Salt and Santuary, it releases next week at the beginning of Sony's launch party list of indie titles. Very excited myself about this 2D souls atyle game.

[Mamoulian War]

 

FF7 was so easy, that you never ever ever needed to do any XP grind if you didn't want it super easy or kill Emerald Weapon.

 

@Ganrich. FF7 fans have kind of rioted, but classical FF fans are no longer target audience for Square Enix. The only game announced by them in last 5 years, which made me at least little bit excited was Star Ocean 5 announcement, which seems at least little bit true to their precedesors.

 

I couldn't get into the 4th Star Ocean, and thats after absolutely loving 2 and 3 (need to boot up my emulator and finally play 1 sometime). I think I played it for a 2 or 3 hours and couldn't make it out of the initial crash site, and the CG character art was terrible. Saw they released an "international" version later that kept the original anime artwork. No idea why they thought the original western release needed to change it.

 

 

Because Square Enix you know

 

They have forgotten, that the reason, why JRPGs were loved in the west, was because they were completely different from what west could offer. I played all of them, but finished only 1 and 4. I played 2 during my business trip on PSP and had no internet, so I got stuck at the final dungeon, that place was crazy to go without drawing the map or without spoilers, and it was very uncomfortable to draw maps on airports

 

 

"Isn't this the same thing FF did for Lightning Returns? (And I still haven't heard one FF fanboy admit the combat sucks.)"

 

Lightning Returns combat is great tbh

 

only FF game with good combat aside from X

 

though in XII at least it was mostly automated

 

To each his own. for me LR:FFXIII had the worst combat from all FF's.  It was boring and repetitive and boring and repetitive and etc... The sales numbers speaks about how this game sucked... on two next gen consoles (at the time of release) the game performed almost the same as Bravely Default on 3DS!!! , which is Final Fantasy in everything but name.

 

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/70939/lightning-returns-final-fantasy-xiii/

 

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/70938/lightning-returns-final-fantasy-xiii/

 

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/63395/bravely-default-flying-fairy/

 

And SE still thinks that making FFVII remake action game is a good idea... sigh

[Malcador]

 

Announcer voice is a pale attempt at the UT dude

[Keyrock]

Announcer voice is a pale attempt at the UT dude

That is one seriously uninspired announcer.  Put some damn feeling into those lines.

[Vaeliorin]

While KoTOR's combat was pretty uninspired (spam Master Flurry all day), it would be nice if the remake would at least stay in the same genre, which seems unlikely given the first person view. I know they said there was third person as well, but I can't imagine putting first person view in a real-time game with a dice-based combat system. Seems like it's gonna be another action game calling itself an RPG.

[Flouride]

 

Dead Island 1 was a soul-numbing game solo. Though I can see how it could be fun with more players.

 

I played it a bit with a friend, and even then I've found it to be extremely unenjoyable. It's one of the games where I really thought not even a price tag of 2€ is worth it.

 

 

As a single player and unmodded it was soul crushing experience. But once I got into co-op mode with my cousin and we modded it a bit so the zombies didn't take 10 hits to kill it did get fun. We did try Dead Island: Riptide decided to **** it. Even at 10 euros pricetag we felt that the game was just bad. Granted there were no mods for it, but the map design alone was just so damn bad we tried it again after the first time.

The problem with zombie shooters is that get really repeative and fast.

[mkreku]

While KoTOR's combat was pretty uninspired (spam Master Flurry all day), it would be nice if the remake would at least stay in the same genre, which seems unlikely given the first person view. I know they said there was third person as well, but I can't imagine putting first person view in a real-time game with a dice-based combat system. Seems like it's gonna be another action game calling itself an RPG.

 

So, according to you, what decides if a game is a RPG or not is what type of combat it has.

 

I guess we have wildly different opinions on what makes a game an RPG. Combat is one of he least important criteria for me.

[HoonDing]

Jedi Knight only Star Wars games with good combat.

Hit mook with lightsaber = dead mook. Mook shoots at you with blaster = reflect bolt, dead mook.

[Keyrock]

I guess we have wildly different opinions on what makes a game an RPG. Combat is one of he least important criteria for me.

 

Co-signed.

[Tigranes]

I want combat to be good when the game is mostly about combat, really. KOTOR is one of those 'full monty' RPGs so it's not too bad, but for example combat matters a lot more in BG/POE than Gothic.

[Humanoid]

As far as KoTOR goes, I'd be happy with a combat system that consists purely of Force Zapping people through dialogue options.

[Vaeliorin]

 

While KoTOR's combat was pretty uninspired (spam Master Flurry all day), it would be nice if the remake would at least stay in the same genre, which seems unlikely given the first person view. I know they said there was third person as well, but I can't imagine putting first person view in a real-time game with a dice-based combat system. Seems like it's gonna be another action game calling itself an RPG.

 

So, according to you, what decides if a game is a RPG or not is what type of combat it has.

 

I guess we have wildly different opinions on what makes a game an RPG. Combat is one of he least important criteria for me.

Sigh...my tablet has eaten my reply 3 times now.

 

Anyway, that isn't what I said. Yes, combat is one of the elements that determines, to me, if a game is an RPG. But it isn't the only element. Being able to express your character, making choices that have consequences, and a myriad of other things determine, to me, whether or not a game is an RPG. If the rules can't be directly used for a tabletop game (even if they'd be incredibly unwieldy), then a game doesn't fall within my definition of RPG.

 

That isn't to say other games are somehow bad. I just think that the genres commonly used are far too broad, and end up meaningless. When I can look at the top selling RPG's on Steam and find Grim Dawn (a hack and slash loot grinder), Ark (a survival sandbox building game with animal taming), Dark Souls 3 (a tactical action game with platforming elements, going by the first two Dark Souls games), and The Division (a multiplayer-focused 3rd person shooter), all in the same category as Baldur's Gate (a RTwP RPG), how is the genre supposed to be meaningful or useful to me? Those games are essentially nothing alike other than all having progression systems. More strictly defined genres would allow for people to more easily find games that would likely appeal to them, and avoid wasting time filtering out things that don't. It would also be nice for people who don't know much about games, allowing them to have a better chance of purchasing a gift that would be enjoyable for someone based on knowing what genres they like.

[Darkpriest]

For me RPG is when the stats define your character and driv eit through the game. Any agency aside of dialog choices and tactics that overrides the stats makes it less of an RPG. Those are action games with a story.

[Chilloutman]

For me RPG is when the stats define your character and driv eit through the game. Any agency aside of dialog choices and tactics that overrides the stats makes it less of an RPG. Those are action games with a story.

 

co-signed