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Josh Sawyer's tweets and teasers, part 2

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Because then you would have to have multiple variables for summon weapon times.

Isn't "summoning time" simply the time it takes to cast and recover from the spell that summons the weapon? If so these variables already exist, as they do for all spells. Nothing new has to be introduced.
Proposal:

 

X value for X category of summonable weapons, Y for Y weapons, Z for Z weapons...then balance them...then plan on doing the same for every other spell type because people are going to bitch because one subset of spells got special treatment and their preferred subset didn’t...and do it quick because your game ships in 5 weeks.

 

 

Or just have a single variable that that you can quickly and easily modify for all summonable weapons.


"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Josh

 

justalurkerpage asked:

 
One resolve suggestion I think you misunderstood/missed on the forums - reduce duration of hostile effects applied. Universally desirable, can compensate partially for poor defenses, fits the idea of resolve, avoids adding even more RNG and random crit spikes (resolve granting random empowers, which also necessitates making manual empowers half as strong)
 
No, I didn’t miss or misunderstand it.  I think it has more problems than people are considering.  It’s overlapping into the space governed by defenses themselves and doesn’t scale well due to it being a percentage reduction that needs 30 points of “growth” on the positive (i.e. above 10) scale.  
 
Intellect can continue to scale its duration bonus up in 5% chunks because even after it hits 30 (20 points over 10, +100%) it can always increase more.  If Resolve were a percentage reduction, it would need to increment by 3% per point to avoid topping out before 40.  At 5% per point, you would hit 100% reduction at 30 and you’ve run out of runway.
 
5% per point is potent, but almost everything connected to attributes in Pillars is symmetrical, so what works on party members would also work on enemies.  Would you want to fight enemies who spike a basic tier 1 Resolve Inspiration and chop (an additional) 25% off all incoming effect durations?  If the enemy started with a 15 Resolve, it would cut all incoming effect durations in half.  Worse, if the enemy started with a 20 Resolve, the easily-attainable 25 would cut them by 75%.  A 10s Paralyze becomes a 2.5s Paralyze.
 
Is 3% reduction per point enough?  At 15 you’d have 15% reduction.  At 20, 30% reduction.  At 30, 60% reduction.  Maxed out at 40, 90% reduction.  On the lower end, a 5 Resolve would increase hostile durations by 15%.
 
Is 2% reduction per point enough?  At 15, 10%.  At 20, 20%.  At 30, 40%.  At 40, 60%.  A 5 Resolve would increase hostile durations by 10%.
 
Whatever the scale is, it would naturally place a heavier emphasis on Intellect (because you are inherently countering additional reduction) and require balancing base hostile durations (only) around the reality that hostile effect durations (only) are adjusted both by the attack result and by Resolve. 
Edited by draego
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Josh

 

justalurkerpage asked:

 
One resolve suggestion I think you misunderstood/missed on the forums - reduce duration of hostile effects applied. Universally desirable, can compensate partially for poor defenses, fits the idea of resolve, avoids adding even more RNG and random crit spikes (resolve granting random empowers, which also necessitates making manual empowers half as strong)
 
No, I didn’t miss or misunderstand it.  I think it has more problems than people are considering.  It’s overlapping into the space governed by defenses themselves and doesn’t scale well due to it being a percentage reduction that needs 30 points of “growth” on the positive (i.e. above 10) scale.  
 
Intellect can continue to scale its duration bonus up in 5% chunks because even after it hits 30 (20 points over 10, +100%) it can always increase more.  If Resolve were a percentage reduction, it would need to increment by 3% per point to avoid topping out before 40.  At 5% per point, you would hit 100% reduction at 30 and you’ve run out of runway.
 
5% per point is potent, but almost everything connected to attributes in Pillars is symmetrical, so what works on party members would also work on enemies.  Would you want to fight enemies who spike a basic tier 1 Resolve Inspiration and chop (an additional) 25% off all incoming effect durations?  If the enemy started with a 15 Resolve, it would cut all incoming effect durations in half.  Worse, if the enemy started with a 20 Resolve, the easily-attainable 25 would cut them by 75%.  A 10s Paralyze becomes a 2.5s Paralyze.
 
Is 3% reduction per point enough?  At 15 you’d have 15% reduction.  At 20, 30% reduction.  At 30, 60% reduction.  Maxed out at 40, 90% reduction.  On the lower end, a 5 Resolve would increase hostile durations by 15%.
 
Is 2% reduction per point enough?  At 15, 10%.  At 20, 20%.  At 30, 40%.  At 40, 60%.  A 5 Resolve would increase hostile durations by 10%.
 
Whatever the scale is, it would naturally place a heavier emphasis on Intellect (because you are inherently countering additional reduction) and require balancing base hostile durations (only) around the reality that hostile effect durations (only) are adjusted both by the attack result and by Resolve. 

 

I repeat myself and copy my post from a different thread:

 

I think Josh is correct. The current situation where res gives a bonus to spell damage/healing may not be perfect, but it is better than any suggestions of the OP.

They should stick with the basic concept of what stats do.

Each point above 10 gives a flat bonus ( like +2 will defense ) or +X% of base value ( like +3%damage ), so that each stat has at least some use for every char.

The duration of effects is already influenced by int. I see no reason to change this and I see also no reason that something ( like damage, speed or acc) is influenced by several stats. That would make things more complicated and I see no benefit from doing so. Many mechanics and formulas are already too complicated or not well enough explained.

 

 

Josh is also correct that if res reduces the duration of effects, chars or enemies with very high res would be completely immune to everything. Looking at the defenses of enemies, lowering them and then use CC or increased damage against them was an importent tactical thing in PoE1. This would be gone, because it would be useless to cast any hostile effect on enemies with high res.

 

I also dislike when the stat gives an x% chance to cause or avoid something.

Like res giving a chance to empower, because the bonus for empower on different abilities is very different. This plus the random nature of the effect would make things unpredictable and you cannot act strategic if you cannot predict the outcome of an action.

 

They should stick with the simple rules:

acc - defense + 1d100 = X, and X determines if it is a miss, graze, hit or crit

abilities should only be empowered when you select empower (and you should see the exact effect of empower before doing it)

stats should give a flat bonus per point, not a chance of x% that something happens

 

I do like suggestions from the community and I did suggest some things myself.

But giving a long list of possible changes what a stat does one month before release seem not very helpful.

PoE1 was a great game, so I have faith in the devs that they create something good. (well, at least after some patches ;))

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It's one of those things that sound fantastic until you consider all the angles. They've got a real conundrum with Resolve, and I hope they find a workable solution.

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If you have to mention it and call it silly and childish it can't have been too amusing.

You came around the corner with your usual uppity eyerolling demeanor - you deserved some childishness. ;)

 

self contradictory... again.  is not childish, but also is, but is okie dokie 'cause were deserved.

 

in response to a Gromnir observation 'bout how you wan't quickened cast times for all summoned weapons, you claim, "I never said that nor did I mean it."

 

*sigh*

 

...

 

"I want faster summoning times for all summoned weapons"

 

is some kinda star trek mirror universe.  

 

edit, in part to keep this on-topic rather than simple noting poster lunatic moments: summoned weapon silliness should be cause for concern as is repeating past.  typical, when developers observe they is adding or changing in spite of their best judgement, results has been unfortunate.  vancian for traditional casters were only added to poe 'cause 'o fan demands.  so we get vancian and per encounter mashup which makes balance impossible, 'cause recent rested casters were far more powerful than casters temporal remote from rest.  is many other such examples.  developers changing their mind ain't a bad thing, but when they specific have voiced reservations 'bout such changes, it should be a cause for concern.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Harhar funny - I meant that part (and I guess you knew that):

 

as if summoned weapons is equal problematic and subject to universal fixes.

Should have shortened the quote in the first place...

 

Or the developers just tried MaxQuest's mod and realized it was more fun. :p

Edited by Boeroer

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Harhar funny - I meant that part (and I guess you knew that):

 

as if summoned weapons is equal problematic and subject to universal fixes.

Should have shortened the quote in the first place...

 

Or the developers just tried MaxQuest's mod and realized it was more fun. :p

 

 

am not certain how such helps you.  you explain why you want the universal fix, but you sure as heck did say you wanted such.  you do in fact want a fix for casting time for all summoned weapons in spite o' fact such would not actual fix the perceived firebrand problem... the firebrand being the hobgoblin you yourself inserted into the discussion.  

 

and yeah, the firebrand were a much more viable summoned weapon before the penetration 'fix.' a magical scaling greatsword which does burn/piercing damage, given the original penetration system, were a significant boon, albeit still a bit limited.  with burn damage against a considerable number o' potential foes, you get the advantages o' a high piercing weapon without needing activate a modal for piercing, while being able to in fact activate greatsword modal.  with the original penetration scheme for deafire, one which were so dire punishing for failed penetration, an ordinarily lower penetration weapon such as a greatsword which would be disproportionate penetrating 'gainst the considerable number o' fire weak foes (any number o' plants and vessels and ice critters) would be a summoned weapon worth at least consideration.  sure, individually it weren't op, but use josh statement to then cherry pick with firebrand were disingenuous... at best.

 

but again, this is repetitive to fatigue degree.  is not new.  this particular merry go round is yours as were the case previous in the summoned weapon thread.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Those are two seperate things and you mix them up all the time:

 

A) Boeroer wants shorter summoning times.

B) Boeroer wants to tweak down some summoned weapons and buff some others - especially Firebrand.

 

I want shorter summoning times because I think it plays better/ is more fun. Said that from the beginning, tried it with a mod and I think I am right. More people agree than disagree, so I can't be totally stupid and unreasonable.

 

I didn't say that this would fix any problems that some summoning weapons have. You keep saying that, not me.

 

Origin of this fruitful discussion was: Josh says "Summoned weapons are ludicrously powerful", Boeroer says "no they are not, for example look at Firebrand".

 

Then you came along and added lots of other stuff about being unreasonable and some other baseless assertions.

 

If it fatigues you why don't you just stop?

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Sawyer's been pretty active in responding to reddit comments made about the beta and the changes he's announced. I'll toss out some quotes from Sawyer here, but the link's better for getting a sense of exactly what criticisms and concerns he's responding to (this is in reference to the "Upcoming Changes to the Backer Beta" post at the top).

 

#1

I have played through about 80 hours of the game (through 13th level) on Veteran with only a single character in heavy armor. I can't vouch for Path of the Damned, but heavy armor is definitely not necessary on Veteran. I have Eder in plate, Pallegina and Serafen in medium, and my main (Battlemage) and Aloth in light.

 
Caveat lector: while I did not know the placements of any special unique armors outside of a handful, I do regularly enchant my unique armors to keep them upgraded.
 
#2

I would (and do) say that continuing to try to find better solutions is preferable to giving up on it. This all goes back to feedback from Pillars 1 that Resolve was not an appealing attribute for many builds.

 
#3

And of the things that we can change close to launch, adjustments to core attributes are actually one of the easiest to both implement and tune in part because they are systemic and more or less universal in application.

 

We adjusted the core functionality of Perception post-launch for Pillars 1 and it didn't need months to soak. Other than mandating the inclusion of respec, it was well-received and did not actually have far-reaching implications outside of the player's party. In part, this is because Pillars attributes are mostly balanced against each other, but are not phenomenally impactful compared to other bonuses in the system (cf. D&D stats). Also, we don't tend to min-max enemy attribute arrays.

 

#4

We have been listening to that feedback since the BB went live. I do wish we had faster turnaround times on our Backer Beta build, but it has been challenging to make those builds in addition to all of the other system design stuff that needs to happen for the main game.

 

The reason I suggested a mod is because I believed ultimately the community would be able to make faster adjustments and have better discussions about it than if we released "our version" of a speed adjustment. A modder can focus exclusively on iterating over a a narrow slice of the game. On the development team, as much as I would like to do that, it's not feasible. We have hundreds of abilities, items, creatures, etc. to finish implementing, balancing, and bug fixing. We also often disagree internally about what the right approach to balancing might be.

 
Edited by blotter
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X value for X category of summonable weapons, Y for Y weapons, Z for Z weapons...then balance them...then plan on doing the same for every other spell type because people are going to bitch because one subset of spells got special treatment and their preferred subset didn’t...and do it quick because your game ships in 5 weeks.

 

They already do it for other subsets of spells. Different direct damage spells have different casting times, presumably to balance higher damage, larger AoE, afflictions they cause etc., why wouldn't summoned weapons be the same?

 

As for the balancing argument/imminent deadline, this is a form of balancing in of itself. Some summoned weapons are (in their current form) borderline broken and others are plain bad. Adjusting their summoning times and durations is one way Obsidian could balance them.

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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People don't play dwarves because in most cases they don't make them look that distinct

I made a full Dwarf party and it is so easy that it is on balancing on the edge of "Fun or Not".

 

Fighter/Paladin (Dagger or Hammer and Shield)

Fighter/Paladin (Spear & Shield)

Fighter/Priest (Flail & Shield)

Fighter/Chanter (Pike)

Fighter/Wizard (Quarterstaff)

 

Undying Murderball.

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I sincerely hope she'll get to be a full fledged companion in one of the dlcs, she looks so unlike the typical elf.

”She’s just so interesting”

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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”She’s just so interesting”

 

Well, she looks like she is at the very least. ;)

 

complete agree.  is as if obsidian reached into our brain and discovered our two most favorite things in the whole world: goth cosplay and elves.

 

...

 

on the positive side, am having found an early frontrunner for ritualistic sacrifice if such is available in deadfire as were the case in poe. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Hairy wild Orlan ciphers and druids, dark skinned rogues and mages, indigenous American pathfinders, and armored European or Nordic paladins and fighters. That's the way I like it. Only place I would prefer dwarves is on all ship crew positions or stronghold defenders. Dwarf chanters would be great. Just not into dwarf or ogre adventurers. Love the Orlans as they remind me of hairy Kenders from Hylo or Goodlund. Baaz, Kapak, Sivak or Aurak draconians would be totally awesome in POE world. Dwarves are not big enough to wield a dragon lance! An army of giant miniature space hamsters that go for the eyes would conquer the world! Or animal companions the enemy distracts with laser lights would be fun. Shipboard canon that fires circus clowns onto the enemy deck to distract and confuse. OK, maybe that last one is a little overboard but quite entertaining. 

​I have never wanted to age a month so bad in my life! April 3rd get here already! Peace, Love, Truth and VOTL!

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