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Wait, what? The whole issue came from Resolve being a weak stat, so they moved spell damage to it. Now they discuss empower chance being added to it and if that makes no sense they revert back to might for all? So either Resolve: +spell damage and power level OR back to Might for convential damage and spell damage with nothing for resolve. Wouldn't it rather be if they revert back, resolve gets this bonus? Or does that mean, no more spell damage bonus whatsoever? Wouldn't that make strength a dump stat again? I don't get it. And what is "a short time elapse"? Sure that avoids opening with a lucky break, but I don't like hard caps.

They want to revert back to might, and the end of Josh post suggest they might do it even if substitute empower mechanic for resolve won’t pan out.

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ah. so what you actual meant [some highbrowed spiel]

No. What I meant was that Spiritual Weapon has a shorter duration than Firebrand and thus should be the more powerful weapon. But at the same time I think it's too powerful.

Edited by Boeroer

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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His better judgment is why we had "ultra powerful" summon weapons that takes an eternity to cast so nobody use them.

Well Gromnir uses them. That has to mean something...

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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I really don't like the idea of % chance of an empowered cast from an attribute. I find it a cheap solution that randomize combat too much (even more?), especially if power level will play a bigger role in the future and that won't happen if empowered casts become much more frequent.

Edited by Daled
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Wow, so many changes, so little time. I hope that this won't get done halfassed because of time constraints. I also hope we'll get POE1 Might/Resolve back, was never a fan of any of those new ideas.

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His better judgment is why we had "ultra powerful" summon weapons that takes an eternity to cast so nobody use them.

Well Gromnir uses them. That has to mean something...

 

indeed we do. regardless o' cast time, most (not all) spiritual weapons is a no brainer selection for any priest or priest multi who the player intends to use frequent in weapon combat.  and the parasitic staff is a powerful low level (genuine low and not relative pretty low) spell which is particular dangerous when wielded by warlocks and helwalker monk sages.  get some silly exploitive results from such.

 

the summoned weapon threads were typical amusing in part 'cause so many folks were indeed using or wanting summons such as spirit lances for their multiclass power builds.  even the folks who admitted the priestly spiritual weapons were kinda op inexplicable frequent argued for insta-cast and lengthened duration 'cause o' some weird ineffable weaponess which made it intuitive necessary for such to be insta-cast and last for the duration o' combat... though boeroer seems to think such weapons all do last for the duration o' most combats, so go figure.

 

were much puzzling abandonment o' reason in the summoned weapon threads.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I also said in that thread that I would like a faster cast in exchange for a less powerful Spiritual Weapon. I also read that people thought that Spirit Lance's and Minor Blights' AoE-appliance of afflictions, the crit-cascading with Swift Flurry and/or kill-cascading Cleaving Stance are game breaking.

 

It was also said that Minor Blights + dagger giving you dual wielding speed is too good.

 

Can't see abandonment of reason there. In fact the people voting for faster summoning time made some good points.

 

But of course everybody who doesn't agree that Firebrand is an awesome pick because it gives you an additional damage type after 6 seconds of summoning - should you ever need it - is just abandoning reason.

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Thing that bugs about priest spiritual weapons. All of Wael's special spells benefit melee fighters, it's spiritual weapon is a rod. But yes, they are very good.

Wael's spiritual weapon is actually even more OP because the lash also gets applied to the AoE - which is too good in my opinion. Priest of Wael/rogue does 50% Sneak + Arterial Strikes raw damage on movement + 50% lash in an AoE. Priest of Wael/ranger will trigger Driving Flight with all AoE rolls as well. It's just too good. I still would like shorter casting times - in exchange for a more balanced spiritual weapon and a reasonable Blast effect.

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But of course everybody who doesn't agree that Firebrand is an awesome pick because it gives you an additional damage type after 6 seconds of summoning - should you ever need it - is just abandoning reason.

again with the hyperbole.

 

actually, you probable don't realize you is arguing 'gainst self... seeing as how a quickend summon and extended duration ain't gonna help firebrand one bit, eh?  firebrand issues clear ain't a "summoned weapon" issue as if all is represented by a singular set o' problems.

 

oh, and firebrand is exact the kinda thing we were talking 'bout when we mentioned spells not rebalanced following early changes to penetration.  nobody disagreed that firebrand were situational useful.  poe firebrand were far too powerful and folks transparent lamenting its loss were comical.  nevertheless, when penetration were a genuine threshold as with the first beta, then a weapon which would target burn armour instead o' pierce or slash or bludgeon as does ordinary weapons, would be a situational lifesaver... which were the actual firebrand issue.  sure, deadfire firebrand, first beta release firebrand, did have usefulness, and its long duration were indeed a balance plus 'cause combats common do last 60 seconds or more (duh,) but the problem from the start were that casters get relative few power choices per level.  hard to justify choosing firebrand over other spells at same level when it were only situational useful.  regardless, instant cast and long durations ain't gonna fix firebrand now more than it did when the deadfire beta were first released. cast time and duration were never the problem with firebrand no matter how much boeroer indulges in hyperbole.  sadly, the usefulness o' firebrand during first beta release has been marginalized by the penetration fix.  took a situational useful spell and reduced usefulness even further by "fixing" penetration w/o any kind o' rebalance o' firebrand to take into account the penetration change.

 

complete unreasonable to be treating the summoned weapons as some kinda uniform class when each is having unique strengths and weaknesses.  pretend the ineffable weaponness demands long durations and insta casts?  that were indeed unreasonable, and common.  ignore that spiritual weapons were doing ridiculous damage in the hands o' a wide variety o' multiclass combos, regardless o' absence o' insta cast? unreasonable.  etc.

 

am frequent disagreeing with josh, but is one issue he got right.  but hey, keep pointing to firebrand as if it is the poster child for all summoned weapons, while ignoring fact the proposed blanket fixes o' quickened cast time and lengthy durations wouldn't make firebrand even a smidge more desirable.  also unreasonable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the beta feedback echo chamber has produced valuable feedback.  no question. nevertheless, show isolated instances o' insight or sanity does not in anyway transform the host o' additional unreasonable demands, particular 'bout summoned weapons. is kinda like the silly "i have ____ friends," response when being accused o' bias, as if such isolated exceptions disprove general bias.  regardless, we feel troubled admitting as may be used against us in the future, but josh is correct. 

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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From Josh

 

 

En Garde Mother****ers posted:

Do enemies empower skills in the beta currently? Will they get random empowers/depowers if resolve changes?
 
Enemies do not Empower currently. They would if these changes go through.
 
An important note: the Resolve-based random Empowers/Depowers would specifically only occur after a character has been in combat for more than a certain amount of time (e.g. 10 seconds). This is specifically to discourage save-scumming for a random alpha strike double Empower from stealth and similar tactics. 

 

And

 

 

Samuel Clemens posted:
You can't empower auto-attacks right? So a passive build wouldn't get anything out of Resolve?
 
Looking forward to a TPK due to a randomly empowered dragon's breath.

 

You’d still gain Deflection and Will. There is no “purely” passive build in Deadfire unless you steadfastly refuse to use your 1st level active power.
This proposal limits the impact of Empower (outside of restoring resources) to +5 Power Levels instead of the current +10 (though that could still be attained on a double Empower). I.e., while an Empowered enemy ability could be nasty, the leap in power would not be astronomical.
Edited by draego
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[inapplicable stuff]

I'm not being contradictory - I try to talk about summoned weapons in a differentiated manner. I don't say that all summoned weapons are bad (only Firebrand). I said that some of them are too good at the moment (or have gamebreaking mechanics). I even reported all of those gamebreakers in the bug report section. I also said that I understand that a weapon that lasts for 60 seconds has to be weaker than a weapon that lasts 30 seconds. Where do I argue against myself?

 

I also didn't say that faster summoning times would fix Firebrand. I want faster summoning times for all summoned weapons because I think 6 seconds of summoning + recovery is a bad joke (for several reasons which were stated before in several other threads. Since you like to search in older threads and quote from there to embarrass people, please go ahead). Until now, I saw no convincing arguments from your side why summoning times should be that long. Most replies of you circle around us being greedy or unreasonable - despite the points we made.

 

That has nothing to do with Firebrand specifically. I suggested to give Firebrand more base damage and/or Annihilation back in order to make it worthwhile. I also said that it doesn't have to be as strong as in PoE. For example Annihilation in Deadfire would only give +50% instead of +100% like in PoE. But at least it wouldn't be near useless (given the investment) like it currently is.

 

Actually your observation that a pick of Firebrand is a bad choice given how circumstancial its usefulness would be is one of the things I (and several others) mentioned in the first place and why I called for an improvement of stats in this particular case - AND YES: faster summoning times in general. Like we're getting now.

 

And now you're crestfallen because summoning times get reduced or what does this all mean? "Me and Josh, double team supreme, told you this is not right, but you unreasonable people are so pushy"?

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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From Josh

 

 

En Garde Mother****ers posted:

Do enemies empower skills in the beta currently? Will they get random empowers/depowers if resolve changes?

Enemies do not Empower currently. They would if these changes go through.

 

An important note: the Resolve-based random Empowers/Depowers would specifically only occur after a character has been in combat for more than a certain amount of time (e.g. 10 seconds). This is specifically to discourage save-scumming for a random alpha strike double Empower from stealth and similar tactics.

And

 

Samuel Clemens posted:

You can't empower auto-attacks right? So a passive build wouldn't get anything out of Resolve?

 

Looking forward to a TPK due to a randomly empowered dragon's breath.

You’d still gain Deflection and Will. There is no “purely” passive build in Deadfire unless you steadfastly refuse to use your 1st level active power.

This proposal limits the impact of Empower (outside of restoring resources) to +5 Power Levels instead of the current +10 (though that could still be attained on a double Empower). I.e., while an Empowered enemy ability could be nasty, the leap in power would not be astronomical.

Thank you for watching the SA forums for us! I never look there so I’m glad someone is watching and reposting.

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I also didn't say that faster summoning times would fix Firebrand. I want faster summoning times for all summoned weapons because I think 6 seconds of summoning + recovery is a bad joke (for several reasons which were stated before in several other threads. Since you like to search in older threads and quote from there to embarrass people, please go ahead). 

 

again, these kinda responses is nonsensical and patent unreasonable.  you want faster summoning times for all summoned weapons as if summoned weapons is equal problematic and subject to universal fixes. the problems o' summoned weapons is individual.  is no fundamental weaponess factor which makes 'em all subject to blanket solutions. is any number o' weapons which is powerful 'nuff and have such enduring durations that a long cast time is an obvious balance concession... no different than other casts.  reasonable.  

 

"That has nothing to do with Firebrand specifically."

 

and yet you are the guy who brought firebrand into the discussion as if it were the basis 'pon which other summoned weapon durations were to be judged.

 

similar, repeating back to Gromnir his own observations 'bout situational usefulness o' firebrand is kinda pointless.  the point were how arguing for longer durations and/or quickened casts would do nothing whatsoever to make the firebrand an attractive power choice outside o' rp considerations.  agree firebrand is situational useful utter ignores what made your demands for blanket quick casts and durations for summons unreasonable.  

 

*insert eye roll*

 

the silly and childish "crestfallen" shtick is amusing.  however, we will once again admit we find our self in the unusual situation o' needing sympathize with josh on this issue. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Josh

 

Hodgepodge posted:
I kinda think the most elegant solution is just doubling the bonus to Deflection from Resolve, and therefor the penalty for dumping it. Being able to build a glass cannon is fine, the question is how fragile one has to make them per point of benefit from doing so.
 
 I don't think this really solves one of the major issues, which is a lack of appeal* for casters. Tanks/front line characters already know to not dump Resolve or even to pump it if they want high Deflection. It just magnifies that split, inflating the upper end of Deflection for classes that were already taking it and lowering the bottom end for characters who largely don't care/work around it.
 

* Defensive stats, like Con and Resolve, are inherently less appealing than anything offensive/active. HP are at least clearly visible. Defenses feel like they are "under the hood" unless you're analyzing attack rolls. 

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Josh

 

Hieronymous Alloy posted:
The other thing that could really use further sorting out is the concentration/ interrupt mechanic. If "resolve gives more concentration over time" isn't the solution, then that doesn't just mean resolve needs something else; it also means something else needs to give concentration. There's a big issue right now where Wizards are just about the only class that has a strong Concentration buff ability.
 
Not true at all. Off the top of my head, fighters and priests both have easy access to personal and AoE Concentration, respectively (Disciplined Barrage, Holy Meditation). Paladins can grant it from a few different sources. Whiteleaf grants concentration, as does a potion of Spirit Shield. Though it's not in the current Backer Beta, there is a passive ability any class can take that grants 1 point of Concentration at the start of a fight. Any ability that grants the Resolute or Courageous Inspirations also inherently grants Concentration.
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again, these kinda responses is nonsensical and patent unreasonable. you want faster summoning times for all summoned weapons as if summoned weapons is equal problematic and subject to universal fixes. the problems o' summoned weapons is individual. is no fundamental weaponess factor which makes 'em all subject to blanket solutions.

I never said that nor did I mean it. Of course the problem of summoned weapons is individual! But that doesn't mean that I can't vote for faster summoning times in general because I think this would play better than very long summoning times (for several reasons that you all know).

 

and yet you are the guy who brought firebrand into the discussion as if it were the basis 'pon which other summoned weapon durations were to be judged.

I brought Firebrand up as an example to show that Josh's statement "summoned weapons are ludicrously powerful" was extremely hyperbolic. That statement was made to justify long summoning times - to balance them I guess.

I simply showed that this statement is (if not plainly wrong) too broad-brush.

Because of that I also said that several "features" which make some summoned weapons so powerful are actually bugs or oversights, and without them they wouldn't be so powerful anymore. And if they are not all that powerful in the first place - why the long casting times? If casting times were that long to balance out the power of summoned weapons - why has Firebrand a long casting time? It's a normal great sword with a different damage type! That's hardly ludicrous power. That's not even Dark Helmet power. So in my opinion this whole argument is not valid - that's why I brought up Firebrand as the most extreme example. Could have added Parasitic Staff as well.

 

I even said (now and in former discussions) that I would happily trade power for shorter summoning time in order to keep the balance. And that I think that this - while keeping balance - would improve the gameplay. I never asked for unreasonalbe moar power or something like you seem to imply.

 

All this doesn't sound unreasonable to me (but maybe I'm just not good at self-reflection...).

Yet you keep repeating yourself with "unreasonable".

 

similar, repeating back to Gromnir [...] is kinda pointless.

Answering to you is pointless in 90% of cases Gromnir. But some people still brace up and do so - I guess because they kinda like you no matter what. :p

 

the silly and childish "crestfallen" shtick is amusing.

If you have to mention it and call it silly and childish it can't have been too amusing.

You came around the corner with your usual uppity eyerolling demeanor - you deserved some childishness. ;)

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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Josh

 

Ultimately, this is a game steeped in D&D tropes. If you are expecting Deadfire to cleave away from D&D tropes more than it already is (i.e, not much), it is not going to happen. We're not going to get rid of an attribute on Deadfire and we're not going to get rid of attributes on Deadfire.

Edited by draego
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I thought about Josh's statement about the ludicrous summoned weapons again and wondered why he would say that - since the summoned weapons in the beta (on average) are not particularly powerful (if I assume that the gamebreaking effects like AoE afflicitions and crit/kill cascading effects will be fixed). I thought something like "Wait! Did he even use them?" or "Which other game with summoned weapons is he playing?". ;)

And then I thought a bit further: Josh is playing the nearly complete game now (playtesting week and so on) and knows all the summoned weapons. So it may be that there are summoned weapons on higher level tiers (Llengrath's Warding Staff and Blunt Wisdom, Rot Skulls, Cadebald's Blackbow) that are very powerful - so that this statement would be true.

 

But then I would ask: Why not having different summoning times? They also have different durations, so uniformity can't be the real reason.

If a summoned weapon is so good that it has to be balanced with longer summoning times - ok.
But why does this have to apply to all summoned weapons? Also when comparing it to summoning times in PoE. Was that so bad (even with regard to multiclassing)? As I said in another thread: summoned weapons are much more fun to use in Deadfire if their summoning time is shorter (see MaxQuests beta speed mod). Maybe they would have to be rebalanced (don't think so).
I think the decision to reduce summoning time is a good one. I'm not against longer summoning times for especially powerful summoned weapons though if the designers are convinced that this is the best way to balance them. 

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Because then you would have to have multiple variables for summon weapon times. And a system for categorization. And a few balance passes. And don’t forget to change all of them if you tweek something in a future patch.

"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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I validate Boeroer.

 

We can't do a general rule of all summoned weapon. Few summon are a pure loss of time VS "If I had attacked immediately"

 

Summon (include also invocations...) are overtime effect or damage. So a too long cast time is a nonsense.

Edited by theBalthazar
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Because then you would have to have multiple variables for summon weapon times. And a system for categorization. And a few balance passes. And don’t forget to change all of them if you tweek something in a future patch.

One might think. But there are different summoning times for weapons in Deadfire already. Look at The Long Pain for example: short summoning time, short(ish) duration.

 

I don't quite agree that summoning times for weapons and summoning times for creatures are the same stuff. The creatures are very potent because of their use as cannon-fodder, distraction and body-blocking (not even looking at their stats and abilites). So I can understand why a few summons that pop up right at the start of an encounter would be too good.

Edited by Boeroer

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Because then you would have to have multiple variables for summon weapon times.

Isn't "summoning time" simply the time it takes to cast and recover from the spell that summons the weapon? If so these variables already exist, as they do for all spells. Nothing new has to be introduced.

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