Malcador Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/04/bill-clinton-nato-expansion-ukraine/629499/ Clinton on NATO expansion Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61028380 I don't know how reliable Der Spiegel is as a source, but according to them, The BND (German Intelligence Service I think, Bundesnachrichtendienst or some such) intercepted radio communication between the Russian troops in Bucha, leading up to massacre of the civilians. According to Spiegel, the intercepts also appeared to indicate that mercenaries from Russia's private Wagner group played a key role in the Bucha killings. Wagner is known for callous brutality in previous theatres of war... “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Doubt it was Wagner. Certainly not because they're incapable of atrocities though, they most certainly are. Mostly because they seem to only pop up in Ukraine when a boogie man is needed and all the intelligence on them is mutually contradictory. eg I think someone else linked Wagner casualties as being 4000 dead weeks ago, which is more than they even have employed. Indeed British Intelligence has them only deploying about 10 days ago, and to eastern Ukraine. That's not the only report of them deploying though, to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 It just fits the MO of Wagner better than the regular Russian army. Not that the Russians don't kill civilians, they do, a lot. But it's usually more a "convenience" thing. Lets flatten those residential areas rather than fighting block to black and door to door kind of way. Bucha was atrocities for atrocities sake, somebody who wanted it to be seen and known. “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 That doesn't really fit what happened though. If they wanted it publicised to frighten others into submission or whatever they'd have, well, publicised it. As it is it's only come out after they've withdrawn. Wagner's certainly more of a "let's do something monumentally stupid, and let's film ourselves doing it so we get a reputation" sort of group when it comes to violence given some of their conduct in Syria and CAR. But that doesn't fit Bucha well at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Zoraptor said: The depression in winter thing has a proper medical term: Seasonal Affective Disorder. Though technically it applies if a mental illness is regularly/ cyclically worse in any season, not just winter. Spring is the worst season for suicides and less obviously the worst season for anxiety. Possibly because of the symbolism ("the world is waking up but I am not"), possibly because of what the increased amount of light and warmth does to us. Hard to get to the bottom of it. But "flowers bloom like madness in the spring" (Jethro Tull). Edited April 8, 2022 by xzar_monty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 All this posturing, grandstanding and fake news almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter. 1 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComradeYellow Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 I'm starting to believe the crazies when they say only an alien invasion could save the human species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chilloutman Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 I mean I know Russians are ... confused ... but this? xD https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-lavrov-says-belarus-should-become-security-guarantor-ukraine-2022-04-08/ 3 I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Chilloutman said: I mean I know Russians are ... confused ... but this? xD https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-lavrov-says-belarus-should-become-security-guarantor-ukraine-2022-04-08/ Which would no doubt involve the stationing of a large contingent of Belarussian troops in Ukraine? “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Lavrov is a troll. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanisatha Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Gorth said: It just fits the MO of Wagner better than the regular Russian army. Not that the Russians don't kill civilians, they do, a lot. But it's usually more a "convenience" thing. Lets flatten those residential areas rather than fighting block to black and door to door kind of way. Bucha was atrocities for atrocities sake, somebody who wanted it to be seen and known. A lot of the civilians murdered in Bucha were decapitated. Many had been tortured first before being killed. Sounds very much like Wagner and/or Kadyrov's thugs to me. But what's now happening in Mariupol and surrounding smaller towns is several orders of magnitude worse than Bucha. Estimates are that over 5,000 civilians have been killed thus far (just in the Mariupol area), with some 100,000 trapped and facing starvation. Edited April 8, 2022 by kanisatha 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexx Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 Haven't seen any decapitation reports. "only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanisatha Posted April 8, 2022 Share Posted April 8, 2022 35 minutes ago, Lexx said: Haven't seen any decapitation reports. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/04/06/bucha-barbarism-atrocities-russian-soldiers/ https://www.tweet247.net/news/world/in-bucha-ukraine-evidence-of-torture-beheadings-by-russian-soldiers https://twitter.com/maxbearak/status/1511947644788170756 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 (edited) https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-it-would-have-rebalance-if-finland-sweden-join-nato-2022-04-07/ The negotiations for both Sweden and Finland to join NATO are under way and Putins threats are ironic considering Putins War is responsible for this possible outcome But more important @Elerond, @Azdeus, @Pidesco what do you guys personally think and what is the general sentiment from people you know about joining NATO? Edited April 9, 2022 by BruceVC 3 "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azdeus Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Hard pass on NATO. Had USA not invoked article 5 on 9/11 I might've had a different view. 1 Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katphood Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Spot on. 2 3 There used to be a signature here, a really cool one...and now it's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 40 minutes ago, Azdeus said: Hard pass on NATO. Had USA not invoked article 5 on 9/11 I might've had a different view. Yes I can understand this view, Codex Swedish members are saying the same thing I also cant imagine Sweden going to war in a NATO campaign? I can see Denmark and Finland but not you guys "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 35 minutes ago, Katphood said: Spot on. That was really cute, shame that poor bear "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmp10 Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Russia is rumored to be mobilizing reservists.Also reworking the command structure. Pretty much buries all peace hopes at least until next Russian offensive plays-out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanisatha Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 6 hours ago, BruceVC said: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-it-would-have-rebalance-if-finland-sweden-join-nato-2022-04-07/ The negotiations for both Sweden and Finland to join NATO are under way and Putins threats are ironic considering Putins War is responsible for this possible outcome But more important @Elerond, @Azdeus, @Pidesco what do you guys personally think and what is the general sentiment from people you know about joining NATO? Russia's position now is a very sharp contrast with its position a couple of months ago, when it explicitly threatened a military response to these countries joining NATO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanisatha Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 6 hours ago, Azdeus said: Hard pass on NATO. Had USA not invoked article 5 on 9/11 I might've had a different view. So then would you say there should be no Article 5 response in case of a 9/11-style attack on any other NATO member (including potentially Sweden)? Or is this just for the US? I'm trying to understand your logic here because the 9/11 attack fully satisfied Article 5 conditions. Also, I vaguely recall that it was NATO, led by France, that invoked Article 5 after 9/11, and not the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totally not Gorgon Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 mmm. NATO responded more out of a sense of gratitude towards the US for the resources it had poured into the alliance, as well as in realization that it was the first time anyone had ever activated the "musketeer oath". If it didn't respond the one time it was actually needed, that might pose some serious questions as to its future usefulness. But, it's actually pretty dubious whether there was any threat to US territory. Which was always the situation imagined. It was a case of "close enough". I suppose. Article 5 is the fire alarm, you can't have it not work, it has to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjshae Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 Yes, most NATO members called for invocation of Article 5 immediately after 9/11. However, there's a certain flexibility in the level of support required to satisfy Article 5, and many countries supplied only token troops to Afghanistan. NATO is still living with the consequences of a historic decision it made hours after 9/11 Military alliances are always a challenge; it's often easier from a command perspective to go it alone. 1 "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mamoulian War Posted April 9, 2022 Share Posted April 9, 2022 On 4/6/2022 at 8:03 AM, BruceVC said: You funny Gorthfuscious By the way I was hoping the hotties from Juice Media would make a Russian " special military operation " video. Can you imagine how hilarious that would be but I dont think Juice Media does videos outside of Oz ? they do Sent from my Stone Tablet, using Chisel-a-Talk 2000BC. My youtube channel: MamoulianFH Latest Let's Play Tales of Arise (completed) Latest Bossfight Compilation Dark Souls Remastered - New Game (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 1: Austria Grand Campaign (completed) Let's Play/AAR Europa Universalis 2: Xhosa Grand Campaign (completed) My PS Platinums and 100% - 29 games so far (my PSN profile) 1) God of War III - PS3 - 24+ hours 2) Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 130+ hours 3) White Knight Chronicles International Edition - PS3 - 525+ hours 4) Hyperdimension Neptunia - PS3 - 80+ hours 5) Final Fantasy XIII-2 - PS3 - 200+ hours 6) Tales of Xillia - PS3 - 135+ hours 7) Hyperdimension Neptunia mk2 - PS3 - 152+ hours 8.) Grand Turismo 6 - PS3 - 81+ hours (including Senna Master DLC) 9) Demon's Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 10) Tales of Graces f - PS3 - 337+ hours 11) Star Ocean: The Last Hope International - PS3 - 750+ hours 12) Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII - PS3 - 127+ hours 13) Soulcalibur V - PS3 - 73+ hours 14) Gran Turismo 5 - PS3 - 600+ hours 15) Tales of Xillia 2 - PS3 - 302+ hours 16) Mortal Kombat XL - PS4 - 95+ hours 17) Project CARS Game of the Year Edition - PS4 - 120+ hours 18) Dark Souls - PS3 - 197+ hours 19) Hyperdimension Neptunia Victory - PS3 - 238+ hours 20) Final Fantasy Type-0 - PS4 - 58+ hours 21) Journey - PS4 - 9+ hours 22) Dark Souls II - PS3 - 210+ hours 23) Fairy Fencer F - PS3 - 215+ hours 24) Megadimension Neptunia VII - PS4 - 160 hours 25) Super Neptunia RPG - PS4 - 44+ hours 26) Journey - PS3 - 22+ hours 27) Final Fantasy XV - PS4 - 263+ hours (including all DLCs) 28) Tales of Arise - PS4 - 111+ hours 29) Dark Souls: Remastered - PS4 - 121+ hours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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