One Word - Multiclassing!

[Eurhetemec]

 

This is the text. Question asked by mistercrowley101.

Btw it's from tweeter. If have an account you can follow Sawyer there and get the updates too

"There are a few keys to making Deadfire’s multiclassing work in ways that 2nd Ed/3E multiclassing generally does not.   I’ll go into this in detail in an update next week, but it was the subject of a large amount of design internally.

In the end, our math is balanced such that, e.g., a fighter 6/druid 6 (displayed collectively as a 12th level warden, btw) has about 75%-85% of the fighter power and druid power as a 12th level fighter or a 12th level druid.

That may seem odd, but what we found in looking at various multiclass combinations from different editions of A/D&D is that the 50/50 power splits (e.g. 3E wizard/clerics) are the ones that perform and feel the worst.  The ones that operate in the 90%+ efficacy band compared to single-classed characters feel like no-brainers.  The 75-85% range is powerful enough that the combinations don’t under-perform, but they don’t inherently outshine the single-class characters.

While the numbers for all of these calculations will be available for players in game, our goal is that someone who multiclasses because they have a specific character concept and isn’t going to min-max everything will have a viable and good and cool character.  Min-maxers can go to town and eke out marginal gains, but they should be just that: marginal."

 

 

Sounds like 2E or 5E's multiclassing when it worked properly, which is ideal, I feel. That's real multiclassing which works without being overpowered or underpowered (well, 2E could be OP at times but rarely and usually only for a level or two before single-classers pulled ahead again).

[Aotrs Commander]

Yeah, that sounds about right. Whie I was toying around with the PrC I mentined upthread, I had a serious discussion with folk about really where a partial class ought to be in 3.x, which suggested that they ought only to be a level or two behind, rather than like, half. 75% sounds about right, I reckon.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah, this sounds very promising.

[FlintlockJazz]

Brief details about multiclassing

http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/156540101641/i-know-that-you-tried-to-avoid-trap-builds-in-poe

 

 

 

This is the text. Question asked by mistercrowley101.

Btw it's from tweeter. If have an account you can follow Sawyer there and get the updates too

"There are a few keys to making Deadfire’s multiclassing work in ways that 2nd Ed/3E multiclassing generally does not.   I’ll go into this in detail in an update next week, but it was the subject of a large amount of design internally.

In the end, our math is balanced such that, e.g., a fighter 6/druid 6 (displayed collectively as a 12th level warden, btw) has about 75%-85% of the fighter power and druid power as a 12th level fighter or a 12th level druid.

That may seem odd, but what we found in looking at various multiclass combinations from different editions of A/D&D is that the 50/50 power splits (e.g. 3E wizard/clerics) are the ones that perform and feel the worst.  The ones that operate in the 90%+ efficacy band compared to single-classed characters feel like no-brainers.  The 75-85% range is powerful enough that the combinations don’t under-perform, but they don’t inherently outshine the single-class characters.

While the numbers for all of these calculations will be available for players in game, our goal is that someone who multiclasses because they have a specific character concept and isn’t going to min-max everything will have a viable and good and cool character.  Min-maxers can go to town and eke out marginal gains, but they should be just that: marginal."

 

Cheers I was actually just planning on asking how people reckoned certain things would scale with multiclassing such as the Ranger's pet when I saw your posts.  This sorta answers my questions, in that we can expect the ranger pet to still scale to some degree with the total levels of the character rather than just the Ranger level, but the specific mechanics have yet to be revealed. 

 

I do wonder if sub-classes work with multiclassing, part of me says that it shouldn't, that you should have to choose between either multi-classing or sub-classing like you did in Baldur's Gate 2, that subclassing is a reward for specialising but that could be nostalgia talking.

[L4wlight]

Josh revealed some more information about multiclassing:

 

[morhilane]

Classes have power source now...and ability trees?!?

 

Now I want to see that UI...

Edited January 31, 2017 by morhilane

[illathid]

I'm guessing every class will have a unique power source? Otherwise it'd mean multi-classing could be a no-brainer for the overlapping classes.

 

Unless they make "prestige" classes that share the same powersource as the base class, and are expected to be used.

[kirottu]

Josh revealed some more information about multiclassing:

 

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Sounds interesting. I can't wait to see that video.

[jones092201]

i'm really looking forward to my bleaker walker/ kind warefarer mutli-class.

and my Priest of Eothas/Priest of Magran monster.

[MaxQuest]

Josh revealed some more information about multiclassing

I really like where it is going)

 

Although (basing on the information we currently have) it seems Josh wasn't completely sincere on the "multiclassing ins't mean to be a no brainer")

A level 18 fighter would have 54 discipline points and 18 virtual.

A level 17 fighter and 1 level in rogue would have 52 discipline points and 20 guile.

 

If next-tier spells and abilities will be available at the odd levels (like it was in PoE1: Dragon Trashed on lvl 9, Sacred Immolation on 13, and so on), sacrificing 18th level would actually be a no brainer

 

The easy way to think of it is that Power Source advances on scale 0-2=0, 3-5=1, 6-8=2, etc. It's not a linear progression, but it is tuned to produce the outcomes that we want.

Cannot wait to learn more details

Playing with NWN2 builds, trying to find the most optimal combination was so much fun)

Edited January 31, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Lamppost in Winter]

 

 

Rogues in Deadfire have a heavier emphasis on high damage from their active abilities

 

 Have to see more, but I don't like the sound of this. Just hope these aren't universally applicable "this attack does a lot of damage" abilities. I liked the PoE rogue model of applying debuffs then getting sneak attack damage off those.

[tinysalamander]

i'm really looking forward to my bleaker walker/ kind warefarer mutli-class.

and my Priest of Eothas/Priest of Magran monster.

 

I don’t think you’ll be able to multiclass into the same class. At least that’s how it is usually done.

[Gromnir]

 

i'm really looking forward to my bleaker walker/ kind warefarer mutli-class.

and my Priest of Eothas/Priest of Magran monster.

 

I don’t think you’ll be able to multiclass into the same class. At least that’s how it is usually done.

 

though a priest eothas/bleak walker paladin would be curious.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Doppelschwert]

My guess would be that they let most abilities scale with class level, in order to evade the powergaming issues that arose in DnD 3.X with abilities scaling only with attributes (for example, the charisma bonus to saves of paladins at lvl 2, which is a common dip in powerbuilds).

Then it would make sense to introduce a scaling parameter in order to convert class levels from a different class into this progression (think raising the effective class level/ caster level in DnD 3.X).

 

I imagine something like a parameter z between 0 and 1 that does the following:

If you have a levels in class A and b levels in class B, then a+zb is your effective class level for determining the strength of abilities from class A, and az+b is the same for class B.

 

Choosing z=0 gets you the situation in DnD 3.X: If you take 6 lvls wizard and 6 lvls cleric, your caster level in both will be 6+0*6=6.

z=0.5 yields a caster level of 6+0.5*6=9, so about 75% progression of the single classes at lvl 12.

Setting z close to 1 yields the situation of DnD2, where due to exponential exp tables, you would only lack one level behind in both classes during multiclassing.

 

This makes sure there is a trade-off in power in abilities, besides the trade off in available abilities, which probably works like you would expect it to.

 

Wow, I feel like winning the lottery. Looks like josh decided to set z=1/3.

Interesting news overall, and the system is set up to not go out of control too much. Looks like it will finally be feasible to explore all of the 121 combinations available and make them work into interesting builds without the need of some prestige classes to patch them up.

I'm really impressed with PoE2 - I'm getting to the point where I can't think of anything that could be improved in the first game that they did not already adress.

 

 

[Ganrich]

 

My guess would be that they let most abilities scale with class level, in order to evade the powergaming issues that arose in DnD 3.X with abilities scaling only with attributes (for example, the charisma bonus to saves of paladins at lvl 2, which is a common dip in powerbuilds).

Then it would make sense to introduce a scaling parameter in order to convert class levels from a different class into this progression (think raising the effective class level/ caster level in DnD 3.X).

I imagine something like a parameter z between 0 and 1 that does the following:

If you have a levels in class A and b levels in class B, then a+zb is your effective class level for determining the strength of abilities from class A, and az+b is the same for class B.

Choosing z=0 gets you the situation in DnD 3.X: If you take 6 lvls wizard and 6 lvls cleric, your caster level in both will be 6+0*6=6.

z=0.5 yields a caster level of 6+0.5*6=9, so about 75% progression of the single classes at lvl 12.

Setting z close to 1 yields the situation of DnD2, where due to exponential exp tables, you would only lack one level behind in both classes during multiclassing.

This makes sure there is a trade-off in power in abilities, besides the trade off in available abilities, which probably works like you would expect it to.

 

 

Wow, I feel like winning the lottery. Looks like josh decided to set z=1/3.

Interesting news overall, and the system is set up to not go out of control too much. Looks like it will finally be feasible to explore all of the 121 combinations available and make them work into interesting builds without the need of some prestige classes to patch them up.

I'm really impressed with PoE2 - I'm getting to the point where I can't think of anything that could be improved in the first game that they did not already adress.

Stronghold replaced by a ship, and ship combat. That's all I would add. What's a pirate-sequel themed RPG without ships? Anyway, YMMV.

[kirottu]

Josh revealed some more information about multiclassing:

 

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I was looking these through again and since every class has its own power source(arcane, guile, discipline) does it mean might is out? 

[Yonjuro]

...

I was looking these through again and since every class has its own power source(arcane, guile, discipline) does it mean might is out? 

 

 

 We still need the details, but I think the idea is more like the power source being used to buy class abilities, e.g. number of spell slots for a wizard. Having more arcane power gives more spell slots but damage, area of effect etc. are still controlled by the stats. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Yonjuro

[Doppelschwert]

 

I'm really impressed with PoE2 - I'm getting to the point where I can't think of anything that could be improved in the first game that they did not already adress.

Stronghold replaced by a ship, and ship combat. That's all I would add. What's a pirate-sequel themed RPG without ships? Anyway, YMMV.

 

 

Well, I'm already convinced that a ship will be the new stronghold. Don't know about ship combat, but to be quite honest, I'm not so big on pirate settings in general. I can enjoy them, but I prefer fantasy much more.

 

 

...

I was looking these through again and since every class has its own power source(arcane, guile, discipline) does it mean might is out?

 

 We still need the details, but I think the idea is more like the power source being used to buy class abilities, e.g. number of spell slots for a wizard. Having more arcane power gives more spell slots but damage, area of effect etc. are still controlled by the stats.

 

 

I agree that we need details, but from what has been posted so far, I understand the system to work differently than you describe it. From what josh said, there are two things for each class, ressource and power level, where the later is a function of the former:

 

Power Source is what grants access to abilities and increases the power of those abilities.

 

The strength of abilities will be influenced by both attributes and class advancement. Thus the wizard would get both more spell slots and increased effect of their spells.

 

The posts about the power source tables basically describe that while dual classing, everytime you get one level in a class, you get the third of a level in the other class, both in terms of unlocking things and ability scaling.

So if you make a split 1 Rogue / 17 Fighter, your unlocked Rogue abilities will have a roughly comparable power to those of a pure Rogue at lvl 6, while your Fighter abilities equal those of a lvl 17 Fighter. The sum 17+6=23 is bigger then 18 of course, but the question is whether the Rogue abilities will still be competetive in the endgame, lacking 12 lvls of scaling compared to a pure Rogue.

 

The system is nice since it promotes a more even split between classes (according to josh, using all abilities when you split 50:50 feels right powerwise), but if you only care about some cool ability that rogues unlock at lvl 4, a single level dip may very well be worth it for an overall built. The implication is also that you will get one class at least to lvl 12 in terms of progression when you hit lvl 18, and that you can basically decide where your effective class levels will roughly end up on the line segment between (18/6) and (6/18) (without those endpoints).

 

That is, if they deliver a well balanced implementation of the concepts that josh described.

Edited February 1, 2017 by Doppelschwert

[Sedrefilos]

Keep calm and wait video update

[theBalthazar]

Hum....

 

I hope a good multi-class...

 

It's  ironical if it will  always better  to stay with  a solo class, at  the end.  (for 100 % perform in each class)

 

Be careful  Obsidian, don't kill multi-class. 

 

Concept of "Good in neither of the two".  With this idea I prefer  stay with solo class and remain effective.

[Yonjuro]

 

 

 

...

 

 We still need the details, but I think the idea is more like the power source being used to buy class abilities, e.g. number of spell slots for a wizard. Having more arcane power gives more spell slots but damage, area of effect etc. are still controlled by the stats.

 

 

I agree that we need details, but from what has been posted so far, I understand the system to work differently than you describe it. From what josh said, there are two things for each class, ressource and power level, where the later is a function of the former:

 

Power Source is what grants access to abilities and increases the power of those abilities.

 

The strength of abilities will be influenced by both attributes and class advancement. Thus the wizard would get both more spell slots and increased effect of their spells.

 

 I think that's right. I really meant to say that attributes still matter.

 

 

 

 

 The implication is also that you will get one class at least to lvl 12 in terms of progression when you hit lvl 18, and that you can basically decide where your effective class levels will roughly end up on the line segment between (18/6) and (6/18) (without those endpoints).

 

 If I understand you, I think it's (17,6) and (6,17) inclusive or else 18,0 (for a single class)?

 

 Essentially, a single level at the end would need to be worth approximately 6 levels in a second class for single classes to be competitive with grabbing a level in a second class. 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Yonjuro

[Archaven]

So i read on Fig is that most characters will have it's own look regardless of what armor or weapons you equip your party characters. With multi-classing, it's actually possible that Eder can be a Fighter/Wizard or a Rogue/Priest. Feargue mentioned someone actually equipped Eder with a robe and he said they'll disallow that.

 

What's folk thoughts about this? If Eder is a fighter/wizard or a rogue/priest, then having him wearing a robe actually matches his role. Is it not?

 

Also i'm a little worried over pure classes here. If multi-class being too viable (as devs mentioned it will be around 75-85%) of what pure class would be, then there would essentially be no benefits of choosing pure classes over multi-class?

Edited February 1, 2017 by Archaven

[Lamppost in Winter]

So i read on Fig is that most characters will have it's own look regardless of what armor or weapons you equip your party characters. With multi-classing, it's actually possible that Eder can be a Fighter/Wizard or a Rogue/Priest. Feargue mentioned someone actually equipped Eder with a robe and he said they'll disallow that.

 

What's folk thoughts about this? If Eder is a fighter/wizard or a rogue/priest, then having him wearing a robe actually matches his role. Is it not?

 

The quote in question:

 

 

 

They will have a consistent look when using their own armor / weapons. If you give them different armor and weapons then they'll look like that. There's a picture of Eder wearing Aloth's rob's in or blog. That'll be restricted, but it looked kind of funny.

 

 I think that means that their unique equipment has that consistent look, but not if you give them generic equipment, and that it's Aloth's robe that's restricted, not any robe. At least I hope so.

[morhilane]

I was looking these through again and since every class has its own power source(arcane, guile, discipline) does it mean might is out?

 

The power source doesn't seem to be an attribute you can raise like Might. It's seems to be tied to your character level so they can do that 75%/75% power level thing when multiclassing. Going by Josh's explanation, it works as the real level of a class for your character in term of unlocking and scaling abilities (note abilities didn't scale in the first game). So a not multiclassed character will have 100% of the power source value, while a multiclassed one will have ~75% of the power source of is full combined character level).

 

example:

A Fighter level 10 will have Discipline at 10.

A Fighter/Rogue level 5/5 will have Disciple at 7 and Guile at 7.

 

At least, that's how I understood it.

 

[skip]

 

 

 I think that means that their unique equipment has that consistent look, but not if you give them generic equipment, and that it's Aloth's robe that's restricted, not any robe. At least I hope so.

 

Some items were restricted to the companion in the first game already, so that's probably what is restricted (Aloth's new robe). 

[MaxQuest]

example:

A Fighter level 10 will have Discipline at 10.

A Fighter/Rogue level 5/5 will have Disciple at 7 and Guile at 7.

 

At least, that's how I understood it.

Judging by this reply, it looks like:

A Fighter level 10 will have Discipline at 30 + 10 virtual points. (that's also were his 0.75 is coming from: 3/4)

A Fighter/Rogue level 5/5 will have Discipline at 20 and Guile at 20. (20 = 5*3 + 5*1)

 

Also, correct me if I understood wrong, 20 [power source] corresponds to 6 [power level], i.e. power_level = Math.floor(power_source / 3), or as Josh wrote it:

0-2=0, 3-5=1, 6-8=2, etc

 

So a 5/5 fighter/rogue split, has the same power level as [fighter level 6] plus [rogue level 6].

On the other hand a 6/5 fighter/rogue, would have 23 discipline and 21 guile, making him of the same power level as a [fighter level 7] plus [rogue level 7].

And one more example: a 9/1 fighter/rogue, would have 28 discipline and 12 guile, making him of the same power level as [fighter level 9] plus [rogue level 4].

Edited February 1, 2017 by MaxQuest