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One Word - Multiclassing!

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Aotrs Commander

Aotrs Commander

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Edit: MaxQuest not only beat me to it while I was typing this reply, but his maths was even right...! (I've corrected mine so as not to confuse people further...!)

 

 

 

I was looking these through again and since every class has its own power source(arcane, guile, discipline) does it mean might is out?

 
The power source doesn't seem to be an attribute you can raise like Might. It's seems to be tied to your character level so they can do that 75%/75% power level thing when multiclassing. Going by Josh's explanation, it works as the real level of a class for your character in term of unlocking and scaling abilities (note abilities didn't scale in the first game). So a not multiclassed character will have 100% of the power source value, while a multiclassed one will have ~75% of the power source of is full combined character level).

 

example:

A Fighter level 10 will have Discipline at 10.

A Fighter/Rogue level 5/5 will have Disciple at 7 and Guile at 7.

 

That would be my understanding.

 

I think it might help if you imagine that "power source" equates to "character class level."  A bit like, how in D&D 3.x, if you had a spellcaster, a prestidge class would increase your character's level for the purposes of the caster level and number of spells you could cast (without giving you nay of the other class features).

 

Only in this case - to use the apparently over simplicifcation from the blog, every three points of "power source" gives your character the class features of a level of the class. So, for a single class character (which gets three points per level), one level you take in a class gives you one level of powers and features of that class (no duh!). But if you multiclass, you basically get one-third of a level in your other classes every time you take one class level.

 

So, to (I think) slightly clarify and/or correct use the example above, a 10th level fighter has 30 points of power source in Disipline, which gives it the powers of a 10th level fighter.

 

A 5/5 Fighter/Rogue gets 15+5 (=20) points of Discipline and 5+15 (=20) points of Guile, giving it the powers of (assuming it is indeed every three) a 6th level fighter and 6th level rogue. If they take one more level of say, fighter - taking it to 18+5 (=23)/6+15 (=21), it has the power of an 7th level fighter/7th level Rogue. (Verses an equivient 11th level fighter.)

 

Though from the blog, the numbers are more granular than that, so the progression might be smoother, but that gives you the idea, I hope.

 

It's rather clever, actually.

Edited by Aotrs Commander
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Gromnir

Gromnir

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perhaps we missed something, but didn't josh claim he had (past tense) uploaded a video update explaining multiclass in poe2? any notion as to when we will get to see said video?

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Leferd

Leferd

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I believe Feargus said this week. Maybe Thursday for Josh's update?

Edited by Leferd

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Ganrich

Ganrich

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I believe Feargus said this week. Maybe Thursday for Josh's update?

Feargus said a possible update today, and another one potentially later this week. One of those may be a video. Plus Josh's twitch stream. That's what I've coerced out of him. Lol

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Ganrich

Ganrich

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Can we multiclass every character? Like can the multiclasses be any combination of the possible eleven base classes? Can kits (subclasses) be multiclassed?

As of right now, yes. Josh said as much on tonight's stream. There seems to be some push and pull whether they go with a system like 2nd edition (Classes level simultaneously) or 3rd edition (you pick which class levels at level up), though. Right now it is more like 3rd, but said to discuss it, and that it could be changed. I'd prefer the latter (3rd edition).

 

He also said Subclasses will be a trade off, and not necessarily better than the core class. They don't want to make the core class obsolete.

 

Edit: I believe he said that Companions may be more limited in their Multiclassing based on what fits their character, but that isn't nailed down. IIRC.

Edited by Ganrich
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Carados

Carados

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Thanks for the info guys.  Hopefully they upload the twitch stream soon. All that sounds really intresting. However I wonder how does it work thematically. Something like a druid-paladin or a monk-barbarian feels slightly weird. Weird can be good ofcourse and it will certainly allow us to create all kinds of crazy builds and write somewhat exotic backstories for our characters... :)

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Ganrich

Ganrich

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Your Druid decided to join an Order? Or your Paladin was gifted by Galawain? Your barbarian has decided to be more disciplined and his rage is fueled by injuries? Your Monk is becoming more savage as he experiences more combat, or his Watcher status is making him unhinged? I don't know. I think you could think up a lot of cool ideas. Some subclasses might play into this even more/better than the base classes.

 

You're right, though. Build options will be insane in Deadfire, and potential backstories will be a lot of fun.

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Aramintai

Aramintai

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I haven't played any tabletop AD&D but have played lots of AD&D CRPGs and I must say I always preferred 2nd edition to 3d edition. It's more simple, clean and easy to plan on. Never liked 3d edition with no attributes ceiling and all that ridiculous multi-classing leading to some crazy overpowered builds like, for example, Bard/Red dragon disciple/Pale master in NWN. The only two things in 3d edition, imho, that were a good new addition were prestige classes and active abilities for melee/ranged classes. So I'd say my most favourite game concerning editions is Baldur's Gate 2 which uses 2nd edition rules but also has kits (that became prestige classes in 3d ed). Feel free to bash it, but it's my video game player opinion.

 

As for PoE, it already has active abilities for melee\ranged classes, so that's covered. If they add 2nd AD&D edition style multi-classes with kits aka. subclasses I'd be very happy.

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Blarghagh

Blarghagh

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Well an equivelant to Bard/Red Dragon Disciple/Pale Master won't be possible I believe? Didn't they say max two classes?

 

I'm not concerned about other people making crazy op builds. I've never been sure why in a single player game everything needs to be perfectly balanced. I don't care if one combo is optimal as long as the others are viable.

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Doppelschwert

Doppelschwert

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The implication is also that you will get one class at least to lvl 12 in terms of progression when you hit lvl 18, and that you can basically decide where your effective class levels will roughly end up on the line segment between (18/6) and (6/18) (without those endpoints).

 

 If I understand you, I think it's (17,6) and (6,17) inclusive or else 18,0 (for a single class)?

 

 Essentially, a single level at the end would need to be worth approximately 6 levels in a second class for single classes to be competitive with grabbing a level in a second class.

 

 

Yeah, thats how I understand it as well, I just wanted to simplify the notation. The available range for 'fractional' class levels at character level 18 is either [18/0] or  [18-2/3x  /  6+2/3x] or [0/18] where x are the levels in the second class and range from 1 to 17.

I'd hope that these fractional values go into scaling abilities (multiply them by 3 and you recover the advancement points, which would make abilities scale linearly with those) while the rounded down values govern access to class abilities, and represent class level. If they only used the rounded down version for both, that would make the scaling pretty uneven, and you would lose out by not taking a multiple of 3 levels in each class. So letting x run through 1 to 9 we end up with effective class levels

 

18/0, 17/6, 16/7, 16/8, 15/8, 14/9, 14/10, 13/10, 12/11, 12/12

 

As you can see, when x is a multiple of 3, we have effectively 24 combined levels, while the others have 23. If the fractional levels don't scale at least, then it's probably strictly better in some situations to go with a multiple of 3.

 

The sweet spots seem to be  16/8 and 12/12, which correspond to lvls 15/3 and 9/9. I'm not sure if 18/0 would really be better than 17/1.

 

Edit: MaxQuest not only beat me to it while I was typing this reply, but his maths was even right...!

I also beat you to it if you go some further posts back ;)

Edited by Doppelschwert
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Aramintai

Aramintai

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Well an equivelant to Bard/Red Dragon Disciple/Pale Master won't be possible I believe? Didn't they say max two classes?

 

I'm not concerned about other people making crazy op builds. I've never been sure why in a single player game everything needs to be perfectly balanced. I don't care if one combo is optimal as long as the others are viable.

Personally, I don't like this because my characters' classes are usually tied to their backstory as I see it. But in some games after seeing some ridiculous numbers some multiclass combos can do I start to feel that my character's build is inferior and feel pressed to change both class and headcanon. And all of this is happening because of poor balancing - every class or multiclass should feel as powerful as the other, imho, but when some of them greatly overpower others it pisses me off.

Edited by Aramintai
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Blarghagh

Blarghagh

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Fair enough. I disagree, and I fail to see how your problem seperating viable from optimal should be anybody else's burden, but I'm sure more people feel that way and if it's enough, then Obs should act on it by balancing. Personally I feel like all classes should feel powerful, but it doesn't matter to me if one of them is more powerful than the other. Heck, half the time I gimp myself because I don't like minmaxing - I prefer to have a believable, balanced character than for example dumping int and having the "headcanon" of my character being an idiot because it's more optimal to play the class that way.

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MaxQuest

MaxQuest

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I've never been sure why in a single player game everything needs to be perfectly balanced. I don't care if one combo is optimal as long as the others are viable.

If a player likes to experiment, but feels pleasure mostly when playing / coming-up with an optimal build, he will feel very limited if many choices are clearly subpar.

 

The sweet spots seem to be  16/8 and 12/12, which correspond to lvls 15/3 and 9/9. I'm not sure if 18/0 would really be better than 17/1.

Unless there will be some epic feats or specializations, or we'll be getting access to next tier spells at even levels, 17/1 is indeed likely to be better than 18/0 in majority of cases.

Also there is one more sweet spot at 14+10 power_level, which corresponds to 12/6 lvl split :)

 

 

lvl (18 + 0) = power_source points: 54 + 18 | power_level = 18 (note: those 18 points are virtual and will be unused)
lvl (17 + 1) = power_source points: 52 + 20 | power_level = 17 + 6
lvl (16 + 2) = power_source points: 50 + 22 | power_level = 16 + 7
lvl (15 + 3) = power_source points: 48 + 24 | power_level = 16 + 8 (ss: 24)
lvl (14 + 4) = power_source points: 46 + 26 | power_level = 15 + 8
lvl (13 + 5) = power_source points: 44 + 28 | power_level = 14 + 9
lvl (12 + 6) = power_source points: 42 + 30 | power_level = 14 + 10 (ss: 24)
lvl (11 + 7) = power_source points: 40 + 32 | power_level = 13 + 10
lvl (10 +  = power_source points: 38 + 34 | power_level = 12 + 11
lvl ( 9 + 9) = power_source points: 36 + 36 | power_level = 12 + 12 (ss: 24)

 

 

Although it's also very important:

- at what levels exactly will we be getting some key spells and abilities (think Dragon Thrashed, Sacred Immolation, Shining Beacon, Minor Avatar, Kalakoth's Minor Blights, etc)

- and how the damage will scale with source_points.

Edited by MaxQuest
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Doppelschwert

Doppelschwert

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The sweet spots seem to be  16/8 and 12/12, which correspond to lvls 15/3 and 9/9. I'm not sure if 18/0 would really be better than 17/1.

 

Unless there will be some epic feats or specializations, or we'll be getting access to next tier spells at even levels, 17/1 is indeed likely to be better than 18/0 in majority of cases.

Also there is one more sweet spot at 14+10 power_level, which corresponds to 12/6 lvl split :)

 

Although it's also very important:

- at what levels exactly will we be getting some key spells and abilities (think Dragon Thrashed, Sacred Immolation, Shining Beacon, Minor Avatar, Kalakoth's Minor Blights, etc)

- and how the damage will scale with source_points.

 

 

Agreed!

Thanks for pointing it out, but I saw the bonus of the 12/6 lvl split, I just thought the ratio is somehow really strange and doesn't look appealing for builds.

E.g. 9/9 seems to give the broadest access to abilities, while 17/1 and 15/3 are relatively low sacrifices in the first class compared to what you get in the second. 12/6 seems like a bad trade-off - looks like you should focus on the first class, but you are only a bit better than the second one. Dunno.

 

You're right about the key spells and abilities though, they will certainly be the deciding factor. And in case they decided for DnD2 multiclassing, this whole table is moot anyway, since this would imply we end up with 9/9.

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