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Please no more Barbarian with Int

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I just wanted to get into another playtrough of PoE 1 and it remembered me of one thing that
made me throw up in my mouth the first time I saw it... Intelligence as a required stat for Barbarians... please don't... just don't...
I know Barbarians don't have to be stupid without the ability to speak normally but... just no!
I would understand it for a fighter or an ranger but not a barbarian... please no... every time I see it it feels like
someone scratching with nails on a chalkboard so please for gods sake no...!

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I have no problem with it. The "dumb barbarian" archetype is ridiculous and needs changing, not to mention the fact that I enjoy all the attributes being important to all the classes as it creates real trade off's instead of just dumping points.

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I just wanted to get into another playtrough of PoE 1 and it remembered me of one thing that

made me throw up in my mouth the first time I saw it... Intelligence as a required stat for Barbarians... please don't... just don't...

I know Barbarians don't have to be stupid without the ability to speak normally but... just no!

I would understand it for a fighter or an ranger but not a barbarian... please no... every time I see it it feels like

someone scratching with nails on a chalkboard so please for gods sake no...!

 

http://gph.is/1maiw0M

It is not a required stat. You can boost int to have a larger carnage aoe. That's it. But why can't a barbarian be intelligent anyway?

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I don't even understand where the "stupid barbarian" originated. Conan the Barbarian spoke (and read, and wrote) like, a dozen languages and often translated ancient runes etc as well as being a master tactician in the Howard books.

Edited by Katarack21
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Random thought... what if INT attribute would mean Intensity?

- increases the duration of CC spells

- reduces the duration of DoT spells that deal fixed damage, making the same amount being applied faster; while DoT's with no fixed damage just linger for longer and thus deal more damage

- a more intense storm usually covers a wider area, so there: increased AoE

- if a beneficial spell was casted with higher intensity - it's effect will linger for longer - hence +% duration.

 

So a barbarian with high INT would just mean that he makes a more intense use of his ability to slash several enemies in one swing.

 

On a similar note DEX could be renamed to Quickness - as this is what it actually does.

And PER to Finesse - as being more exact allows you to easier hitting the vital spot. Additionally goes well with fast weapons needing to crit more often then slow harder-hitting ones, in order to overcome DR. And there is no problem with Quickness and Finesse influencing Reflex either.

Edited by MaxQuest
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I don't even understand where the "stupid barbarian" originated. Conan the Barbarian spoke (and read, and wrote) like, a dozen languages and often translated ancient runes etc as well as being a master tactician in the Howard books.

Well, the term barbarian implies the human being in question is uncivilized or primitive, and was how the Greeks designated people of non-Greek culture (who they largely saw as inferior, culturally at least). It doesn't necessarily mean barbarians are stupid but it sort of came to existence as a derogatory term that implied them being all of this.

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Random thought... what if INT attribute would mean Intensity?

- increases the duration of CC spells

- reduces the duration of DoT spells that deal fixed damage, making the same amount being applied faster; while DoT's with no fixed damage just linger for longer and thus deal more damage

- a more intense storm usually covers a wider area, so there: increased AoE

- if a beneficial spell was casted with higher intensity - it's effect will linger for longer - hence +% duration.

 

So a barbarian with high INT would just mean that he makes a more intense use of his ability to slash several enemies in one swing.

 

On a similar note DEX could be renamed to Quickness - as this is what it actually does.

And PER to Finesse - as being more exact allows you to easier hitting the vital spot. Additionally goes well with fast weapons needing to crit more often then slow harder-hitting ones, in order to overcome DR. And there is no problem with Quickness and Finesse influencing Reflex either.

Basically i agree with you, i just think that in this way might and intesity can overlap concectually ( since might increase spell dmg too)

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I don't even understand where the "stupid barbarian" originated. Conan the Barbarian spoke (and read, and wrote) like, a dozen languages and often translated ancient runes etc as well as being a master tactician in the Howard books.

Well, the term barbarian implies the human being in question is uncivilized or primitive, and was how the Greeks designated people of non-Greek culture (who they largely saw as inferior, culturally at least). It doesn't necessarily mean barbarians are stupid but it sort of came to existence as a derogatory term that implied them being all of this.

 

Yes, but Conan is the archetype fantasy barbarian--sword&sorcery, all that. What I'm curious about is why the fantasy barbarians that came after Conan are all a bunch of thick-headed idiots when Conan demonstrably was not.

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the problem ain't intelligent barbarians.  the problem is carnage. there weren't s'posed to be class defining abilities in poe.  nevertheless, carnage is indeed a class defining ability, and the best way to squeeze the most juice outta of carnage is to boost intelligence. the problem is barbarians being defined by carnage.

 

as an aside, am always annoyed when the developers (josh) use the "intelligent barbarian" as an example o' poe character creation flexibility.  in point o' fact, the intelligent barbarian is one o' the few examples o' a poe customization fails.  just as it were wasteful to purposeful build a weak ad&d fighter, it is foolish to build a stoopid poe barbarian.  developers deserve a smack in the face with a less than fresh trout every time they use the "intelligent barbarian" to promote the breadth o' poe character customization.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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It is the same situation with dwarves. The original pop culture touchstones are Tolkein and Wagner, both of who had their dwarves as these multilayered characters, with their individual cultures and spirituality. Nowadays though everyone expects dwarves to be these hard drinking lugs

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I don't even understand where the "stupid barbarian" originated. Conan the Barbarian spoke (and read, and wrote) like, a dozen languages and often translated ancient runes etc as well as being a master tactician in the Howard books.

 

Well, the term barbarian implies the human being in question is uncivilized or primitive, and was how the Greeks designated people of non-Greek culture (who they largely saw as inferior, culturally at least). It doesn't necessarily mean barbarians are stupid but it sort of came to existence as a derogatory term that implied them being all of this.

Yes, but Conan is the archetype fantasy barbarian--sword&sorcery, all that. What I'm curious about is why the fantasy barbarians that came after Conan are all a bunch of thick-headed idiots when Conan demonstrably was not.

Because of Schwarzenegger films. For most people it’s what they think when you mention the character.


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A couple of points:

 

1) There are no required stats.

 

2) Ignorance does not make one stupid.

 

One can be a highly intelligent barbarian and still remain ignorant of civilized ways. I suppose to the naive that could make the barbarian appear stupid.

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...

 

need for repetition.

 

what a barbarian is, or should be, is 'posed to be defined by the player and not by tolkien or robert e. howard or the developers or anybody posting on this board.  a primary goal for character customization were flexibility.  the individual player, bounded only by their imagination, would define a given class.  play your barbarian smart or stoopid shouldn't matter. should be able to play your barbarian 'stead of josh's or Gromnir's or the genesis poster's barbarian. given the goals 'o poe, arguing 'bout what a barbarian is or can be is silliness. 

 

again, the problem is the class defining nature of carnage and not the viability o' an intelligent barbarian. 

 

HA! Good Fun!  


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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A couple of points:

 

1) There are no required stats.

 

2) Ignorance does not make one stupid.

 

One can be a highly intelligent barbarian and still remain ignorant of civilized ways. I suppose to the naive that could make the barbarian appear stupid.

 

You can also have stupid people who are socialized to be civilized automatons.

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A barbarian with 1 INT can still hit adjacent foes with Carnage. They have to stand close ot each other, but it still works. Since it doesn't matter if the AoE of Carnage just barely scratches your circle or fully covers it, there is quite a bit of play when it comes to INT.

 

A barb with 10 INT will not hit a lot less enemies than one with 15 INT for example. There are some sweet spots though. Once you mange you scratch the second row of enemies with your Carnage AoE things get interesting. And that's why some people like to max out INT. But it's not that much of a gimpage to play a barb with mediocre INT.

 

Of course there's still Frenzy and Savage Defiance which get better the more INT you have... ;)

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I don't even understand where the "stupid barbarian" originated. Conan the Barbarian spoke (and read, and wrote) like, a dozen languages and often translated ancient runes etc as well as being a master tactician in the Howard books.

Well, the term barbarian implies the human being in question is uncivilized or primitive, and was how the Greeks designated people of non-Greek culture (who they largely saw as inferior, culturally at least). It doesn't necessarily mean barbarians are stupid but it sort of came to existence as a derogatory term that implied them being all of this.

 

Yes, but Conan is the archetype fantasy barbarian--sword&sorcery, all that. What I'm curious about is why the fantasy barbarians that came after Conan are all a bunch of thick-headed idiots when Conan demonstrably was not.

 

If I were to venture a guess, I reckon it is because of an amalgamation of terms and uses. Also, for example, in Spanish "bárbaro" can still be used as a synonym to "brute", which also alludes to lack of education, primitiveness and so on. Doesn't help that the barbarian even in sword & sorcery is often designed from a visual perspective as a fairly primitive and brutish kind of warrior.

Edited by algroth

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Basically i agree with you, i just think that in this way might and intesity can overlap concectually ( since might increase spell dmg too)

I was thinking of might and intensity as of current and voltage (although imagining a flow of inner energy/mana/w/e rather than electrons).

But yeah, good point. Without caveats they indeed seem to overlap.

Edited by MaxQuest
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 But it's not that much of a gimpage to play a barb with mediocre INT.

 

 

sure it is gimpage.  also, to make the parallel to ad&d more excruciating,  there is indeed thresholds of use for inflating intelligence. with an 18 intelligence, you is gonna be hitting with carnage approx. three-deep v. human-sized opponents. (aside: is made more effective when using a reach weapon as the aoe is centered on the target and not the barbarian.)  just as it didn't much matter if your ad&d fighter strength were 'tween 8 and 15, there is indeed significant leaps in carnage efficacy at particular intelligence levels... which makes the situation worse and not better.  every 1 point o' intelligence boost for a barbarian is not giving you equal payoff which is hardly in keeping with what were intended for poe characters.  again, 'cause carnage is so integral, one need look specific at how intelligence affects carnage to determine how intelligence most benefits a barbarian.

 

is all wrong.

 

is bass ackwards.

 

is anachronistic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game. The few outlying mobs I missed because of lower INT were compensated with higher damage on those I did hit. Is this one of those things that somebody comes up with and others pick up creating an echo chamber of feigned outrage just because why not.

 

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Edited by dragubaba
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What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game. The few outlying mobs I missed because of lower INT were compensated with higher damage on those I did hit. Is this one of those things that somebody comes up with and others pick up creating an echo chamber of feigned outrage just because why not.

 

 

I'm not looking at this from a powerplay perspective I'm looking at this from an roleplay perspective.

If the stat for carnage would be called wisdom I would not have a problem with it.

Its the fact that If you want to go "all out" on carnage and make a full carnage barbarian you would have to make him an intellectual.

A barbarian that spend his whole life training his skills with a sword while the mage was studying books during his should not be equally smart.

 

Some people see attributes and they see damage numbers BUT others like me see tools in them to create a character from their imagination

that's where an intellectual Barbarian becomes a problem.

 

I played WHFRP 2e a few days ago and I thought to myself I want to make a slayer like character!

A full carnage based barbarian would be a great fit... almost perfect BUT I don't want him to be an intellectual BUT I do want to increase the range of his carnage.

If carnage range would be a Skill instead of an Attribute that would fit better or an attribute called wisdom instead of intellect.

It would be okay if he would be capable to survive in the wild because of his wisdom but he should not outsmart a wizard or beat him in a game of chess.

 

I love PoE its a great game with a great Battlesystem It makes it hard for me to go back to BG1+2, IWD1+2 and so on BUT its because of how great it works for battles.

When it comes to roleplay and imagination it also does the job pretty well, kudos to the designers but it falls a little bit apart when you get to the intellectual barbarian...

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What the hell are you people on about. I made a barbarian with base INT of 7 and slaughtered my way through the game. The few outlying mobs I missed because of lower INT were compensated with higher damage on those I did hit. Is this one of those things that somebody comes up with and others pick up creating an echo chamber of feigned outrage just because why not.

The argument seems to be "that's not the best that you could possibly do, so it's gimped trash".

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Please don't throw min/maxing and viability in the same sack. Yes a barb with more int will have a bigger aoe and technically shine more in battle but it doesn't mean that you can't complete the game with a full might barb.

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