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Mikey Dowling

Update #40 - Multiclassing Part II

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Greetings, citizens of Eora! We're very excited to bring you an update that goes over the multiclassing system in Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire. You may remember way back in Update #7 when we discussed how the system would work, but changes were made and we wanted to make sure we discussed them. So, join Josh and some of the Deadfire team while we talk about all things multiclassing.

 

 

The video touched on some of the changes, but Josh himself has some words on what has gone into the multiclassing and subclassing system. Take it away, Josh!

 

tranquil-josh.gif

 

Hail, elves.
 
It's time for a big ol' update on multiclassing and subclassing.  Both features are new for Deadfire and we wanted to let you know how they've developed over the past eight months.
 
Our original design for multiclassing was based on D&D 3.X's approach, where players pick classes level-by-level.  You could build a character as a wizard for 4 levels, then add 2 levels of fighter, then switch back to wizard for 3 levels, and so on.  Because 3.X multiclassing has some mechanical problems with how spellcasters progress (barring certain prestige classes like the Mystic Theurge), I designed a system that separated each class' power source advancement from its level advancement.  It was designed to create a more reliable advancement curve for each class' abilities.  It more-or-less succeeded at that, but we noted some problems early on, including after the announcement:
  • People had a difficult time understanding the relationship between individual levels and power source progression.
  • Selecting powers worked pretty well if you knew exactly what you were doing, but you could easily wind up with casts per encounter from levels of spells you had no spells for (e.g. 2 third level casts but no third level spells).
  • There were some shortcomings with building characters level by level in different orders.
  • Displaying power source progression in the UI was either confusing or took up an inordinate amount of space.

After talking things over with the other system designers, we discussed what the most important aspects of multiclassing were.

  • Allowing people to realize hybrid class character concepts.  "I want to be a fighter and a wizard."
  • Keeping the overall power of the character competitive with single-class characters.  The character should be viable.  It's okay if it winds up over- or a little under-powered compared to a single-class character as long as it's not fundamentally weak.
  • Allowing players to emphasize one aspect of the hybrid more than others.  "I'm a fighter and a wizard, but more of a wizard."
The original design allowed the first and the last aspects, but the middle aspect suffered because of the high degree of flexibility.  It was still easy to make non-viable characters.  A non-viable character can be part of a viable party, but still feels bad to play.  The high degree of flexibility also strained the first aspect, the basic character concept.  A character with 18 levels in fighter and 2 levels in rogue is less of a character concept and more of a strategic build choice.
 
I went back to the drawing board to revisit an idea I had around the same time as the original design, which was based on AD&D 2nd Edition-style multiclassing, where the player chooses to opt into multiclassing at character creation instead of selecting classes level-by-level.  In such systems, the core concept is established from the beginning.  A player who says, "I want to be a fighter and a wizard," can be that (a battlemage) from the beginning instead of picking one class and then alternating to the other later on.  Progression is also easier to understand from the beginning as access to abilities and the increase of their power is consistent from multiclass to multiclass.  A fighter/rogue (swashbuckler) gains access to 2nd level abilities for both classes at 4th level, as does a priest/monk (contemplative), barbarian/chanter (howler), and druid/ranger (beastmaster).
 
In a strict sense, the new system allows for less overall flexibility, but multiclass characters now get two abilities each time they hit a new power level, one from each class.  This means that a multiclass character starts with more abilities and will always have more abilities than a single-class character of the same level.  However, multiclass characters get access to each power level later than a single-class character and their abilities progress in power at a slower rate.  A wizard has access to Fireball at 5th level, but a battlemage (fighter/wizard) does not gain access until 7th level.
 
A multiclass character also uses the average of their classes' base health and defenses.  If one class begins with 48 health and the other begins with 30, the multiclass will start with 39 health.  If one class gains 14 health per level and the other gains 10 per level, the multiclass will gain 12 per level.
 
levels.png
 
In actual playtesting, multiclass characters have terrific flexibility even though they lag power-wise compared to their single-class counterparts.  In my personal experience, they are a lot of fun to play and there is a huge amount of variety to how a multiclass character can be built even before subclasses are taken into account.
 
Subclasses add an additional dimension to character conception and development.  As in our original design, players are allowed to choose a subclass for each of their classes.  The only classes that are required to have a subclass are paladin and priest.  Subclasses all have trade-offs, though some subclasses change the core playstyle of the class more than others.  A sharpshooter plays similarly to the pure ranger, but emphasizes the ranged aspect more and suffers more in melee.  A stalker needs to stay close to their animal companion to avoid penalties and take advantage of the subclass' melee-oriented benefits.  A ghost lodge ranger plays much differently from the pure ranger because their animal companion is only present as a spirit summoned in combat.  There are very few restrictions on multiclassing combinations.  Only a few paladin orders and priest deities are restricted from combining for mechanical reasons (i.e., contradictory Dispositions that affect their abilities).  Otherwise, the player is free to combine classes as they see fit.
 
And now, the lists you've all been waiting for... first, the multiclass titles!  These titles are displayed on your character sheet along with the individual classes and subclasses your character uses.
 
classnames.png
 
And all of our subclasses with a brief description of what the subclass is all about.
 
Barbarian
  • Corpse Eater - Targets unconscious enemies to devour their flesh and gain power.  Powers cost more to use.
  • Berserker - Has a more powerful Frenzy, but attacks can damage friends as well as foes while Frenzied.
  • Mage Slayer - Gains spell resistance and can disrupt enemy spells, but cannot use potions or scrolls and beneficial spells have shorter durations.
Chanter
  • Beckoner - Summoning invocations are cheaper and summon more creatures, but the creatures are weaker.
  • Skald - Offensive invocations are cheaper and melee crits grant phrases, but all other invocations are more expensive.
  • Troubadour - Phrase linger is 50% longer, Brisk Recitation as a modal that increases the rate of phrase elapses, but shortens linger. All invocations are more expensive.
Cipher
  • Ascendant - Powers and Soul Whip are more effective when used at Max Focus, but Focus drains quickly if left at Max for long.
  • Beguiler - Illusion powers are more powerful, but Soul Whip suffers when used against targets that are not vulnerable to Sneak Attack.
  • Soul Blade - Offensive cipher that can dump Focus into a Soul Annihilation melee attack for extra Raw damage.  Shred powers have reduced Focus cost.  Lower Max Focus.
Druid
  • Fury - Shift into storm blights and gain bonuses with elemental spells.  Cannot cast Restoration spells.
  • Lifegiver - Rejuvenation spells are cast with increased Power Level but cannot cast Summon spells.
  • Shifter - Druid can shift to any animal form, once each, per combat and heals damage each time they shift back.  Cannot cast spells while shifted.
Fighter
  • Black Jacket - Bonus weapon proficiency, reduced Recovery when switching weapon, but lacks Constant Recovery.
  • Devoted - May only be proficient in a single weapon.  Higher Penetration and crit damage with that weapon. Suffers Accuracy penalty when using other weapons.
  • Unbroken - Bonuses to Engagement and Disengagement Attacks, but lower Stride.
Monk
  • Helwalker - Begin all combats with Wounds, gain Might for every Wound.  Wounds require more damage to acquire.
  • Nalpazca - Drug effects last longer and Wound cap is increased while under the effects of drugs. Penalties while not under the effect of drugs.
  • Shattered Pillar - Gain Wounds by inflicting damage with melee weapons (fists or otherwise).  Lower Max Wound cap, does not gain Wounds from receiving damage.
Paladin
  • Bleak Walkers - Flames of Devotion (Remember Rakhan Field) generates black flames and does Corrode damage.  Healing given and received is reduced. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Eothas, Berath, or Skaen.
  • Darcozzi Paladini - Lay on Hands (Flames of Darcozzi Palace) creates a flame shield around the paladin.  Lower Zeal power. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Berath, Magran, or Skaen.
  • Goldpact Knights  - Sworn Enemy (Gilded Enmity) creates protective gold armor on the paladin.  Cannot learn Zealous Auras. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Magran or Wael.
  • Kind Wayfarers - Flames of Devotion (Sword and the Shepherd) heals nearby allies.  Does less damage against enemies vulnerable to Sneak Attack. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Berath, Magran, Wael, or Skaen.
  • Shieldbearers of St. Elcga - Lay on Hands (St. Elcga's Grace) prevents the target from being knocked out for a short duration.  Cannot use Lay on Hands on self. - Cannot multiclass with priests of Skaen, Magran, or Wael.
Priest
  • Berath - Can learn Decay spells from the druid list, cannot learn Condemnation spells. - Cannot multiclass with Bleak Walker, Kind Wayfarer, or Darcozzi paladins.
  • Eothas - Can learn Elemental spells from the druid list, cannot learn Protection spells. - Cannot multiclass with Bleak Walker paladins.
  • Magran - Can learn Fire spells from the wizard list, cannot learn Restoration spells. - Cannot multiclass with Shieldbearer, Kind Wayfarer, Goldpact, or Darcozzi paladins.
  • Skaen - Can learn rogue offensive abilities as priest spells, cannot learn Inspiration spells. - Cannot multiclass with Shieldbearer, Bleak Walker, Kind Wayfarer, or Darcozzi paladins.
  • Wael - Can learn Illusion spells from the wizard list, cannot learn Punishment spells. - Cannot multiclass with Shieldbeaer, Kind Wayfarer, or Goldpact paladins.
Ranger
  • Ghost Heart - Animal companion must be summoned as a spirit.  They are not affected by Bonded Grief and the companion is more powerful, but the summon is limited duration.
  • Sharpshooter - Bonuses to Penetration and Accuracy at range, but slower actions and lower Deflection.
  • Stalker - Stalker and companion gain bonuses to Deflection and Armor Rating when close to each other, suffer Bonded Grief when too far apart.
Rogue
  • Assassin - From stealth or invisibility, weapon attacks have bonus damage, Penetration, and Accuracy.  All incoming damage is increased.
  • Streetfighter - Sneak Attack and crit damage increases when Flanked or Bloodied (
  • Trickster - Gains access to Illusion spells from the wizard list.  Sneak Attack deals less damage.
Wizard
  • Conjurer - Conjuration spells are more powerful, cannot cast Evocation or Illusion spells.
  • Enchanter - Enchantment spells are more powerful, cannot cast Illusion or Transmutation spells.
  • Evoker - Evocation spells are more powerful, cannot cast Transmutation or Conjuration spells.
  • Illusionist - Illusion spells are more powerful, cannot cast Conjuration or Enchanting spells.
  • Transmuter - Transmutation spells are more powerful, cannot cast Enchantment or Evocation spells.
The subclasses are still undergoing testing, so there may be changes to the specifics of implementation along the way.  We hope that this glimpse into Deadfire's multiclassing and subclass systems gives you endless ideas for different characters you could build until the game is released.  Thanks for reading.
 
--Josh Sawyer, Game Director, Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire

 

Announcements
 
The time to pledge for Deadfire high-tier items is coming to an end. If you want to get an item in the game, you have until next Friday, September 29th, to pledge for that tier. After that, they will no longer be available. The tiers this affects are as follows:
  • Name a Pet
  • Create an Item
  • Portrait In-Game
  • Create a Super-Pet
  • Create a Spell
  • Create an Inn
  • Build a Pirate Party
  • Top Backer
All other tiers will remain open until October 31st, so mark that date if you want to up your pledge or let your friends know to get in on Deadfire early!
 
We hope you've enjoyed this update and we'll be back in a few weeks with another From the Feed of the Director. See you then!
 
If you missed the last update, be sure to check it out.
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Transmaster for the transmutation specialist subclass for wizard is a... interesting subclass name. I don't have a problem with it, just an interesting choice of subclass name.

 

Lol the mathing sequences.

 

Awesome update. :D

 

edit: How come Sister of the Reaping Moon is available for monk in the vid? Or is that just for testing?

Edited by smjjames

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1:03 *SMACK* WOAH! That hit like lightning out of nowhere! Dat 3D model is absolutely stunning!

EDIT: Hahahaha laughed so hard. Thank you :D

Now... so much amazing things in this update.

0:28 Hi Tim! When do we get to know more about "the project"? :D

1:03 Again, great presentation in the Character Creation Screen. Like it much more than Eternity already (especially the end but I'll get there, won't I? :p)

1:12 Really like that it is "Philosophy", so fitting for Monk! :) Also, on the Shattered Pillar Philosophy, "melee weapon", IIRC, Fists/Unarmed count as melee weapons, correct? Also, "Sister of the Reaping Moon Philosophy" becomes "Brother of the Reaping Moon Philosophy" if it is a male character?


1:33 Illusionist!!!! Yeah baby  8) 

1:35
- A) Is there a way to see what Passive effects each familiar gives, or do they all give the same?
- B) Can you name a Familiar?

1:44 This! This is fantastic stuff! Loving the whole Character Sheet terminology used as well. Great time to review and compare various different builds. Easy to write down and jot down notes around and build a proper character with :D Thank you!

1:49 Nitpicky but, Sleight of Hand and Mechanics causing the list to look askew and off a little bit. Could it be possible with two columns? (Plenty of space for it) And putting any extra information in Tooltips/Toolboxes when/if hovering over the skill names with the mouse pointer?

2:23 Ability tree, again, is so very helpful! A bit I didn't point out earlier, but "Preview Abilty Tree" during Class selection is good! :D

2:36 Oh, didn't notice, but "Keywords", means we can also "Search" Ability trees? Or simply a... uhm... signifier? (Like, "Hearthstone" Cards having "Lifesteal" or "Divine Shield" or "Taunt" etc. tools to follow down archetype paths/builds~?)

2:46 "First off a Shadow Dancer using an upgraded Escape" *mouth open* Uuuuuh... that... what... wow! First off, that was amazing! Animations are so smooth! Just curious if there's any possibility a foe may fall Prone from a Skyward kick (And whether the "Prone" animaton" can be used in combination mid-air somehow, making it look as if the target gets hit upwards and perhaps backwards). Kung fu kick!

In general, all the presentations look great (the first one took the cake though). It mostly makes me just want to try out various combinations.

4:17 Sneaky! ;) [EDIT]Not at all Sneaky, I watched the video before reading the post, oops[/EDIT] Also, I died laughing xD

Finally, you forgot 5 Party Members in the equation of possible combinations :p

Edited by Osvir

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edit: How come Sister of the Reaping Moon is available for monk in the vid? Or is that just for testing?

 

Sister of the Reaping Moon is Xoti's specific subclass, which is unavailable to the player. 

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So yeah, probably just for testing.

 

I things I noticed: Full list of skills at the end of the creation. Familiars are in! (Sort of.) Shadowflame and Crushing Doom on the wizard spell list. I'm glad they made the cut again.

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with a 5-man party limit, and no generalist/godless priest announced, our single-class priest choice appears to have become more difficult.  not a bad thing, but am typical making considerable use o' all schools/types o' priestly spells when playing a poe priest. priest/paladin will definite get a looksee.

 

does makes us wish for a godless priest more.  am seeing thematic benefits o' godless particular in the poe setting and such a 'subclass' would allow for a generalist spell caster option such as will be available to wizards and druids who not wanna take a subclass.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Cool stuff.

I like multiclass names.

Also, 7 active skills + 10 passive skills = 17 skills this time! Impressive!

Edited by Sedrefilos

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with a 5-man party limit, and no generalist/godless priest announced, our single-class priest choice appears to have become more difficult.  not a bad thing, but am typical making considerable use o' all schools/types o' priestly spells when playing a poe priest. priest/paladin will definite get a looksee.

 

does makes us wish for a godless priest more.  am seeing thematic benefits o' godless particular in the poe setting and such a 'subclass' would allow for a generalist spell caster option such as will be available to wizards and druids who not wanna take a subclass.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Not sure if this is helpful but i believe the new affliction system is more comprehensive than the first game. In POE priest basically was needed to combat all afflictions with prayers there were scrolls and paladin stuff. In the new system the block/counter to afflictions are being spread out to other classes. So priest aren't as 'necessary'. I know they have monster buffs also.

Edited by draego

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Loving the system of multiclasses in Deadfire, I did feel upon hearing about the previous system that it would turn character building into something of a chore but I feel this new one really streamlines it and explains the balance and tradeoffs much better.


My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/alephg

Currently playing: Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire

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After talking things over with the other system designers, we discussed what the most important aspects of multiclassing were.

  • Allowing people to realize hybrid class character concepts.  "I want to be a fighter and a wizard."
  • Keeping the overall power of the character competitive with single-class characters.  The character should be viable.  It's okay if it winds up over- or a little under-powered compared to a single-class character as long as it's not fundamentally weak.
  • Allowing players to emphasize one aspect of the hybrid more than others.  "I'm a fighter and a wizard, but more of a wizard."
The original design allowed the first and the last aspects, but the middle aspect suffered because of the high degree of flexibility.  It was still easy to make non-viable characters.  A non-viable character can be part of a viable party, but still feels bad to play.  The high degree of flexibility also strained the first aspect, the basic character concept.  A character with 18 levels in fighter and 2 levels in rogue is less of a character concept and more of a strategic build choice.

 

Assuming I'm understanding correctly, the middle aspect was improved at almost the complete expense of the last aspect. No one needs to tell me gameplay comes first, but I liked the old system much more in this respect. Probably won't use this one at all.

Edited by Icesong

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I'm also happy with AD&D-style multiclassing, although it isn't clear to me whether it is still possible to multiclass companions now?


"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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I'm also happy with AD&D-style multiclassing, although it isn't clear to me whether it is still possible to multiclass companions now?

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165552067891/hey-josh-how-will-the-return-to-add-style.  not sure if this is a full answer from Josh. I am wondering if you are forced to multclass them? or maybe you can single or multi but just have to stick with one approach

Edited by draego
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So only MC at the start and always only "half" the power of each class.... Well i mb need 2 rethink my MC idea. Don't really wanna play Bad Mage+Bad Cypher. Well this day was horrible from the start, don't know why i decided this part of it will be better

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Interesting that some subclasses get access to features from other classes. That's a bit of an overlap between multiclasing and subclasses. An Illusionist/Trickster multiclass would probably be overkill.

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https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165552067891/hey-josh-how-will-the-return-to-add-style.  not sure if this is a full answer from Josh. I am wondering if you are forced to multclass them? or maybe you can single or multi but just have to stick with one approach

 

It is possible that once a companion joins, you get to select their first class and whether you want to MC—if you do, a pop-up lets you pick the second class and relative subclass.

 

AD&D-style MC does away with a piece of flexibility I was looking forward to. Say I want to use Xoti as a Monk, but I really want a Priest in my party who is not the Watcher. With the old system, I could take any other companion and slap 19 levels of Priest on them. With AD&D-style MC, I must rely on a hired adventurer instead.

 

However, this is just my nitpicking. I like the new system better overall.


"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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So only MC at the start and always only "half" the power of each class.... Well i mb need 2 rethink my MC idea. Don't really wanna play Bad Mage+Bad Cypher. Well this day was horrible from the start, don't know why i decided this part of it will be better

 

i think the video says you still have choice about the abilities/talents you take from both classes. So if you want to be more of fighter while mult-class fighter/rogue you can still feel like more of fighter by not picking that may rogue abilities. So its something

Edited by draego
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Here is the obligatory combinations-computation post:

 

Including the base class as a "subclass choice", we get the following:

 

There are 8 classes with 4 subclasses; 2 with 5 and 1 with 6, for a total of 8*4+2*5+6=48 subclasses. You can combine them in 48*48= 2304 ways (counting them twice for now).

 

We need to subtract combination of different subclasses of the same class, which means subtracting the squares of the individual numbers:

 

8*42+2*52+62 = 8*16+2*25+36 = 214, leading to 2304 - 214 = 2090 combinations.

 

So far, we counted every combination twice, so lets reduce it to 1045 actual combinations.

 

We also need to subtract the forbidden paladin/priest combinations, which amounts to 3+3+2+4+3=15 forbidden combinations (counting from the paladin list):

 

1045-15 =1030

 

Here you have it, 1030 subclass combinations for you to play in deadfire.

 

Good news: You'll be able to advertise this game with the possibility of over a thousand classes!

Bad news: I won't compute the number for the companions that can have custom classes ;)

 

How many 5 man parties? 10305 ;)

Edited by Doppelschwert
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with a 5-man party limit, and no generalist/godless priest announced, our single-class priest choice appears to have become more difficult.  not a bad thing, but am typical making considerable use o' all schools/types o' priestly spells when playing a poe priest. priest/paladin will definite get a looksee.

 

does makes us wish for a godless priest more.  am seeing thematic benefits o' godless particular in the poe setting and such a 'subclass' would allow for a generalist spell caster option such as will be available to wizards and druids who not wanna take a subclass.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Yeah, I've been arguing that they should add an "atheist" priest in the sequel since I saw the end of Pillars. It just seems like such a no-brainer.

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So only MC at the start and always only "half" the power of each class.... Well i mb need 2 rethink my MC idea. Don't really wanna play Bad Mage+Bad Cypher. Well this day was horrible from the start, don't know why i decided this part of it will be better

 

i think the in the video say you still have choice about the abilities/talents you take from both classes. So if you want to be more of fighter while mult-class fighter/rogue you can still feel like more of fighter by not picking that may rogue abilities. So its something

 

And why do i care about choice in abilities if my base power for both still will be like i said? Nope. My idea for a MC died today. O well.

Edited by Dopsim

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https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165552067891/hey-josh-how-will-the-return-to-add-style.  not sure if this is a full answer from Josh. I am wondering if you are forced to multclass them? or maybe you can single or multi but just have to stick with one approach

 

It is possible that once a companion joins, you get to select their first class and whether you want to MC—if you do, a pop-up lets you pick the second class and relative subclass.

 

AD&D-style MC does away with a piece of flexibility I was looking forward to. Say I want to use Xoti as a Monk, but I really want a Priest in my party who is not the Watcher. With the old system, I could take any other companion and slap 19 levels of Priest on them. With AD&D-style MC, I must rely on a hired adventurer instead.

 

However, this is just my nitpicking. I like the new system better overall.

 

 

Ye i remember the original concept was you are forced to pick one of the base classes then you could multi to anything. I wonder if this is still the case so for Eder when you want to multclass you are force to pick fighter/rogue first but then are allowed to pick anything for the second. The would allow more flexibility you are referring to. Good question for Josh

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I liked the previous system on paper but yeah, if it leds to a bunch of flaws, I guess you changed it for the best.

 

Please, if people aren't happy with "Names", spend your time on more important things. You won't make everyone happy anyway.

Or if you have time & ressources, implement that "rename" feature you were considering back in the day.

 

Nonetheless, GLORIOUS Update as promised !

Be Brave Josh ! This "Biâwac Of Names" won't get your Soul !

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