The All Things Political Topic - Politics is the entertainment division of the military industrial complex

[BruceVC]

9 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I see this repeated a lot, especially on the right but it's a flawed premise. There are liberal border states and liberal cities in red states. I'm from a liberal border area.. and immigrants in NY being the breaking point is laughable.

There are real issues with immigration and border policy but these things are gross oversimplifications and outright lies.

Why what is a lie, is it  the real resource  pressure on states like NY due to influx of immigrants exaggerated? Not according to the major of NY

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/07/nyregion/adams-migrants-destroy-nyc.html

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12597193/Its-NOT-sustainable-Eric-Adams-tells-migrants-Mexico-NYC-capacity-receiving-120-000-year-latest-bid-stem-flow-putting-citys-resources-pressure.html

Its also not  a right-wing talking point that every state and country has limited resources and cant just absorb people endlessly. Its a reality 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by BruceVC

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

10 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I see this repeated a lot, especially on the right but it's a flawed premise. There are liberal border states and liberal cities in red states. I'm from a liberal border area.. and immigrants in NY being the breaking point is laughable.

There are real issues with immigration and border policy but these things are gross oversimplifications and outright lies.

It's like the crime wave thing from a year or so ago, with the same people peddling it or falling for it.

[Lexx]

1 hour ago, Keyrock said:

After giving it some thought, I've concluded that we should forget about walls and barriers. I mean, are we barbarians? Shouldn't we be evolved past this? I have the solution. You're going to love this! Laser grids. Heh? Heh? I've got your attention now, don't I? Sure, New York City has their digidogs and K5 surveillance drones, but that's just parroting the CCP. That's old news. Plus, laser grids are way more badass than surveillance drones. You know China will have laser grids soon. Are we going to let them get to them first or are we going to beat them to the punch? Are we followers or leaders? And think about it, there's legitimate risk of injury to immigrants trying to scale physical walls. They could twist an ankle, blow out a quad, break an arm, the list goes on and on. With a laser grid, if they try to cross, they get cut into neat little meat squares. That's way more compassionate and humanitarian. Also... This just keeps getting better. We can set up the lasers so that we can change the color whenever we want. Breast cancer awareness? BAM! Pink laser grid. We'd be the envy of the world! As a final added bonus, think about how much that would piss off Trump. Sure, publicly he'd denounce the laser grid, but you know that it would eat him up inside. He would think "That should have been me. I should have been the one to build the laser grid. It would have been THE BEST laser grid." It's a win win win win proposition. This might be my best idea ever!

Laser grids are way too energy intensive. It's cheaper to just build turret towers every x distance along the border. Slap some sensor suit on them and let them waste everything that steps into their kill zone.

[Gfted1]

 

But seriously, give everyone a SSN and get them taxes rolling in.

[Amentep]

35 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Laser grids are way too energy intensive. It's cheaper to just build turret towers every x distance along the border. Slap some sensor suit on them and let them waste everything that steps into their kill zone.

I hear OCP is working on a fantastic idea, currently referred to as ED-209...

[HoonDing]

Sucks being part of the "rules-based order" and being unable to "just shoot them" like their Saudi friends do.

[Keyrock]

1 hour ago, Lexx said:

Laser grids are way too energy intensive.

It's talk like this from the Anti-Laser Grid Lobby that's going to have us looking on in envy in a few years at the laser grid the CCP puts around Chinese Taipei.

[Hurlshort]

The only difference between Obama's, Trump's, and Biden's immigration policies is advertising. All three are human rights travesties. Trump is just the only one who is proud of it.

[Pidesco]

Tesla coils, though.

[Gromnir]

4 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

 All three are human rights travesties. Trump is just the only one who is proud of it.

minor quibble: we would say that the difference is that under trump, the human travesties became policy goals.

from a 2019 Gromnir post:

"however, before people get too angry at barr and trump, ms. fabian, the lawyer for doj in our clips, argued another flores case three years ago and it were even more disturbing. a woman who were trying to instigate a hunger strike in protest o' conditions at a detainment facility had her child seperated from her and the child placed in solitary confinement. fabian tried to argue such treatment were perfect acceptable under the flores settlement. separate and isolate child were a legit response to insurrection by the mother o' the child. 2015 were obama administration, and while there were not a general policy o' child separations in spite o' trump claims, clearly it did happen in more than a couple instances."

have also posted the following a couple times:

"not just kids.

"'cause is not criminal trial with criminal trial protections, those seeking asylum is not granted real protections and is often given what amounts to a sham trial."

...

"ps the last Two presidential administrations has been abominable and arguable inhumane when dealing with the immigration crisis.  the trump admin has been orders o' magnitude worse than obama, but the previous President would not be comfortable talking 'bout his immigration record. the obama doj, just one example, argued it were appropriate to use solitary confinement to punish mothers who went on a hunger strike in response to mistreatment o' themselves and their children while being detained on immigration issues. obama's doj argued the moms were inciting disobedience and as were civil, they didn't have criminal rights, so... "

ok, the thing is, as much as am having criticized the obama administration, what trump did different is that he and his nativist cronies made suffering the point o' their policies. the goal for the trump admin, with stephen miller as architect o' the scheme, were to make conditions bad enough that illegal US immigration, which btw had been decreasing steadily for decades, would be an act only the most desperate would even contemplate. under trump, human rights travesties were the point.

aside, and this will bother many, am thinking some o' the tragedy regarding illegal immigrants is functional unavoidable and the goal should be to limit as 'posed to expecting elimination o' the problems. as a practical matter, it is impossible to make illegal border crossing criminal 'cause we already see backlogs of eight years in many jurisdictions. imagine if each immigrant had to be given a jury trial? can't do it. the problem is the immigrants don't get criminal defendant protections. 

'course trump is also the guy who were suggesting the US should invade venezuela, while active working to destabilize the south american regime. pretend as if the US ain't at least part to blame for the massive uptick in venezuelan refugees is requiring a level o' willful obtuse am unable to manage.  

regardless, US immigration, like US health care, is complex issues with a whole lotta different parts... and Gromnir is old enough to recall a time when democrats and republicans were polar opposites on the issue. keep in mind trumpy fear mongering about illegals stealing jobs from working class americans and the largely imaginary crime stat hobgoblins shared at fox news were mainstays o' the democrat platform well into the 80s. please recall that working class whites were worried about such back in the 60s and at the time those individuals were dependable democrat voters.

example: am having previous mentioned how Barbara Jordan is kinda a personal role model for Gromnir. her positions on immigration might be considered too harsh by current gop standards.

even so, as disappointed as Gromnir were with all three recent administrations, trump were a notable outlier and not just 'cause trump appears proud o' the human suffering brought about during his term. human travesty were a conscious goal under trump. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Gromnir

[ShadySands]

8 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Snip

I never said that there's no issues with immigration, I specifically pointed out what you wrote about it now affecting liberals which is patently false and has been making the rounds on conservative sites. There are 4 southern border states and only one is red ...and one is the communist hellscape of California.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Looks like public education is under assault in Texas... again.

13 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I never said that there's no issues with immigration, I specifically pointed out what you wrote about it now affecting liberals which is patently false and has been making the rounds on conservative sites. There are 4 southern border states and only one is red ...and one is the communist hellscape of California.

In Texas the border areas tend to be less red than the state as a whole, with El Paso being particularly liberal. The idea that only now are libruls dealing with immigration is just absurd to anyone who has lived in the southwest.

[Gromnir]

34 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I never said that there's no issues with immigration, I specifically pointed out what you wrote about it now affecting liberals which is patently false and has been making the rounds on conservative sites.

the frustrating part o' the debates 'bout immigration is that most of it is theatre. immigrants (particularly illegals) do statistical less crime than the overall US population and when the trump administration allowed individual states to reject relocated immigrants, not a single state, red or blue, rejected. places like utah were desperate in need o' the kinda labor those undocumented-and-waiting-trial immigrants were willing to do. etc. 

is a whole lotta legit concern regarding illegal immigration but somehow whichever party is current anti-immigration manages to set the agenda, so instead o' talking real, we talk about ultra-expensive and pointless wall boondoggles, while pretending that undocumented immigrants willing to take near minimum wage jobs picking strawberries or working in poultry processing plants somehow hurts the white working class population. and scaring old people with anecdotal stories about venezuelan and mexican rapists is oh so helpful when trying to have a meaningful discussion about immigration, yes?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/12/21/what-ronald-reagan-actually-said-about-border-security-according-history-not-donald-trump/

Bush said immigration policy needed to be “sensitive” and “understanding” toward the “really honorable, decent, family-loving people” that had crossed the U.S.-Mexico border without documentation.

Reagan echoed that sentiment.

“Rather than talking about putting up a fence, why don’t we work out some recognition of our mutual problems, make it possible for them to come here legally with a work permit,” he said. “And then while they’re working and earning here, they pay taxes here. And when they want to go back they can go back.”

The border, he said, should be open “both ways” — and border security policy should take into account the economic challenges facing Mexico.

again, am agreeing that there is a whole lotta serious issues involving immigration, but is almost never the stuff we see our elected representatives discuss. frightening people with bogus arguments and misleading crime numbers results in more reliable campaign contributions than does explaining how difficult it is to tackle problems which has existed for many decades.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 7, 2023 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

3 hours ago, Gromnir said:

the frustrating part o' the debates 'bout immigration is that most of it is theatre. immigrants (particularly illegals) do statistical less crime than the overall US population and when the trump administration allowed individual states to reject relocated immigrants, not a single state, red or blue, rejected. places like utah were desperate in need o' the kinda labor those undocumented-and-waiting-trial immigrants were willing to do. etc. 

is a whole lotta legit concern regarding illegal immigration but somehow whichever party is current anti-immigration manages to set the agenda, so instead o' talking real, we talk about ultra-expensive and pointless wall boondoggles, while pretending that undocumented immigrants willing to take near minimum wage jobs picking strawberries or working in poultry processing plants somehow hurts the white working class population. and scaring old people with anecdotal stories about venezuelan and mexican rapists is oh so helpful when trying to have a meaningful discussion about immigration, yes?

 

Except the most common and real issue with illegal and undocumented immigration is not that they are criminals. And this is the same in  any country that faces an immigration crisis. The majority of immigrants are not criminals

Its the resource drain in the country or state to absorb them. And thats never going to change or go away if you  cant control or manage your borders

[uuuhhii]

always remember the first immigration law of usa

the biggest problem of immigration law is the idiots come up with the thing

[BruceVC]

https://edition.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/al-aqsa-storm-militants-infiltrate-israel-after-gaza-rockets-10-07-intl-hnk/index.html

Massive Hamas incursion into Israel. It really undermines the perceived security of Israel but this type of endless violence is expected considering the lack  of  real interest and intransigence from leadership on both sides to compromise or find a meaningful peaceful solution 

[Malcador]

Well Netanyahu must be glad, people will get off his back for a bit

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Malcador said:

Well Netanyahu must be glad, people will get off his back for a bit

No he wont, this  incursion will have real consequence for his continued leadership and its a  serious  indictment on his right-wing coalition which always claims they the best choice to protect Israel 

And this attack got them completely by surprise, the intelligence gathering has  seriously failed them and there will be people held accountable for this failure 

But to make things even worse they have taken dozens of Israelis hostage which means Israeli soldiers have to use ground troops in most places of  urban warfare because they wont risk killing the hostages. And that includes the captured settlements and parts of Gaze depending on where they think the hostages have  been taken

Obviously the Israelis will utterly defeat Hamas but it will take  5-7 days in my opinion and the Israelis will continue to suffer causalities which they never like to do 

 

[Agiel]

20 hours ago, Gromnir said:

regardless, US immigration, like US health care, is complex issues with a whole lotta different parts... and Gromnir is old enough to recall a time when democrats and republicans were polar opposites on the issue. keep in mind trumpy fear mongering about illegals stealing jobs from working class americans and the largely imaginary crime stat hobgoblins shared at fox news were mainstays o' the democrat platform well into the 80s. please recall that working class whites were worried about such back in the 60s and at the time those individuals were dependable democrat voters.

Of note is that Cesar E. Chavez, nominally a liberal icon, took a hardline stance on immigration who didn't shy away from using pejoratives typically associated with the MAGA crowd for his brethren across the border. The reasons I feel are beautifully elucidated in this video from Evan Hadfield: 

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by Agiel

[Malcador]

Where to, I wonder.  Will be interesting to see how these airstrikes get covered, heh.

[Sarex]

2 hours ago, Malcador said:

Where to, I wonder.  Will be interesting to see how these airstrikes get covered, heh.

The UN/NATO should send peace keepers to stabilize the situation.

[Malcador]

1 minute ago, Sarex said:

The UN/NATO should send peace keepers to stabilize the situation.

Israel's part of the rules based order, so no need for that.

[BruceVC]

This is definitely not an attack on the US, a real example of political grandstanding and exaggeration  

[HoonDing]

A hundred dead jews is a tragedy. A million dead arabs is a statistic.

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, HoonDing said:

A hundred dead jews is a tragedy. A million dead arabs is a statistic.

Reminds me of a funny post way back on the exchange rate for American lives vs Iraqis.