Wizards...butchered.

[Hebruixe]

First of all, I'm very happy about most things in Pillars 2. I gave it a positive review on steam. I'd recommend it to anyone who asked my opinion about it.

 

But one thing I am not happy about is Wizards' class design.

 

WTF happened?

 

Only 2 spellcasts per level? Subclasses that take away entire schools of magic? Grimoires that can't be edited? Boring, generic passives that aren't even unique to the class? Way to ruin wizards.

 

Of course, it's obvious what happened. They realized multiclass wizards were brokenly overpowered and nerfed the hell of out the class to compensate...with no consideration for single-class playability.

 

Obsidian, please improve wizards. Give them some love. Make them awesome again.

 

If you're worried about the balancing issues, here's an easy solution: Give them improvements that only apply to single-class wizards, improvements which don't apply to multiclass wizards. For example, let single-class wizards edit their grimoires. Or allow single-class wizards to use spells from "forbidden schools" when present in their grimoires. Or give single-class wizards +1 spellcasts (for a total of 3 spellcasts) per spell level. (That last one would be a welcome benefit to all single-class spellcasters!)

 

Sorry for the negativity, but I feel that these things needed to be said.

 

I absolutely love Pillars 2. Thank you for making it.

 

-A fan

Edited May 14, 2018 by Hebruixe

[Jayngo]

I'm not big into wizards, though I always have one in my party and I'm only 20 hours in, but it appears that I can't change spells in the grimoires? That decision really bothers me and I don't like the fact that each level only has two available spells. I feel it really cuts down on experimentation. I find myself using the same two or three spells. They really seem to have cut down on the creativity when it comes to doing that to the grimoires. Not a fan. 

[Shepard]

Me neither...

 

I'm not big into wizards, though I always have one in my party and I'm only 20 hours in, but it appears that I can't change spells in the grimoires? That decision really bothers me and I don't like the fact that each level only has two available spells. I feel it really cuts down on experimentation. I find myself using the same two or three spells. They really seem to have cut down on the creativity when it comes to doing that to the grimoires. Not a fan. 

[M4xw0lf]

You know, on the other hand it finally makes sense to even have the possibility of swapping Grimoires - something I never ever did in PoE.

[Juodas Varnas]

You know, on the other hand it finally makes sense to even have the possibility of swapping Grimoires - something I never ever did in PoE.

Pffff, i did swap Grimoires in PoE1, in case i found one that looked better or had a cooler name, like the Black Pages or whatnot.

[Ghilteras]

Aloth is pretty useless with his current build as wizard as he only has perception 12, so he NEVER hits with spells.

[Arctic]

And i thought wizards were the best casters ... 2 free abilities/ spells per power level ... 18 free skills and more if you change grimoires.

 

If you compare it with a cipher that gets no free spells (most of them being bad xD)

[evilcat]

You should compare wizards with other classes. What other classes can do. What wizard can do.

When it comes to aoe cc or burst they hit hard and fast.

Nice bonus is that you can get know 18  spells from free, and arguable even more if you find more grimoires which suit you.

Disappoitment is that wizards have no passive activity  to carry more scrolls in their belt.

[Aotrs Commander]

I feel the pain more for priests, for the loss of flexibility in support spells (especially opportunity cost of the very situation ones), myself, but I'm not hugely fond of the the way they did wizards myself, personally.

 

I think the problem that they are trying to make a system superficially resembling Vancian casting (i.e. that from AD&D and Bg 2 and such), but the problem kind of is that Vancian casting is more or less inherently unbalancable by its very nature. (It was never INTENDED to be balanced in AD&D (that was never a design concern), where you went from the ridiculously weak the the insanely overpowered, and through the IE stuff, that sort of carried on.) And we've got stuck with this sort of halfway house.

 

Might as well just switch to a mana-point system at this point almost...

 

 

 

Wouldn't be at all surprised if wizards/priests don't get another major revision like they had once or twice in the first game over the course of PoE2 and the expansions.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Aotrs Commander

[Torm51]

I feel the pain more for priests, for the loss of flexibility in support spells (especially opportunity cost of the very situation ones), myself, but I'm not hugely fond of the the way they did wizards myself, personally.

 

I think the problem that they are trying to make a system superficially resembling Vancian casting (i.e. that from AD&D and Bg 2 and such), but the problem kind of is that Vancian casting is more or less inherently unbalancable by its very nature. (It was never INTENDED to be balanced in AD&D (that was never a design concern), where you went from the ridiculously weak the the insanely overpowered, and through the IE stuff, that sort of carried on.) And we've got stuck with this sort of halfway house.

 

Might as well just switch to a mana-point system at this point almost...

 

 

 

Wouldn't be at all surprised if wizards/priests don't get another major revision like they had once or twice in the first game over the course of PoE2 and the expansions.

Very true.  I think they tried to balance a Vancian caster system, and you just cannot cause it isnt intended to be like you said.  I get WHY they did it.  I am someone who played Triple Crown in every play through except one, I say this to qualify the difficulty I played at not myself, so apologies if it sounds boastful it is not the intention, and every time I played It was FAR easier when I took the Power three (Wizard, Druid, Priest).  It was not the ONLY way to play and you still needed a solid frontline of martial characters (Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Chanter Barb etc) just to hold long enough for these three to cast buffs and debuffs and it was over.  So I get it....I just cant say I know how to fix it.  I think you either do vancian casting or you do a mana/cool down system but that is me.

 

I have adapted some and am having some success with wizards, druids and priests but ya they are not spectacular for obvious reasons.

[Wormerine]

Wizards are monsters. I am trying to force myself to take Aloth out of my party for once. I have three Grimoires which i constantly switch between so his spell range is pretty good.

 

I am not convinced to Druids but I barely used Takehu. Need to level him up and give him a fair shake.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Wormerine

[Torm51]

Wizards are monsters. I am trying to force myself to take Aloth out of my party for once. I have three Grimoires which i constantly switch between so his spell range is pretty good.

Good to know, I hard that at Power level 9 it gets good, maybe too good just read it.

[Tigranes]

Apparently wizards, as usual, become godlike at high levels, even with these changes.

 

Grimoires, you're supposed to swap them around now, which nobody ever did in POE1.

[GuyNice]

Honestly Wizards and Druids are still really powerful, Priests are a little bit behind (they have several powerful spells, but many weak/too situational ones). I like the fact that they are more limited per encounter now. PoE 1 was impossible to balance even though PotD was much harder than what we have now, simply because you could unload the Vancian casters which packed WAY too much potential power.

 

There is still a lot of balancing to be done, not just the enemy stats and encounter design in PotD, but the abilities themselves vary wildly in power, from pitiful jokes to game breaking powerhouses, many high level spells are terrible compared to lower level ones, etc. But the groundwork is there to build upon. It might take longer than we would like, but Obsidian did a great job overall with PoE, I believe they will do it again, and I for one like the direction they took Vanican casters. That huge per rest battery had to be taken down a notch or ten.

[Purudaya]

One option would be to make grimoires editable but only hold 1 spell per level (instead of 2). It would allow more player choice while still encouraging grimoire swapping to adapt to different situations.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Purudaya

[morhilane]

I personally find Deadfire Wizards more potent than POE1 ones (used Aloth in both). Kalakoth's Minor Blights and Pull of Eora is such a nice combo anyway.

[Ryz009]

Yeah the only adjustment I'd want for wizards is maybe one more spell for low level spells. A basic form of spell mastery pretty much.

[morhilane]

Yeah the only adjustment I'd want for wizards is maybe one more spell for low level spells. A basic form of spell mastery pretty much.

There are +1 spell cast bonuses in the game. I remember seeing one attached to renting a room. I think it was a room.

 

 

The Chanter also has a level 9 invocation that replenish 1 class resources on a AOE cone (+ themselves). Spell cast are priest, wizard and druid class resources.

[Mikeymoonshine]

I prefer them this way, more incentive to focus on a specific thing, more reason to care what spells you actually pick on level up and a reason to have more than one grimoire in your inventory.

[Ryz009]

 

Yeah the only adjustment I'd want for wizards is maybe one more spell for low level spells. A basic form of spell mastery pretty much.

There are +1 spell cast bonuses in the game. I remember seeing one attached to renting a room. I think it was a room.

 

 

The Chanter also has a level 9 invocation that replenish 1 class resources on a AOE cone (+ themselves). Spell cast are priest, wizard and druid class resources.

 

 

Oh yeah.

 

Oooh now I have a reason to bring along a chanter.

[Dongom]

Wizard subclasses are kind of crappy, but Wizard base class is awesome.

 

One of the most powerful single classes, and one of the most powerful builds overall.

 

It just takes a few levels to get powerful, they have a weak start like most CPRGs.  

[mammasaura]

I like that now I need to specialize Aloth, before was a jungle of spells and only used a few. I can finally see his spells and say what type of wizard is.

 

The grimories give flexibility, meanwhile empower can be used to replenish the caster count or improve the spells.

Edited May 15, 2018 by mammasaura

[Witness41920]

I think a lot of people are forgetting about the Empower mechanic. You can use the Empower mechanic on your Wizard to get back a lot of your spent spell casts. 

[lpro]

I disagree w/ the OP. On my first run, on veteran, Aloth easily took it away in dps. Although a spell mastery passive would be good. 

 

That said I find the subclasses annoying -- I played a POTD run up to level 8 as an evoker but it's just boring since all you can do is nuke. And I find it frustrating that when leveling a wizard you have to essentially keep in mind the contents of your grimoires or you derive no benefit. I could see though that the spell limitation --even w/ empower--might make solo runs as single class wizard difficult to impossible. 

[Sanctuary]

Wizard subclasses are kind of crappy, but Wizard base class is awesome.

 

One of the most powerful single classes, and one of the most powerful builds overall.

 

It just takes a few levels to get powerful, they have a weak start like most CPRGs.  

 

A few levels is an understatement.  They start becoming more than one of the least useful classes at level 7.  The main issue is that the majority of the spell rank 1-2 spells are complete garbage.  Even once you have access to the third tier, you still don't have enough casts to make any real difference unless you cheese your way through the game by using empower to return points and then rest after every fight...

 

It takes a whole lot of levels before they have enough casts to do anything other than Chill Fog (which is actually ridiculously good, but at the same time not something that can be cast every fight).