Politics - Jason X

[HoonDing]

"In God We Trust"

 

real smart

[Chilloutman]

hmm fun in UK:

 

Overall, only a minor 28% of the population agrees that migrants and/or refugees from the
Arab world are beneficial to Europe/Britain.

 

63% of British respondents feel that Arabs who migrated to the UK have failed to integrate in
Western societies and live in isolated communities.

 

https://docs.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://www.arabnews.com/sites/default/files/pdf/topline_pdf_finalx.pdf

Edited September 27, 2017 by Chilloutman

[injurai]

I said the pledge of allegiance in elementary school, but at some point growing up it stopped. I don't remember when, whether it was in middle school or high school. Between buildings or between grades. It just went away and I forgot about even doing the pledge until after I graduated.

 

Saying the pledge is the oddest thing, I don't really mind it being put away. Students don't need to be banned from reciting it, just the whole morning routine sure was odd. Now... trying to turn the US flag into a symbol against diversity is just concern trolling, but not trolling, it' being entirely sincere in one's misplaced concern. There needs to be a better term for this notion. I get people use it nationalistically, but ceding your own claim on your own nations symbols is a great way to relinquish your imprint on the national repertoire.

 

As an aside, watching old TyT is surreal...

[Malcador]

Or only 41 believe they are not. Funny that that breakdown adds up to 101, heh.

[Elerond]

They say that you know that you live in free country if you can insult its institutions and symbols without fear of punishment or other forms of retaliation.

[injurai]

They say that you know that you live in free country if you can insult its institutions and symbols without fear of punishment or other forms of retaliation.

 

Unless they do that to convince people they live in a free society

 

[Ben No.3]

 

"Why does no one take me seriously?"

 

*posts info wars videos*

 

 

Anyway, I do understand why someone would want to ban the pledge. It does seem very scary, at least from my perspective. To a much lesser degree, the same principle applies for the flag. It just has a taste of indoctrination to it.

But maybe that's just me.

 

Where I am not willing to make any compromises is in the banning of religious items from schools. There is no place for religion inside formal education (outside of human sciences); these are two things that are strictly separated and must be conveyed to the children as strictly separated. So no crosses or religious symbols of any kind anywhere; and no teachers who wear religious clothing or somehow carry religious items. Teachers must not show their religious beliefs (similarly to how they must not shown their political beliefs). And, consequentially, no "God" in the pledge (if any pledge at all). I think that should be easliky agreeable on. There is no religious freedom if a child is pushed into a certain religion.

I'm uncertain how the pledge is scary and don't have a problem with "under God" in it. Granted I can see the issue to remove it, but it doesn't effect me if they remove or keep it.

I fully agree with you though about religious items being banned (unless for a project or something) and even go as far as to say trying to influence children into a political party is also a huge no-no in my book.

that goes without saying

[Guard Dog]

"Why does no one take me seriously?"

 

*posts info wars videos*

 

 

Anyway, I do understand why someone would want to ban the pledge. It does seem very scary, at least from my perspective. To a much lesser degree, the same principle applies for the flag. It just has a taste of indoctrination to it.

But maybe that's just me.

 

Where I am not willing to make any compromises is in the banning of religious items from schools. There is no place for religion inside formal education (outside of human sciences); these are two things that are strictly separated and must be conveyed to the children as strictly separated. So no crosses or religious symbols of any kind anywhere; and no teachers who wear religious clothing or somehow carry religious items. Teachers must not show their religious beliefs (similarly to how they must not shown their political beliefs). And, consequentially, no "God" in the pledge (if any pledge at all). I think that should be easliky agreeable on. There is no religious freedom if a child is pushed into a certain religion.

You lost me here. It is one thing to no have religious indoctrination in a public school. It's another to restrict religious expression by the people in the school. If a teacher or student is wearing a cross, or star of david, or whatever it is hardly the same thing as pushing religion on a student of fellow faculty member. Certainly it is not the State's job to teach religious doctrine, but when you suggest suppressing the free practice and expression you've gone too far. Now you ARE telling them what to think.

 

Besides, you know the old saying; As long as there are tests there will always be prayer in school

[injurai]

Besides, you know the old saying; As long as there are tests there will always be prayer in school

 

I don't, but that's a good one.

[IndiraLightfoot]

In part, I've grown up in countries where religion, prayers and hymns were officially banned in the educational system. I vaguely recall hymns and prayers in what you may call my pre-school years. However, my parental and grandparental generations, they have plenty of memories of this, plus Sunday Church and sunday bests, sunday school, as well as strict physical reprimands and punishment in the educational system in the name of God. There's no doubt in my mind that the removal of the official role of religion in schools has drastically affected people's practice of religion overall.

There was never any ban of religious symbols, though. Still, in the scope of a few decades, most people stopped going to Church, sunday school disappeared, almost nobody read the Bible. Parishes lost their sociocultural roles and meanings. People began to drop specific church taxes. Basically, any affected religious institutions lost their authority, and the majority of people never looked back. They became more atheist, and most religious practices became private matters.

 

So, it is to be expected that any parties with a vested interest will resist any kind of development like the one I outlined above.

 

Interestingly, the same goes for nationalism in schools. Quite a few of the nationalistic practices were removed in these countries in the same era, and this led to a significant reduction of nationalism and, indeed, over time, the flag itself became nearly devoid of meaning. Patriotism suffered as a result. Thus, nationalist politicians want to uphold as much nationalism as is humanly possible in schools, because they are well aware of what is at stake. Their precious symbols run the risk of getting deflated or even dissolved under conditions where you slacken nationalistic rituals.

 

It is in this perspective, I think Trump is best regarded. He sees himself and his institution as a bastion of nationalism and "proper" religious values. If cracks appear, he immediately fears some kind of aethist anarchist/nihilist/socialist dystopia. Ironically, after having discussed this with lots of friends and family of all ages and political affiliations, they all regard this kind of secular society as a place where individuals enjoy perhaps the greatest freedom so far. So, liberal proponents of freedom has much to gain from institutions unburdened by religion and nationalism (the latter can still go on, but more individualistically and privately).

 

Just some reflections of mine.  

Edited September 27, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[SonicMage117]

Nevermind.

Edited September 27, 2017 by SonicMage117

[SonicMage117]

In part, I've grown up in countries where religion, prayers and hymns were officially banned in the educational system. I vaguely recall hymns and prayers in what you may call my pre-school years. However, my parental and grandparental generations, they have plenty of memories of this, plus Sunday Church and sunday bests, sunday school, as well as strict physical reprimands and punishment in the educational system in the name of God. There's no doubt in my mind that the removal of the official role of religion in schools has drastically affected people's practice of religion overall.

There was never any ban of religious symbols, though. Still, in the scope of a few decades, most people stopped going to Church, sunday school disappeared, almost nobody read the Bible. Parishes lost their sociocultural roles and meanings. People began to drop specific church taxes. Basically, any affected religious institutions lost their authority, and the majority of people never looked back. They became more atheist, and most religious practices became private matters.

 

So, it is to be expected that any parties with a vested interest will resist any kind of development like the one I outlined above.

 

Interestingly, the same goes for nationalism in schools. Quite a few of the nationalistic practices were removed in these countries in the same era, and this led to a siginifcant reduction of nationalism and, indeed, over time, the flag itself became nearly devoid of meaning. Patriotism suffered as a result. Thus, nationalist politicians want to uphold as much nationalism as is humanly possible in schools, because they are well aware of what is at stake. Their precious symbols run the risk of getting deflated or even dissolved under conditions where you slacken nationalistic rituals.

 

It is in this perspective, I think Trump is best regarded. He sees himself and his institution as a bastion of nationalism and "proper" religious values. If cracks appear, he immediately fears some kind of aethist anarchist/nihilist/socialist dystopia. Ironically, after having discussed this with lots of friends and family of all ages and political affiliations, they all regard this kind of society as a place where individuals enjoy perhaps the greatest freedom so far. So, liberal proponents of freedom has much to gain from institutions unburdened by religion and nationalism (the latter can still go on, but more individualistically and privately).

 

Just some reflections of mine.

I grew up in a school where you would get detention if you missed the pledge of allegiance, you were ostracized for not standing and placing your hand over your heart for the anthem, etc etc. But after learning that my sister's kids attend a school where there are literally more transgender and fluid-gender students than normal boys and girls I had to come to accept that fact that America has gone that way. So they may as well not even have male/female labels on their bathrooms.

 

The problem is that Americans are unknowingly sacrificing freedoms at the expense of others or maybe they know and are just ignorant. There can never be total freedom if some freedom from others has to be taken to gain that freedom.

Edited September 27, 2017 by SonicMage117

[Ben No.3]

 

"Why does no one take me seriously?"

 

*posts info wars videos*

 

 

Anyway, I do understand why someone would want to ban the pledge. It does seem very scary, at least from my perspective. To a much lesser degree, the same principle applies for the flag. It just has a taste of indoctrination to it.

But maybe that's just me.

 

Where I am not willing to make any compromises is in the banning of religious items from schools. There is no place for religion inside formal education (outside of human sciences); these are two things that are strictly separated and must be conveyed to the children as strictly separated. So no crosses or religious symbols of any kind anywhere; and no teachers who wear religious clothing or somehow carry religious items. Teachers must not show their religious beliefs (similarly to how they must not shown their political beliefs). And, consequentially, no "God" in the pledge (if any pledge at all). I think that should be easliky agreeable on. There is no religious freedom if a child is pushed into a certain religion.

You lost me here. It is one thing to no have religious indoctrination in a public school. It's another to restrict religious expression by the people in the school. If a teacher or student is wearing a cross, or star of david, or whatever it is hardly the same thing as pushing religion on a student of fellow faculty member. Certainly it is not the State's job to teach religious doctrine, but when you suggest suppressing the free practice and expression you've gone too far. Now you ARE telling them what to think.

 

Besides, you know the old saying; As long as there are tests there will always be prayer in school

As Indira pointed out, giving religion a place in the educational system makes religion institutional. And this in turn of course grants religion vast societal influence. However, any secular state should not enable religion this type of institutionalised base; at least not through state institutions, which schools definitely are. Wether that ban should be extended to private schools is debatable.

But the point is that the teacher is a representative of the state. If he came into school with a hammer and sickle around his neck, that would get him into trouble because he advocates for, but at least is showing his sympathies with, a specific ideology. If he comes into school with a cross around his neck, he does the exact same thing.

I do not care what ideology the teacher has as a private person. But as an official, he ought to have none.

[injurai]

That reminds me. Missing the pledge was considered being late to class, and the big deal was that you were late, not that you missed the pledge. At least that's how I remember it. This was in elementary school so this was when half of being on-time was just your parents getting you to school. But here is the real kicker, if class was mid pledge. You waited outside the classroom until they finished, if you weren't near your classroom you were encouraged to find the nearest flag to pledge at instead of missing it all together.

[ShadySands]

You guys are overlooking the main problem

 

The pledge just flows better with "under god" in it

 

 

edit- removed my critique of modern music

Edited September 27, 2017 by ShadySands

[SonicMage117]

That reminds me. Missing the pledge was considered being late to class, and the big deal was that you were late, not that you missed the pledge. At least that's how I remember it. This was in elementary school so this was when half of being on-time was just your parents getting you to school. But here is the real kicker, if class was mid pledge. You waited outside the classroom until they finished, if you weren't near your classroom you were encouraged to find the nearest flag to pledge at instead of missing it all together.

For us it was the opposite, it was 10 minutes after the bell rang in the morning and if you were outside then the teachers wanted you to at least barge in and try to finish with the class. For us it was elementary and middle school but I can't remember if it was in High School.

 

Also we had a day called "See ya at the pole" where Christians in the school could come and pray for an hour or something, it was treated honorably. Now that God and Christianity is getting fought to get taken out of schools, everything is changing, or everything has changed since I've graduated.

[ShadySands]

Where are you from? Is that just a Texas thing? Or a bible belt thing?

 

Makes my rural country upbringing seem ultra progressive

[SonicMage117]

Where are you from? Is that just a Texas thing? Or a bible belt thing?

 

Makes my rural country upbringing seem ultra progressive

I grew up in Michigan, no it's not a Bible belt thing. Things were just different in the 90's, back then God was a huge respect in schools in general but I'm talking general public schools in the 90's, I'm sure 80's and 70's were just as respectful and fearing of the name of "God" if not more. It probably didn't really start changing until right after my time, since then the country has been devolving. I mean, as I said before, we're having one sided decisions made for the sake of comfort but stripping freedom as it were. I'm confused to why students can't be free to take a Bible into school or wear a cross necklace if someone else can wear a pentagram, etc.

[Gfted1]

The Pledge of Allegiance was definately a thing in my early school years but I cant remember doing it in high school....but maybe we did? I skipped first period, a lot. This was in the 80's so even then I dont recall it being a thing anymore. Huh, I should ask my kid if they do it.

[ShadySands]

 

Where are you from? Is that just a Texas thing? Or a bible belt thing?

 

Makes my rural country upbringing seem ultra progressive

I grew up in Michigan, no it's not a Bible belt thing. Things were just different in the 90's, back then God was a huge respect in schools in general but I'm talking general public schools in the 90's, I'm sure 80's and 70's were just as respectful and fearing of the name of "God" if not more. It probably didn't really start changing until right after my time, since then the country has been devolving. I mean, as I said before, we're having one sided decisions made for the sake of comfort but stripping freedom as it were. I'm confused to why students can't be free to take a Bible into school or wear a cross necklace if someone else can wear a pentagram, etc.

I'm pretty sure I'm older than you and this is just weird to me but on the flip side it let's me get a better understanding of where you are coming from. I dunno, I mean my very small town had like 5 7 churches but outside of the pledge and various optional (and I think outside of regular school hours) bible/prayer groups religion was absent from school... I guess unless you happened to go to one of the religious private schools but those were in "town."

 

Edit- I think we may have stopped doing the pledge in middle school or junior high as it was called when I attended but I'm almost certain we didn't do it high school either.

Edited September 27, 2017 by ShadySands

[Gfted1]

K, got a return text. Yes, they still do it. An announcement is made over the speakers to "rise and recite" the pledge. You are allowed to sit down and not participate, but they still do it. I was glad to hear that.

[Malcador]

All we had to deal with was the daily Hail Mary and occasional masses. Joys of Catholic school.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

I'm confused to why students can't be free to take a Bible into school or wear a cross necklace if someone else can wear a pentagram, etc.

 

I think you are just falling for clickbait journalism. I teach in liberal California and you can wear a cross, we have a Christian club on campus, and we do the pledge every day.

 

But really all this stuff varies from school to school, district to district, and state to state. The great war on Christianity and Country is vastly overstated.

[Volourn]

"The great war on Christianity and Country is vastly overstated."

 

Nah. No, it isn't. You said it yourself. It varies. So because your district allows those things doesn't mean others do. And, this is school we are talking about.  Schools are some of the biggest Nazis in  he world who love to ban things for all sorts of stypid reasons. This includes things like CARTWHEELS. CARTWHEELS. CARTWHEELS.

[Gfted1]

We're through the looking glass:

 

NSFW

 

Legends Football League Shades NFL.