One Word - Multiclassing!

[Micamo]

Some people define their self worth by what game achievements they have, and if anything unbalances the single player game and makes them easier to get, that makes them less valuable.

[Grimo88]

 

I'm very worried. I don't like what multiclassing does to class identity. I can live with Eder being multiclassed with rogue or priest of Eothas, but he isn't a friggen' druid.

Then don't take any druid levels for Edér. Problem solved.

 

Obviously. But from a story perspective, if someone does chose to take druid or mage, how does the story accommodate that? Or is it just a gamey thing that won't get explained? 

Edited February 5, 2017 by Grimo88

[blotter]

 

 

I'm very worried. I don't like what multiclassing does to class identity. I can live with Eder being multiclassed with rogue or priest of Eothas, but he isn't a friggen' druid.

Then don't take any druid levels for Edér. Problem solved.

 

Obviously. But from a story perspective, if someone does chose to take druid or mage, how does the story accommodate that? Or is it just a gamey thing that won't get explained? 

 

 

It seems pretty unlikely that they'd bother to create the hosts of throwaway lines necessary to cover each and every multiclass permutation that players may choose to cover with their npcs, and only doing a select few seems equally improbable given that this would make the lack of explanation for other combinations stand out even more. I'd imagine that the developers will simply trust us to produce our own rationales for npc multiclassing or at least not drive ourselves insane with the absurdity of our decisions on that front.

 

Who knows, though. I believe there was some discussion in one of the Q&A videos about potentially introducing some character-based limitations to multiclassing in regards to deities at least, and it's not altogether inconceivable that they might expand on that to add other restrictions as well if they went that route.

[hilfazer]

Don't be expecting the game's story to cover all possible multiclassing options for all companions.

[Casper]

Don't be expecting the game's story to cover all possible multiclassing options for all companions.

 

well, we can still hope. or at least hoping couldn't hurt... or, wait...

[Aleh1811]

To be honest i would prefer it if there wasnt any multiclassing. The game is complex enough as it is and many classes already serve intermediate roles. For intance, from my point of view a Paladin is a Warrior/ healer. A Druid is a warrior/mage.

 

And while paying Pillars of eternity one, many times i find that I am leveling up 3 or 4 characters at the same time. I have to choose skills, talents, habilites and spells for all of them. In some cases, like a Druid and a Priest, I get 5 new spells at the same time on top of all of that. It feels like too much to take all at the same time. Adding the desition of multiclassing everysingle level and how to do it would simply add a layer of complexity to a game which, on top of all that,  already forces me to use a calculator every time i want choose a new weapon.

 

Instead, I would prefer it if there was more of an effort in to making individual classes more different from each other. I am hopeful the subclass system will try and adress that.

[Boeroer]

I'm a bit curious how OBS wants to solve obvious problems like:

 

Everybody who wields a weapon with spell chance will take at least 1 level of barb in order to get carnage - in order to pimp the proc chance. Damage of carnage will not matter, it's just about the amount of hits you generate per swing. It would gimp you if you didn't and stay true to your class.

 

Every weapon with spell chance cries for things like Carnage, Torment's Reach, Blast, Twinned Arrows and/or Driving Flight.

 

Think about the Golden Gaze in PoE 1. It would improve the proc chance tremendously if you could have Driving Flight combined with Blast - even if you only take one level of wizard since damage of blast doesn't matter.

 

Same with Steadfast + Paladin + Barbarian/Monk in order to proc Sunlance all the time.

 

I don't say that we see those weapons or spell chances in PoE2 - I just want to point out where the pitfalls are when you combine proc chances with multiclassing.

 

I guess there will be a ton of exploits to be identified and removed in the beta. Because devs can't by any means foresee which weird and gamebreaking combos players come up with. Remember the Jolting-Touch barb or the retaliation barb? Or the multi-retaliation cipher prodigy? Only recently they patched Envenomed Strike so that it doesn't work with blast effects any more. Took a lot of time to find all those things.

 

But for me that's also fun - so I'm looking forward to multiclassing.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Boeroer

[Fardragon]

I'm very worried. I don't like what multiclassing does to class identity. I can live with Eder being multiclassed with rogue or priest of Eothas, but he isn't a friggen' druid. 

 

So far as I can make out, companions have a fixed option for multiclassing. Eder can only multiclass to Rogue, Aloth can only multiclass to Barbarian, the stretch goal companion is a cleric/monk, and so on.

 

Only the Watcher and hired mercenaries can choose any two classes.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Fardragon

[Ganrich]

 

I'm very worried. I don't like what multiclassing does to class identity. I can live with Eder being multiclassed with rogue or priest of Eothas, but he isn't a friggen' druid.

So far as I can make out, companions have a fixed option for multiclassing. Eder can only multiclass to Rogue, Aloth can only multiclass to Barbarian, the stretch goal companion is a cleric/monk, and so on.

 

Only the Watcher and hired mercenaries can choose any two classes.

Nope, companions aren't locked like that. As of right now anyway.

 

Eder's Fighter/Rogue thing isn't a multiclass, but that you can select his starting class as either Fighter or Rogue. After that you can choose to multiclass him however you want.

 

Xoti is similar in that you choose Priest or Monk for her base class.

 

I think they intend to let people MC companions however they want.

[hilfazer]

I'm a bit curious how OBS wants to solve obvious problems like:

 

Everybody who wields a weapon with spell chance will take at least 1 level of barb in order to get carnage - in order to pimp the proc chance. Damage of carnage will not matter, it's just about the amount of hits you generate per swing. It would gimp you if you didn't and stay true to your class.

 

Every weapon with spell chance cries for things like Carnage, Torment's Reach, Blast, Twinned Arrows and/or Driving Flight.

 

Think about the Golden Gaze in PoE 1. It would improve the proc chance tremendously if you could have Driving Flight combined with Blast - even if you only take one level of wizard since damage of blast doesn't matter.

 

Same with Steadfast + Paladin + Barbarian/Monk in order to proc Sunlance all the time.

 

I don't say that we see those weapons or spell chances in PoE2 - I just want to point out where the pitfalls are when you combine proc chances with multiclassing.

 

I guess there will be a ton of exploits to be identified and removed in the beta. Because devs can't by any means foresee which weird and gamebreaking combos players come up with. Remember the Jolting-Touch barb or the retaliation barb? Or the multi-retaliation cipher prodigy? Only recently they patched Envenomed Strike so that it doesn't work with blast effects any more. Took a lot of time to find all those things.

 

But for me that's also fun - so I'm looking forward to multiclassing.

 

They may kill fun by destroying some stuff, be it talents or weapon procs.

 

While the sane thing to do is basically doing nothing. Having specific items influence design of your classes, their abilities is at the very least questionable (I really wanted to call it 'wrong').

 

Take that soulbound wand for example. It can make your druid spiritshift twice per combat. Now imagine devs are like this:

 

"Oh no, we need to cut spiritshift duration in half because there exists an item that comes from a side quest so not everyone will get it, that can be obtained later in the game so it won't affect spiritshif early in the game, that can only be used by one druid while player can have up to six not to mention all other druids in the game, that player may very well give to his wizard or priest and since its soulbound it can't be easily swapped, that needs to be leveled by doing damage with it, that has a chance to give druid second spiritshift in combat effectively doubling its duration. Having duration both halved and doubled will result in pre-nerf duration that game is balanced around so it has to be the right thing to do!"

 

There's so much wrong with it. But since the game is single player developers have the luxury of not balancing absolutely everything and addition of multiclassing makes me believe they want to take advantage of that luxury. The first thing I would not balance are specific, unique items.

[theBalthazar]

It is impossible to perfect balance a game with multi-class.

 

PoE 1 himself is NOT balanced. There is clearly classes better than others.

 

So, the job of developpers is to reduce the large differences between classes.

 

But, in fact, you cannot remove all difference of theorical scale of power.

Edited February 5, 2017 by theBalthazar

[JerekKruger]

And while paying Pillars of eternity one, many times i find that I am leveling up 3 or 4 characters at the same time. I have to choose skills, talents, habilites and spells for all of them. In some cases, like a Druid and a Priest, I get 5 new spells at the same time on top of all of that. It feels like too much to take all at the same time. Adding the desition of multiclassing everysingle level and how to do it would simply add a layer of complexity to a game which, on top of all that,  already forces me to use a calculator every time i want choose a new weapon.

 

So don't multiclass in PoE2. Seems simple enough.

[JerekKruger]

It is impossible to perfect balance a game with multi-class.

 

PoE 1 himself is NOT balanced. There is clearly classes better than others.

 

So, the job of developpers is to reduce the large differences between classes.

 

But, in fact, you cannot remove all difference of theorical scale of power.

 

Yep, I think the best one can hope for is that the weakest class combinations are still fun and powerful enough to be able to play on the hardest difficulty, and that the most powerful class combinations aren't ridiculously overpowered in ways that make the game trivial.

 

Perfect balance is impossible to achieve in competitive multiplayer games where the developers have the benefit of a constant revenue stream from microtransactions to keep working on balance, so the idea that it could ever been achieved in a game like Deadfire is wishful thinking.

[Osvir]

Design the game for the archetype:

​Tank/Warrior
​Scout/Thief
Healer/Aid
Mage/Mystic
​Ranger/Archer

​Make the difficulty hard for the "Standard", this is the 100% difficulty. Now, lower the Multiclass options strength into the 70%-80% range. That's what they're already doing, right? I expect Multiclass options to be weaker in the early game, and then grow to be stronger if they're built purposedfully. They could also just fall short if not used to their fullest potential, and be weaksauce joke gimmick oddball theme characters.

​EDIT: I also think you should need to Proc a point on a Weapons Type before being able to use it. This would allow for much more variety in builds as well. A few more additions would be welcome as well, such as Inscribing Spells on Wands, Staffs, and even Body (Tattoo). A Barbarian/Wizard "Wild Mage" (I really think "Shaman" should be Chanter/Priest, a "Shaman" is one who talks to spirits), a tribal Wizard that tattoo's spells on their body.

​Like, "Spell Tattoo" being a weapon type like "Wand", and also having "Grimoire" features that you could maybe "Add Spells" to it as well (just not as many as in a Grimoire). And maybe Spells being cast from Tattoo's are "Wild" in nature? (50% to fail, fizzle, or backfire).

​A Gandalf type Batllemage, "Sword" in one one hand, and "Staff" in the other (If "Spears" can be one-handed, could "Staves" also be?). Also being able to "Add Spells" into "Wands" (Dual-Wielding Wand Mage~ Rogue/Wizard - Wandslinger?) and "Staves" (More power if held Two-Handed, but could also Dual Wield?).

​The point: The Multiclass options need tools, equipment, perhaps restrictions even. "Can't use that weapon"-type kind of deal, to both steer the Multiclass options in directions, and also to define the Multiclass.

​What I'm suggesting is something like, when hovering/deciding (Tooltip) when Leveling into a Multiclass: "Rogue/Wizard - Wandslinger: +1 Wand Proficiency"~ and "Can't use Plate Armor".

Edited February 5, 2017 by Osvir

[morhilane]

I'm a bit curious how OBS wants to solve obvious problems like:

 

Everybody who wields a weapon with spell chance will take at least 1 level of barb in order to get carnage - in order to pimp the proc chance. Damage of carnage will not matter, it's just about the amount of hits you generate per swing. It would gimp you if you didn't and stay true to your class.

 

Every weapon with spell chance cries for things like Carnage, Torment's Reach, Blast, Twinned Arrows and/or Driving Flight.

 

Think about the Golden Gaze in PoE 1. It would improve the proc chance tremendously if you could have Driving Flight combined with Blast - even if you only take one level of wizard since damage of blast doesn't matter.

 

Same with Steadfast + Paladin + Barbarian/Monk in order to proc Sunlance all the time.

 

I don't say that we see those weapons or spell chances in PoE2 - I just want to point out where the pitfalls are when you combine proc chances with multiclassing.

 

I guess there will be a ton of exploits to be identified and removed in the beta. Because devs can't by any means foresee which weird and gamebreaking combos players come up with. Remember the Jolting-Touch barb or the retaliation barb? Or the multi-retaliation cipher prodigy? Only recently they patched Envenomed Strike so that it doesn't work with blast effects any more. Took a lot of time to find all those things.

 

But for me that's also fun - so I'm looking forward to multiclassing.

 

You could use spellchance weapons with a Barbarian in POE1 (St. Ydwen's Redeemer or the Vent Pick for example). Also, the fix for that is to make only the initial hit apply the effect (haven't they already patched it like that in POE1 anyway?).

 

We are probably going to get some OP combo, Josh is more interested in avoiding bad builds than stopping the existence of OP builds.

[Aotrs Commander]

 

Yep, I think the best one can hope for is that the weakest class combinations are still fun and powerful enough to be able to play on the hardest difficulty, and that the most powerful class combinations aren't ridiculously overpowered in ways that make the game trivial.

 

Perfect balance is impossible to achieve in competitive multiplayer games where the developers have the benefit of a constant revenue stream from microtransactions to keep working on balance, so the idea that it could ever been achieved in a game like Deadfire is wishful thinking.

 

 

Not only that, but even if you somehow could, you run the risk of the equal problem of homogenising the classes. (One of 4E's problems, though I understand late supplements attempt to do something with this). And whe you get to the point one class is much the same as another, the choice between them is not really a choice.

 

To some extent you NEED to have some disparity of good and bad in the choices you make for your character (class, class abilites/spells, race etc) to avoid that; the grand trick is, of course, trying to make those good/bad choices not absolute (nor crippling if one does pick them), but relative to what role said character is going to be performing (class or clas combination, in this instance, or more specifically what sort of role that particualr characte rof that class is aiming for. Rather like in D&D how you can have two characters of the same class that are build such as they can perform different job (melee fighter verses archer fighter, for example, or blasting cster verses summoner or something; you get the idea.

 

You yeah, you kind of need to have a system where, peforce, there will be an optimal build for a particualr role; the trick is to make it so that the power disparity between the optimum and modal (and the most suboptimal) is reasonably tight.

[Boeroer]

 

You could use spellchance weapons with a Barbarian in POE1 (St. Ydwen's Redeemer or the Vent Pick for example). Also, the fix for that is to make only the initial hit apply the effect (haven't they already patched it like that in POE1 anyway?).

 

 

Erm... yes. Of course. That was the whole point of my post.

 

Not it wasn't patched. In fact, you can still have higher proc chance with Carnage, Blast, Torment's Reach, Driving Flight and Twinned Arrows as well as with multi-projectile weapons like Blunderbuss and Golden Gaze.

 

What they patched only recently was that some special attacks like Knockdown (from Girdle of the Driving Wave) and Envenomed Strike worked in an AoE when you combined them with blast effects (Spirit Lance, implements' blast).

 

What I was saying is that some combos (you can think of are in PoE2) may be just too good to not multiclass (even if destroys your build from a roleplaying perspective) - and may it even be only 1 level. I'm curious how OBS will solve this. I'm not saying they can't and I'm not saying that they need to exterminate such things completely. Just curious.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Boeroer

[Failedlegend]

 

 

I'm very worried. I don't like what multiclassing does to class identity. I can live with Eder being multiclassed with rogue or priest of Eothas, but he isn't a friggen' druid.

Then don't take any druid levels for Edér. Problem solved.

 

Obviously. But from a story perspective, if someone does chose to take druid or mage, how does the story accommodate that? Or is it just a gamey thing that won't get explained? 

 

 

No the devs are not going to waste resources for even a little blurb for every single possible companion multi-class, luckily they don't need to because we have an incredible thing called imagination, often referred to as head canon....the same reason that Eder is still Eder even if i spec him to use bows, a big two-hander or heavy armor and shield.

 

I also repeat, if you don't want to multi-class then just don't, no reason to remove the feature.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Failedlegend

[morhilane]

 

You could use spellchance weapons with a Barbarian in POE1 (St. Ydwen's Redeemer or the Vent Pick for example). Also, the fix for that is to make only the initial hit apply the effect (haven't they already patched it like that in POE1 anyway?).

Erm... yes. Of course. That was the whole point of my post.

 

Not it wasn't patched. In fact, you can still have higher proc chance with Carnage, Blast, Torment's Reach, Driving Flight and Twinned Arrows as well as with multi-projectile weapons like Blunderbuss and Golden Gaze.

 

What they patched only recently was that some special attacks like Knockdown (from Girdle of the Driving Wave) and Envenomed Strike worked in an AoE when you combined them with blast effects (Spirit Lance, implements' blast).

 

What I was saying is that some combos (you can think of are in PoE2) may be just too good to not multiclass (even if destroys your build from a roleplaying perspective) - and may it even be only 1 level. I'm curious how OBS will solve this. I'm not saying they can't and I'm not saying that they need to exterminate such things completely. Just curious.

 

If they didn't consider that a problem in POE1, I don't see why they would consider that a problem for POE2...

[theBalthazar]

There an another problem with multiclass.

 

For "normal player" the game must stay readable. So...

 

When you start the game, optimization cannot be an obligation. The game must be playable with all configurations.

 

Eventually, PoTD is less concerned by this effect. (Players must knows all the mecanics).

[Doppelschwert]

What I was saying is that some combos (you can think of are in PoE2) may be just too good to not multiclass (even if destroys your build from a roleplaying perspective) - and may it even be only 1 level. I'm curious how OBS will solve this. I'm not saying they can't and I'm not saying that they need to exterminate such things completely. Just curious.

How is that a problem?

In particular, how is this any different to the 'temptation' of playing a stronger character in the first place instead?

You'll either go for a roleplaying concept or a character build. Switching between the two is at most a problem for the discipline of the player, but not for the game.

 

Pure classes don't need to be strictly better in every case, they just need to be strictly better in certain cases. It doesn't matter if there is some combination that makes level diping lucrative, as long as there is some other merit to stick to the class as well, and I bet that will go down to player preference.

[Ganrich]

There an another problem with multiclass.

 

For "normal player" the game must stay readable. So...

 

When you start the game, optimization cannot be an obligation. The game must be playable with all configurations.

 

Eventually, PoTD is less concerned by this effect. (Players must knows all the mecanics).

Pretty sure the difficulty settings are still intended to increase the necessity for optimization.

 

Story mode is "lol who cares?" Then the higher you climb in difficulty the more you need to understand systems and be optimized.

[JerekKruger]

I tend to agree with Doppelschwert. Since their introduction in 2.0, several of the "cross class talents" have become staples for almost every build on the Strategy subforum. In particular, Apprentice Sneak Attack and Outlander's Frenzy are very common, with the latter being a key ingredient in reaching 0 recovery for a lot of builds. Yet I often skip them specifically because they don't fit my role-playing image of my character.

[Blades of Vanatar]

I say the more build options the better. For me that is part of the fun.

 

Play through 1 - Enjoy the story.

 

Play through 2 - Attempt to choose paths that I didn't follow on Play through 1.

 

Play through 3-forever after - Have fun with everything else the game engine has to offer. I call this little tidbit 'Getting my money's worth.'

[Madscientist]

I did not read everything above, so sorry if I reapeat somebody:

 

- I like the general concept

 

- In NWN1+2, multi classing was good for chars who fight with weapons while casters should maximize their caster level (a general rule of thumb, there are exceptions). By looking at Joshs video, I think few levels of a "weapon class" and many levels of a caster class sound good. something like:

  + rogue + cipher: ciphers can inflict infinite debuffs if they have focus. Rogues do lots of damage if the target is debuffed. Lots of damage causes lots of focus.

  + fighter + wizard: weapon specialisation + confident aim from fighter and a mage with a summoned weapon, accurency buff and mirror image

  + monk + druid: Monk gives unarmed bonus and special attacks if he gets hit, a shapeshifted druid uses these special attacks with his claws (which count as unarmed hopefully)

 

- possible problems with some classes:

- Barbarian are all about carnage. If 1 level of barbarian gives carnage to any melee attack it would be very overpowered.

- The special things of rangers is their pet. When it only levels up with the ranger class it will become useless if you multi class (There was a talent for that in NWN2, the pet version of "practissed caster", name forgotten, sorry)

 

I will wait until I get more info before I make more guesses about the system.