Dragon Age: Inquistion

[Amentep]

I'd disagree with that. Or alternatively catharisis isn't the word I'm looking for, one or the other. Probably the other.

 

So trying to side step word definitions, my point is that people can explore "bad things" in fictional narrative without necessarily agreeing with those bad things or even wanting to participate in those bad things and in that way they can sate their curiosity or interest through that exploration.

 

The idea that Twilight is somehow worth "stopping" because the relationship between Bella and Edward has elements of a classically abusive relationship (and that Bella is a weak female who has to be supported by men) misses the point that readers can read the book and explore that relationship from a distance without wanting to model that relationship in real life anymore than a person who reads books on serial killers is necessarily going to become a serial killer.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Amentep

[IndiraLightfoot]

I see what you mean, Amentep. A case in point, I suppose, is The Perfume, where the protagonist, Grenouille, is pretty despicable throughout, but still he allows us to explore "bad aspects" within our selves. It's one of the scariest books I've read, btw, and the reason for that is perhaps because it made me, somehow, by proxy (?), get scared off the dark recesses in my own predisposition.

Edited May 8, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Nepenthe]

I had to go back and double check this was the Dragon Age thread.

[Orogun01]

I had to go back and double check this was the Dragon Age thread.

Freddy Krueger, Crime and Punishment, and Twilight. What are you not following.

[Gromnir]

I'd disagree with that. Or alternatively catharisis isn't the word I'm looking for, one or the other. Probably the other.

 

So trying to side step word definitions, my point is that people can explore "bad things" in fictional narrative without necessarily agreeing with those bad things or even wanting to participate in those bad things and in that way they can sate their curiosity or interest through that exploration.

 

The idea that Twilight is somehow worth "stopping" because the relationship between Bella and Edward has elements of a classically abusive relationship (and that Bella is a weak female who has to be supported by men) misses the point that readers can read the book and explore that relationship from a distance without wanting to model that relationship in real life anymore than a person who reads books on serial killers is necessarily going to become a serial killer.

we can read Lolita and be amazed by Nabokov's craft. the thing is, we read Lolita with full awareness o' the nature o' the relationship. is a young girl and a much older man. there is some poignant moments in Lolita, particularly at the end of the novel, but Nabokov does not shy away from the realities o' the relationship. twilight is not 'bout the realities. twilight is the fantasy, and where as Lolita is open and honest with readers 'bout Humbert's fascination with "nymphets," twilight uses vampire shtick to camouflage. 

 

is the camouflage a bad thing? not necessarily. authors does such stuff all the time-- call it extended metaphor and get all pompous 'bout their cleverness. hell, is the kinda thing we does. regardless, am not thinking that the target audience can see through the camouflage. if a generation o' teenage girls were writing Humbert + ________ on their notebooks, or were picturing Humbert as he sparkled in the sunlight, most o' us adult folks would be dismayed and a bit appalled.... and conflicted 'cause we would be happily shocked that so many young folks were reading Nabokov. nevertheless, make Humbert a vampire, and it is all ok... 'cause then he is a fantasy protagonist, and 'cause the target audience is too gullible to see through the camouflage. 

 

is creepy. even if is fantasy, is creepy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 8, 2014 by Gromnir

[Amentep]

Thing is I'm not sure they are gullible; Edward is a fantasy guy, as such he's just as unobtainable as the Pirate Captains and the western gunslingers in romance novels my work friends read. The fantasy of the relationship was appealing, rather than its ability to be replicated in the real world.

[Endrosz]

This whole discussion deserves its own topic, it seems, and I apologize for taking part in derailing the OT.

 

I'd disagree with that. Or alternatively catharisis isn't the word I'm looking for, one or the other. Probably the other.

So trying to side step word definitions, my point is that people can explore "bad things" in fictional narrative without necessarily agreeing with those bad things or even wanting to participate in those bad things and in that way they can sate their curiosity or interest through that exploration.

The idea that Twilight is somehow worth "stopping" because the relationship between Bella and Edward has elements of a classically abusive relationship (and that Bella is a weak female who has to be supported by men) misses the point that readers can read the book and explore that relationship from a distance without wanting to model that relationship in real life anymore than a person who reads books on serial killers is necessarily going to become a serial killer.

 

*sigh*

 

I need to try a different approach. You're constantly sidestepping the issue of audience. The books don't have mature labels on them, because these subjects are woven in to the fabric, so to speak, not obvious, and read my millions of teenage girls.

 

If your own 12 year old daughter wanted to read the Twilight Saga, would you give the OK to that? That's an actual question from a mothers' forum, I just googled around to get an idea how young the readers of these books are.

 

---

 

Also, to give you a perspective on responsibility related to young readers/viewers, here's the after-story of a Stephen King book, Rage.

 

 

Connections to actual school shootings

The novel's plot vaguely resembles actual events that have transpired since the book's publication, to a degree that the author is no longer comfortable with the book being in print for fear that it may inspire similar occurrences ("[Rage is] now out of print."^[1]) as it had already been associated with incidents of high school shootings and hostage takings:

(list of shootings)

 

"The Carneal incident was enough for me. I asked my publisher to take the damned thing out of print. They concurred."^[8] King went on to describe his view on this subject, which acknowledged the role that cultural or artistic products such as Rage play in influencing individuals, particularly troubled youths, while also declaring that artists and writers can not be denied the aesthetic opportunity to draw upon their own culture—which is suffused with violence, according to King—in their work.^[8]

He went on to describe his inspiration for stories such as Rage, which drew heavily upon his own frustrations and pains as a high school student.^[8]

...

 

There goes your free exploration of dangerous subjects. That's for adults (with a sane mind, I might add), not confused teens.

[BruceVC]

I had to go back and double check this was the Dragon Age thread.

 

Nep when do we ever stick to the topic at hand all the time  

[Gromnir]

Thing is I'm not sure they are gullible; Edward is a fantasy guy, as such he's just as unobtainable as the Pirate Captains and the western gunslingers in romance novels my work friends read. The fantasy of the relationship was appealing, rather than its ability to be replicated in the real world.

you got a point. still, if edward is a fifty-year old professor from new jersey, even if is a fantasy, am thinking we got a Very different scenario in the minds o' teenage girls and parents, and others. also, we doubt the female protagonists in such romances your friends read is teenage girls.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

"I dread to think that they might ruin him "a la Anders", returning characters could either be very good(if they stick to what the character is) or very bad(if they decide to try their hand at development)."

 

They didn't 'ruin' Anders. They had him 'grow', change, and adapt. He was already on the path in DA1.  I enjoyed putting the psycho out of his misery. i knew he was crazy in DA1 the moment he wanted to have sex with a cat.

 

 

"its a fantasy - its the one way you'll see a guy actually acting right in a relationship".

 

\That's evil.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Volourn

[Gromnir]

aside: we wish Di still posted, seeing as how she were a romance novelist. no doubt we would be appalled by her contributions, but we can still mourn the absence.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Serrano]

i knew he was crazy in DA1 the moment he wanted to have sex with a cat.

 

The new warden commander doesn't seem like such a bad guy for making him give it up now does he? 

Edited May 8, 2014 by Serrano

[Drowsy Emperor]

This thread is about as derailed as Bioware's take on human sexuality.

 

 

At this point that's all it has in common with Dragon Age.

[marelooke]

"I dread to think that they might ruin him "a la Anders", returning characters could either be very good(if they stick to what the character is) or very bad(if they decide to try their hand at development)."

 

They didn't 'ruin' Anders. They had him 'grow', change, and adapt. He was already on the path in DA1.  I enjoyed putting the psycho out of his misery. i knew he was crazy in DA1 the moment he wanted to have sex with a cat.

 

 

"its a fantasy - its the one way you'll see a guy actually acting right in a relationship".

 

\That's evil.

Okeeeee, it seems I'll need to pick up my (unfinished, due to a game breaking bug) Awakening playthrough again...

[HoonDing]

Anders was insufferable in Awakenings, but he was awesome in DA2. Blowing up the Chantry was hilarious not to mention the butthurt it caused Bonnie Prince Charlie.

 

The entire endgame of DA2 was like entering the Eye of Terror.

[TheChris92]

Gaider's blog discussion reminded me of my review of Her in the movie thread of this very site -- I noted that the concept of Spike Jonze's Her of falling in love with an Operating System could be related to BioWare fans, partly as a joke, but also to draw perspective between the parallels -- It brings up the question of how emotional gratification can be achieved without physical consummation, and what it is that makes it appealling to folks. If Gaider has to draw inspiration from anything, then be it from Spike Jonze or anything of Charlie Kauffman, where the love is treated with a more authentic approach.

Edited May 8, 2014 by TheChris92

[Drowsy Emperor]

I found that film pretty mediocre. If you replace the SF element with a regular girl you get a pretty mundane story or rather, it becomes more obvious that the story, beneath all the sf trappings - is quite mundane. 

[TheChris92]

If you choose to look at it that way then alright -- If you replace Batman in the Nolan films with a random vigilante bloke, then I suppose you'll just get a generic action film, if you choose to ignore that the film might have a larger message beneath it, hidden either in its characters disposition, the editing, cinematography etc. If you'd like to hear why I brought it up then check out the film thread as I wrote a critical analyze there -- Spike Jonze's Her was just an example, there are plenty of unique romantic-dramas out there -- Like Never Let Me Go, Mr. Nobody etc, that carries a lot of heart either through elaborate usage of humor or unique narrative structure etc. Anyway, we'll save that discussion for the Movie thread if you really wanna have it

Edited May 8, 2014 by TheChris92

[sorophx]

oops wrong thread

Edited May 8, 2014 by sorophx

[Orogun01]

 

Thing is I'm not sure they are gullible; Edward is a fantasy guy, as such he's just as unobtainable as the Pirate Captains and the western gunslingers in romance novels my work friends read. The fantasy of the relationship was appealing, rather than its ability to be replicated in the real world.

you got a point. still, if edward is a fifty-year old professor from new jersey, even if is a fantasy, am thinking we got a Very different scenario in the minds o' teenage girls and parents, and others. also, we doubt the female protagonists in such romances your friends read is teenage girls.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

I find the fact that decades old vampire would willingly summit themselves to highschool periodically more unbelievable than disturbing. Plus, it has been said that there is no way that a cultured vampire would find anything attractive on a vapid teenager.(other than her blood, which just goes to remind you that guys only want one thing)

Lolita and Twilight are different because Twilight is not an old guy masquerading as an young one but the reverse. Is someone with no depth but the implication of one whose existence is devoted to someone ever more shallow than he. IDK if that was your point, but I didn't get that from your post.

[Gromnir]

I found that film pretty mediocre. If you replace the SF element with a regular girl you get a pretty mundane story or rather, it becomes more obvious that the story, beneath all the sf trappings - is quite mundane. 

wouldn't say that it had an "authentic approach" to romance neither...  pretty far removed from authentic. 500 miles and across a mountain range removed from authentic. 

 

that being said, while we thinks authentic romance is better than twilight as source material, amentep brings up the excellent point that the women friends o' his who is reading the romance books is not reading for authentic-- they want fantasy. dave is in the business o' selling fantasy.  as such, authentic may not serve dave all that well either.

 

*shrug*

 

dunno. maybe Gromnir is wrong, but we thinks twilight is not appealing to adult notions o' romance, fantasy or otherwise. is our opinion that twilight romance is deserving o' those criticisms dave hates seeing level'd at bio romances: juvenile, puerile, insipid, and seriously f'd up. that is why we would hope dave doesn't let the effectiveness o' twilight romances with fourteen-year old girls mentally poleaxe him into adopting twilight gimmicks for his writings.

 

on the positive side, dave did seem to thinks twilight's positives were largely limited to romance. if he keeps trite twilight melodrama limited to the romances, we not care one bit.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[Amentep]

*sigh*

 

I need to try a different approach. You're constantly sidestepping the issue of audience. The books don't have mature labels on them, because these subjects are woven in to the fabric, so to speak, not obvious, and read my millions of teenage girls.

Do books have "mature" labels on them now? I haven't seen them and thought that was once only the realm of visual media. I have seen the same book in adult and in kids and in teen - and Twilight is one of them (as was Harry Potter and the Poison Study series).

 

If your own 12 year old daughter wanted to read the Twilight Saga, would you give the OK to that? That's an actual question from a mothers' forum, I just googled around to get an idea how young the readers of these books are.

Depends on the 12 year old daughter, wouldn't it (their maturity level, their interest, their ability to understand the material)?

 

Also, to give you a perspective on responsibility related to young readers/viewers, here's the after-story of a Stephen King book, Rage.

 

...

 

There goes your free exploration of dangerous subjects. That's for adults (with a sane mind, I might add), not confused teens.

I've read of King's views on RAGE before, but I don't believe Rage caused those incidents anymore than I believe Catcher in the Rye caused Mark David Chapman to shoot John Lennon, to be honest.

 

Its his work to self-censor, though.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Amentep

[NOK222]

I've also read all four twilight books, so on good authority I can say this...

 

It's written by a mormon housewife who fantasized about her perfect man whom gave the main movie actor "the creeps". This manifested itself in an abusive and stalkerish relationship in the books which we find ourselves rooting for regardless. While the woman manipulates the feelings of two men. 

 

Also:

 

Violent childbirth

Suicide attempts

Casual murder cause lulz

 

What I will give the series is that I was interested in some of the background of the lore. Like the origin of vampires, more native american shapeshifters, and there was a mention of real "werewolves". 

 

If this is what Gaider is basing his romance off. It's doomed to fail. 

Edited May 8, 2014 by NKKKK

[Bryy]

If this is what Gaider is basing his romance off. It's doomed to fail. 

Not what he said in the slightest.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

I found that film pretty mediocre. If you replace the SF element with a regular girl you get a pretty mundane story or rather, it becomes more obvious that the story, beneath all the sf trappings - is quite mundane. 

wouldn't say that it had an "authentic approach" to romance neither...  pretty far removed from authentic. 500 miles and across a mountain range removed from authentic. 

 

that being said, while we thinks authentic romance is better than twilight as source material, amentep brings up the excellent point that the women friends o' his who is reading the romance books is not reading for authentic-- they want fantasy. dave is in the business o' selling fantasy.  as such, authentic may not serve dave all that well either.

 

*shrug*

 

dunno. maybe Gromnir is wrong, but we thinks twilight is not appealing to adult notions o' romance, fantasy or otherwise. is our opinion that twilight romance is deserving o' those criticisms dave hates seeing level'd at bio romances: juvenile, puerile, insipid, and seriously f'd up. that is why we would hope dave doesn't let the effectiveness o' twilight romances with fourteen-year old girls mentally poleaxe him into adopting twilight gimmicks for his writings.

 

on the positive side, dave did seem to thinks twilight's positives were largely limited to romance. if he keeps trite twilight melodrama limited to the romances, we not care one bit.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

 

I was talking about the movie "Her" but then you may be aware of that. Can't tell from your response. The dynamic in "Her" is essentially lonely awkward guy falls for the equivalent of an teenager. She's an "AI" but basically you could put an infatuated teenager in her place and you'd get the same outcome. The outcome is that she grows up and moves on and he doesn't although the ending scenes implies that a more natural relationship might be in his future.