Update #58: Crafting with Tim Cain!

[WotanAnubis]

Crafting, eh? Yeah, great, whatever. Neat, I guess. I only care about crafting in Monster Hunter because new armours and weapons look new and different and neat and I'm all about the dressing up.

 

But gathering herbs to make potions? Most of the time I have enough money to just buy them and not waste my time.

 

So I'm rather indifferent towards crafting.

 

 

 

All of the classes are in the game now, along with their abilities and spells up to level 5.

 

Now this, on the other hand, is interesting. Hopefully we'll get more info on the classes in future updates now that the basics have apparently been hammered out for all of them.

[Sheikh]

I am pretty skeptical based on this update about crafting. Sounds like itll be a window dressing or like runescape.

 

Also by what logic does repair skill make your weapons break less when you use them? Now that sounds like morrowind or oblivion...

 

On the other hand I think durability may play a more important role, if you are travelling through to somewhere and many of your weapons break for some reason and you have to go back to the area you started your journey from.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Sheikh

[godsend1989]

Best crafting in my opinion at least is in Gothic games because there you actualy make swords not just a pop up windows appears and bam your item is crafted like in Skyrim, thats cheap but anyway i don`t think this will work in a isometric game or does it ? you could make the forge anvil and honing wheel clickable,this could mean alot of work if you want to make it properly or dont and focus on something else in the game.

[mstark]

You should not make the game worse as a whole just to buff up the "Crafting Skill" to make to comparable to other skills. 

This. If crafting and durability is to be in the game, it should not come at the cost of gameplay quality ("enjoyment") in order to make it a viable mechanic choice. Many a game has fallen into this trap. Ask "does it add or detract from the core experience?"

 

I have hope that PE will pull off "crafting" more elegantly than other "RPG's" of this past decade, but the description given in the first post gives a very The Elder Scrolls-esque impression of it. It would be great if crafting was not "get ingredients abc, press button, receive item x" for once. Add some lore, some dialogue, some pizzazz. I know there's a budget specifically for crafting (it was a stretch goal, after all), I'd love to see it used to create a more unique system that captures some of the magic of true craft. For example, it could be used to implement a guild of master craftsmen that don't lend their skills to just anyone, but if you happen to turn up with a backpack full of "moon dragon scales", they just couldn't keep their hands off of it! Make it something special.

 

I think part of the reason crafting has gotten quite a bad connotation in "modern" games is because most of the excitement has been taken out of it. It's either a form of gambling, a money sink, or an alternative way of getting items that can be gotten somewhere else. When I picture blacksmithing, I think of the heat of the forge, the red hot iron on the anvil, the resounding ring of the hammer as it strikes, sparks flying everywhere. No game can quite capture this, so it there another way of making it exciting?

Edited July 3, 2013 by mstark

[ImRhoven]

Meh.

 

I can't say I ever had MORE fun in a game just because it had durability, but this does seem a good way to implement it. And it gives you something to do with your ridiculously large stack of riches you accumulate in this sort of game. So I'm not against the implementation of a durability system.

 

I'm currently making another attempt to go through the whole of NWN2 + expansions (Only had to reload once because of progress breaking bug so far! improvement over my last attempt!), which has a similar crafting system (sans durability) and I haven't used it at all so far, nor have I missed it. So, again not against it, but don't go spending a lot of development resources on this on my account.

[rjshae]

I've never been much of a fan of crafting so I rarely use it unless it is essential. On the other hand, item degradation is a nice touch of realism so I appreciate that addition. Thanks for the update.

[clippedwolf]

If a hearth is just a camp fire, why shouldn't you be able to create one anywhere in the wilderness at anytime you make camp?  To not allow this is an arbitrary limitation.  

[mstark]

I can't say I ever had MORE fun in a game just because it had durability, but this does seem a good way to implement it. And it gives you something to do with your ridiculously large stack of riches you accumulate in this sort of game. So I'm not against the implementation of a durability system.

If I have ridiculously large stacks of gold lying around, repairs very quickly become a meaningless chore. An extra button to click every time you visit town, nothing else.

 

If durability is to be a meaningful mechanic, it should create meaningful choices. Eg. "I have accumulated the fairly sizeable wealth of 10 pure gold coins, do I spend 5 of them to repair my dragon fang cudgel of smothering, or do I buy the food I may require during my next adventure?"

 

If durability only exists to send you back to town in regular intervals, it's not a meaningful mechanic.

Edited July 3, 2013 by mstark

[Phanox]

This update troubles me.

 

I love the old IE games, and I especially like how they did crafting in BG2. It was a select few items you could craft and the materials required was a lot of gold and usually a few single special items like dragon-scale which required you to slay a dragon! You were worthy of the powerful item you crafted! And the items were unique and had lore connected to them, and not just some random +3 item. That is a cool crafting-system.

 

After reading this update I'm concerned it will be a very MMO-esque system, with a crafting-interface and you go "Oh, I need some wood for the next upgrade, better go lumberjacking instead of actually adventuring", or monsters will be riddled with woolen twines and leatherstraps for you to collect. And honestly, it's not my idea of an epic adventure to go around collecting scraps and what not. It also very much takes out the charm of items if you just create the next arbitary upgrade for your party. I think it's A LOT cooler to find something special in a dungeon than smithing away at an anvil. A lot of lore and unique-ness is lost if it's just something you can make yourself. Even if the materials ARE exotic.

 

In short; crafting is in general a boring drag. It's the reason you roll a fighter or a mage and not a blacksmith and sit and hammer all day. Cromwell and especially Cespenar were memorable characters in BG2 which made crafting a bit special, especially what Cromwell could craft.

[Nonek]

Fletching, what crafting station do we use? So long as I have the arrow heads, if i'm using them, then all I need is a fire to help straighten the shafts and boil the glue for the flights, as well as a sharp knife.

[Grampa Borjoyzee]

I see alot of dislike for the durability system on this thread, but I would prefer that some option at least remain in place a la new vegas thirst. 

 

The concern I have with the crafting that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that in, say, NWN 2 I felt as if I had to make the perfect crafter. This led to extremely restrictive growth in at least one of my characters, usually Sand (who has been mentioned), and left a sour taste in my mouth. Everybody has made good points on all sides, I guess my question would be if I want to enchant something do I have to have a certain spell or ability at a certain level? Will crafting require any direction of character development besides points/quests/etc. into the crafting skill?

 

Feeling positive about this business!

[Shadowy]

The item durability feature almost seems like a compromise between the two camps(item durability vs. no item durability), but not really in a good way.

It seems kind of pointless and inconsequential, except as a moneysink.

 

From 100% to 1% durability: No problem!

0% durability: Oh, you just lost a durability point? Here, now your weapon/armour is suddenly only half as good.

[andar90]

Most of this sounds pretty cool. 

 

I will say that I hate...HATE...dealing with items breaking down in games. However, if we can deal with it fairly easily through crafting then I guess it isn't a big deal.

 

Thank goodness a companion can do it for me, so I don't have to take crafting if I don't want to.

[Elerond]

To me it looks that item durability is added to make crafting more potential choice of skill for every character, so that there is not only one min-maxed craftsman in the team. Although to accomplish this repairing need to be actual money sink and not only chore, so it should cost so much that it actually dents you wallet, but not so much that it invalids builds that don't have crafting entirely, but enough that you need to think every time do you take crafting or some other skill. 

 

Crafting itself don't look like mmo crafting, where you craft new stuff, but way to make you existing stuff better or get short time benefits (cooking), so it isn't economical balance crafting like in mmo, but ability make your character better, which make crafting more comparable skill to other non-combat skills like stealth and conversation-skills, which means that it gives you option to play game in different way, which is more combat oriented route. Which is quite different role for crafting compared to mmos economical crafting, where crafting is non-combat way to acquire more money. 

 

So for me it looks that crafting and item durability will be nice features in PE, as crafting gives you better combat characters by giving you ability get permanent and short time combat benefits. And item durability will work as money sink, which impact you can lower if you put your skill points in crafting instead of some other skill, which make, as I already said, crafting potential skill option to all characters and not only to your dedicated craftsman, which make skill more universal and better balanced in my opinion. 

 

And crafting is added to game because people requested it during kickstarter campaign, which is reason why it made itself as stretch goal, which obligates Obsidian to offer such mechanic in PE.

 

PS. PE will have unlimited deep stash in inventory, which can accessed on resting places and cities, which I think are only places where you will have access to crafting places (forges, labs and hearts), meaning that crafting items will not eat your limited inventory space if you don't want.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Elerond

[JFSOCC]

At first I saw Durability and screamed NOOOOO!

but

turns out

false alarm.

Great update, totally dig it.

Got a question: Can we "experiment" to find crafting solutions we don't have the recipe for? Or can it only be done with the recipes?

[SerRodrik]

I have a weird affinity for crafting systems. I enjoyed crafting in Arcanum, and I almost always use at least some crafting in New Vegas, so I'm excited to see how it's implemented in Project Eternity.

[Gusmonkey]

• Forges – these blacksmithing locations can be used to make all of the equippable gear. From helmets to armor to boots, if you can wear it, then you can make it here.
  • Personally I'm not a fan of the 'if you can wear it you can make it' system. This will most likely become a gather-make-sell cycle that is all about making money. How often do you need to actually make stuff for your party? Does this mean finding armour and weapons on the path will be of less significance? Finding cool stuff is way more fun than waiting for your stats to go up so you can make the next level of item, imo.

• I think it would be more fun if general forging was just assumed to be a sort-of background thing, not an in-game activity, and that the real forging skill is in being able to do unique things, based on the story you create/take part in. Quest-based knowledge and materials that allow some specific items to be made or improved in a certain way, and even then not so that everyone in your party gets a copy!

Durability seems to be designed to make the forging aspect of the game useful on an ongoing basis. Personally I'd prefer if this was the only general purpose use of the forging skill, rather than making normal weapons and armour. It might be nice to give the forging skill the ability to make regular items better than they would be without the skill (better stats) - again, this would be an option to help do away with churning out endless iron daggers to sell.

Labs – these alchemical tables are used to make any enchantments, as well as all alchemical consumables like potions, scrolls or figurines (which let you summon a creature that will fight for you). If you want to improve your gear or brew a potion, you need to find one of these labs.

• Sounds good to me! I'd like to know if it's going to be a TES style 30-second potion system or a Witcher-style 10-minute system  - or something else.

Again, in general I'd like to see alchemy and enchanting done in a story-integrated way rather than just being able to make all the stuff that is available elsewhere, though for consumables it certainly makes sense to be able to do that as well.

Also, some method of alchemy/scroll/figurine-making on the road would be good - even if it's at some reduced effectiveness due to lack of some equipment available at more permanent stations.

Hearths – these cooking spots are used to make food and drink that can give you long-term benefits when you ingest them. Many rest areas will have hearths, so crafting of this sort can often be done “in the field”.

• A hearth sounds like something you should be able to make yourself on the road, rather than it having to be at the resting place already (isn't it just a campfire?). I also liked an earlier suggestion that Inns/Taverns should require patronage before allowing you to use their facilities.

[TheVanguard]

What I would really like to see, and what I think could really help this system out, is a way to track recipes you intend to craft.  Especially if there are dozens and dozens of recipes, it can be a real chore to find a dropped crafting item, sort through a million recipes because you can't remember if you needed 4 or 5 mithril nails (or something like that), and then checking your inventory to verify how many you have.

 

If there was a way to mark a specific recipe as "tracked" (or whatever term), and then it appears on a tab or something in one of the main menus that at a glance showed you that you have 4/5 mithril nails, 1/1 wooden boards, and 1/2 rubies would be a really handy way to keep track of the items I want to craft right now as opposed to the ones I craft at a heart/blacksmith/lab because I realize I have the materials anyway.

[drithius]

Ah, Tim, but can we build mechanized arachnids and tesla coils?

[Monte Carlo]

Easy. Options > Gameplay > Item Durability > On / Off

 

And I hate the term 'degenerate gameplay.' I will never be able to agree with Sawyer about it. The term suggests arrogance and hauteur towards the player. You know, the schmuck who paid real money for the game?

[Phanox]

What is the point of a moneysink anyway in a singleplayer game? You have perfect control on how much money the player should gain and what should be bought. It's not like all monsters respawn and you can farm them all night long, right?!? And even so, isn't that a player choice? If the main point of having to repair equipment is a moneysink, I think it's a rather weak point for this sort of game.

[Sacred_Path]

I love that, just when you ask yourself "where's Tim?", he comes back with a bang and much controversy/ drama.

[Ieo]

 

Here we go

 

It's both for the economy and to make Crafting a skill that has value on more than one party member. Typically, crafting-related skills can/should only be taken on one party member because the rules don't reward taking it on more than one. If you do, those points are essentially wasted. A durability system allows us to use individual Crafting skills to scale individual degradation rates. And yes, repair does become an economy sink because "static" items have a consumable aspect to them. A lot of players have a preference for finding, rather than buying, rare/unique items in the world (e.g. many people responded negatively to unique items in IWD2's stores), which can result in a lot of money accumulation in the late game. The stronghold will be a good money sink, but a lot of people may choose to not do much with the stronghold, so there's no guarantee it will be a sink.

 

 

Two points to that quote:

 

First, why should there be economy sinks in a single-player game? In MMOs, the minority raiders tend to have the most money because because they get access to the best shinies to sell, but while raiding they risk a lot more death and require expensive consumables and some "durability" stat, all of which serve as gold sinks to even out the player economy. The difference is that PE durability is going to favor players who skip as much combat as possible, so that other poster's suggestion that the intent is to balance the economy against combat-players who gain more loot might make sense. But I honestly do not understand why a single-player game must have economy sinks at all; if a player ends up spending the time farming gold and whatever, what exactly does that break?

 

Second, let me clarify what some of the other posters are saying in their discomfort with tying crafting to a durability mechanic: Under no circumstances do players enjoy being manipulated by an arbitrary mechanic in order to achieve normal gameplay.

 

There is no real choice involved in this durability stat as it stands, vendor repair aside, in terms of true resource management, because this doesn't apply to what spells to cast or combat strategy or anything like that besides "do I even want to get into combat in this hallway?" But this is not "encouragement" to try out crafting. I'm sorry, but when it comes to these types of systems, they should stand on their own merits. There are players who enjoy crafting and those who don't. There are those who like playing ranged archer characters and those who don't. There are players who prefer hacking everything to death as they go through an enemy stronghold and those who don't. Typically when we talk about these types of systems for which the definition of "fun" varies from player to player, we need options and thus choices. Unless vendor repair is quite inexpensive and the only inconvenience is finding a vendor NPC out in the wilds, crafting plus durability this way is not a choice.

 

It's a disappointing manipulation.

[End of the Road]

I'm sorry, but I really don't like this update, and I like Sawyer's explanation even less.

 

Why should there be a connection between a crafting skill and item durability? Your explanation (We are assuming that if you know how to make an item, you also know how to use and take care of it.) doesn't make any sense at all and is completely artificial. Why shouldn't a fighter who is not a master blacksmith be able to take care of his gear? By tying the crafting skill directly to item durability, you are not really giving any benefits to the players that take it, but rather punishing the ones who don't by forcing them to do boring backtracking to the village.

 

Penalty for not taking crafting skill should be not being able to craft, not something else and completely artificial. It's like saying that if you don't take lock-picking, not only are you unable to pick-locks, but you can't even use a key on a door, because well, if you don't know how a lock works, you shouldn't be able to operate it, right?

 

And as for the argument about having more people with crafting skill in one party, couldn't it be solved by simply designing only one or two such companions?

[iantis]

I've got to be honest, I don't think there's ever been a case where I found weapon durability / having to repair things to be a compelling gameplay mechanic.  Unless Project Eternity somehow turns it into an opportunity to make meaningful, interesting choices (which is what good gameplay is about), I think it will just turn into a chore, as it is in any other game.  

 

My first (or perhaps simply my most vivid) recollection of having to repair weapons was from Bethesda's "Oblivion," in which the player was constantly forced to fix their equipment.  What did this add to the enjoyment of the game, or to my strategy for playing?  Nothing.  It's simply a numerical stat list where if the numbers get low (weapon broken!) you have to do some repetitive activity to make them higher again (weapon fixed!).  Please reconsider whether this is worth including in your game.