Single class should be more statistically superior than multi

[asnjas]

Ok hear me out.

 

I think the standard thought is balance the two and try to make their numbers match. One doesn't out damage the other and so on.

 

But:

 

Multi class offers so many more options, playstyles and combinations. Multi allows you to combine so many more skills and spells for a huge variety of play styles. Even if mathematically a single class druid matches a druid/rogue in terms of damage, survivability etc that the variety and options multi classing offers count for something.

 

Also, multi classing offers much more regarding role playing than just simple damage and healing effectiveness. If I'm serious role player, multi class is guaranteed to closely match how I envision my char than single class. This is because combining two different classes can arrive at the combination of skills, spells and flavor that a player envisions. Single classing is much more limited.

 

I admit the less a person cares about role playing the more single class might suffice. But the more a person wants to create a personality and philosophy for their character then i definelty claim that multi will come much closer to the desired match. The more specifics a player adds to their character the more multi classes can come closer to the mark because of the variety and amount of skills.

 

In short, I think numbers and math are not the only thing to consider when it come to balance. Even if multi and single class are on even footing regarding damage, heal, penetration, recovery time etc, multi class still hold advantages over single class. Because of this, single class should receive some other things to make more desirable. A simple example might be subclasses only for single class selections. Unique histories and cultures for singles class. Video games are not only about math when they are labeled rpgs.

Edited August 11, 2018 by asnjas

[Sceptenar]

If I'm serious role player, multi class is guaranteed to closely match how I envision my char than single class.

 

Why would that be guaranteed? What if you envision a character that is simply a priest or wizard? I had no problem roleplaying my single class priest.

[Taevyr]

I admit the less a person cares about role playing the more single class might suffice. But the more a person wants to create a personality and philosophy for their character then i definelty claim that multi will come much closer to the desired match. The more specifics a player adds to their character the more multi classes can come closer to the mark because of the variety and amount of skills.

 

 

I'm more inclined to say the opposite: the more specific a character's beliefs, abilities and backstory gets, the less believable choices you have in class/multiclass selection. I have a hard time imagining my hunter from the colonial frontier in the Living Lands as anything other than a sharpshooter, lacking the training/endurance for devoted and the cunning/supposed fragility of an assassin, which would've been obvious choices otherwise.

 

From a min/maxing standpoint multiclass is mostly superior, if only because of the utility of classes like paladin and chanter. But RP-wise, it's can be just as much of a hindrance as a driver for multiclassing.

[1TTFFSSE]

dude have you tried a single class wizard or evoker or is that a "special case" single class? 

[poonjazzler]

dude have you tried a single class wizard or evoker or is that a "special case" single class? 

 

I have tried an invoker specced mage but I find it very unsatisfying playing with such limitations on spell casts. 2 spells per level of spell castings is no fun, especially on protracted fights

[ArenCordial]

I'm not sure subclasses would do anything unless the existing ones got benefits at certain levels and that goes against the design that the team clearly wanted of a subclass changing your gameplay from the moment you pick it.

Single class characters get two advantages.
1.)  They get higher level powers earlier (which is nice).
2.)  They get exclusive access to 8-9 tier powers (which is variable depending on your class).

The real issue to me is so many classes just have weak 8-9 tier powers that don't in anyway make up for the added versatility and power you can get from a multiclass.

Now Wizard gets some great powers but what about Paladin for example?  Sacred Immolation isn't exactly making a case for itself.  Or Cipher?  Haunting Chains a level 9 power delivers 2 debuffs that for 9x the Focus doesn't beat out Whispers of Treason a level 1 power. 

The only thing single classes really need is for the late tier powers to get some work done on them. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by ArenCordial

[rjshae]

Single-class characters should be able to shine during tough boss battles where their sharpened focus and higher level talents can bring the battle to a faster close. Likewise, multi-class characters can shine during more complex tactical engagements requiring diverse and plentiful abilities. As long as single class characters get a chance to rise to the top from time to time, that makes them worth playing.

[Somnium_Meum]

Well, single-class Wizard, Priest and Druid are already stronger than their multiclass variations

Monk is also very powerful single-class

[acbatchelor]

I'm not sure subclasses would do anything unless the existing ones got benefits at certain levels and that goes against the design that the team clearly wanted of a subclass changing your gameplay from the moment you pick it.

 

Single class characters get two advantages.

1.)  They get higher level powers earlier (which is nice).

2.)  They get exclusive access to 7-9 tier powers (which is variable depending on your class).

 

The real issue to me is so many classes just have weak 7-9 tier powers that don't in anyway make up for the added versatility and power you can get from a multiclass.

 

Now Wizard gets some great powers but what about Paladin for example?  Sacred Immolation isn't exactly making a case for itself.  Or Cipher?  Haunting Chains a level 9 power delivers 2 debuffs that for 9x the Focus doesn't beat out Whispers of Treason a level 1 power. 

 

The only thing single classes really need is for the late tier powers to get some work done on them. 

 

I agree with what you said except that single class gets exclusive access to 7 - 9 tier powers. Multiclass can reach tier 7 so single class only gets exclusive access to tiers 8 and 9.

[MaxQuest]

Single class should be more statistically superior than multi

Do disagree.

There are 11 single-class and 55 multi-class options.

Ideally I'd prefer choosing out of 66 variants. But if between SC and MC one has to be better than the other, I would rather choose from a larger pool (55 > 11).

[MarkTheDP]

I'm not sure subclasses would do anything unless the existing ones got benefits at certain levels and that goes against the design that the team clearly wanted of a subclass changing your gameplay from the moment you pick it.

 

Single class characters get two advantages.

1.)  They get higher level powers earlier (which is nice).

2.)  They get exclusive access to 7-9 tier powers (which is variable depending on your class).

 

The real issue to me is so many classes just have weak 7-9 tier powers that don't in anyway make up for the added versatility and power you can get from a multiclass.

 

Now Wizard gets some great powers but what about Paladin for example?  Sacred Immolation isn't exactly making a case for itself.  Or Cipher?  Haunting Chains a level 9 power delivers 2 debuffs that for 9x the Focus doesn't beat out Whispers of Treason a level 1 power. 

 

The only thing single classes really need is for the late tier powers to get some work done on them. 

 

Pretty much this (emphasis mine).

 

Single classes should have the major incentive of unlocking the high-tier spells and abilities, unfortunately most of them are pretty sub-par.  Wizards and priests are decent, but only decent.  I still found myself using the lower-tier abilities more often for those classes, and exclusively for every other class.

[Phyriel]

To OP. Don't you get access to 2 more tiers of abilities as single class? That's a crazy boon over multiclass. Most of these high end PL 8 and 9 abilities are not only very powerful but also flashy and satisfying, while multiclass is stuck using mid tier stuff over and over for most of the game single classes get to diversify their gameplay in shorter intervals. Imo this suffice.

[1TTFFSSE]

To OP. Don't you get access to 2 more tiers of abilities as single class? That's a crazy boon over multiclass. Most of these high end PL 8 and 9 abilities are not only very powerful but also flashy and satisfying, while multiclass is stuck using mid tier stuff over and over for most of the game single classes get to diversify their gameplay in shorter intervals. Imo this suffice.

Yeah the problem as cited is that those level 8-9 abilities are not created equal among classes.

 

Wizard lvl 8 but especially lvl 9 abilities are godtier quality

 

Monk, barbarian, priest lvl8-9 abilities are strong

 

Druid is "serviceable" until you see what a single class priest or omg a single class wizard can do

Rogue while not great is again serviceable at those levels

 

Chanter, Paladin, Fighter and Chanter are weak at lvl8-9 abilities especially the "active" abilities not the passives. 

[Teclis23]

Yeah alot of the power in the powerful multiclass builds is built in early. They kick but in the first 60% of the game but after that there power curve drops of very sharply

Edited August 13, 2018 by Teclis23

[hilfazer]

 

 

Single class should be more statistically superior than multi

 

Even more? But they are alot a lot. Statistics show about 70% of players pick single class.

[pi2repsion]

 

To OP. Don't you get access to 2 more tiers of abilities as single class? That's a crazy boon over multiclass. Most of these high end PL 8 and 9 abilities are not only very powerful but also flashy and satisfying, while multiclass is stuck using mid tier stuff over and over for most of the game single classes get to diversify their gameplay in shorter intervals. Imo this suffice.

Yeah the problem as cited is that those level 8-9 abilities are not created equal among classes.

 

Wizard lvl 8 but especially lvl 9 abilities are godtier quality

 

Monk, barbarian, priest lvl8-9 abilities are strong

 

Druid is "serviceable" until you see what a single class priest or omg a single class wizard can do

Rogue while not great is again serviceable at those levels

 

Chanter, Paladin, Fighter and Chanter are weak at lvl8-9 abilities especially the "active" abilities not the passives. 

 

Chanter level 8-9 abilities WEAK? I beg to differ.

 

Chants, you gain the dragonslayer chant - okay, strictly speaking the beastslayer chant - and you get the +1 penetration chant, both very powerful. (Though the first is extremely situational).

 

Invocations, you get the upgrade to the Eld Nary frost invocation taking it from 4 jump targets to 12, you get the upgrade to Braved the Horde alone that allows you to self energize for the longest time at half the phrase cost, you get the upgrade to Ancient Instruments and Swamp summons, you get the Dragon summon, you get the upgrade to the raw damage AOE that now also gives 25% action speed (and heals) nearby friends and there's the option of giving nearby friends +1 class resource if you really can't think of anything else. [EDIT: Okay, to be fair, you only get a selection of those and some of the other options depending on what you want to spend ability points, you don't get them all... I just mentioned those I consider most useful, though to be fair the +3 penetration invocation should probably have been in the list too.]

 

...And, of course, you get a higher Power Level than you would as multiclass (and can pick prestige for +1 as well).

 

Now, Chanter is a class that multiclasses well with just about anything because it has so many good tools both active and passive that whatever role you intend for the composite, a Chanter can well support it, but a singleclass chanter is also very, very powerful at high levels: Its level 8 and 9 abilities aren't weak.

Edited August 13, 2018 by pi2repsion

[Verde]

Some classes are better as multis (Rogues) some as single (Priests) and some great as both (Monks, Wizards). I think it's balanced pretty well honestly.

[asnjas]

Regarding flavor:

 

I would challenge the claim that single class can better capture the theme of a player's character. Adding even the smallest twist to a character begins to bring out multi classing options. The sheer amount of skills pl 7 and down offer so many ways represent your characters role play background. All but the most strict character themes are better covered by single class,like a mage that spent first 45 yrs of his life in a library type of strict.

 

Regarding high tier pl:

 

Sure, single characters get special 8 and 9 spells and skills. My point here is those 8 9 spells better be significantly stronger. I think if those high tier are balanced to meet the power of multi class then it isn't enough.

 

The variety, fun , flexibility and design interest all lean in favor of multi.for single class to be on par with multi in terms of numbers isn't enough.

 

I know people argue 8 and 9 spells are very strong and tbh I have not played all classes and seen how each multi combination compares with All single class. All I argue is that those high tier single class abilities ought to be stronger and not balanced with multi classes.

[Verde]

Rogues have one lvl 9 active skill. And its redundant. That def needs to change.

[gkathellar]

For the sake of argument, let's accept the premise that multiclass characters are intrinsically friendlier to roleplaying (it's an absolutely absurd premise, but let's accept it for the moment).

 

Shouldn't players be rewarded for roleplaying? Don't we want mechanical incentives to engage with the narrative and characters? It seems to me that the OP's premise leads to the exact opposite conclusion.

[colma86]

Chanter level 8-9 abilities WEAK? I beg to differ.

 

Chants, you gain the dragonslayer chant - okay, strictly speaking the beastslayer chant - and you get the +1 penetration chant, both very powerful. (Though the first is extremely situational).

 

Invocations, you get the upgrade to the Eld Nary frost invocation taking it from 4 jump targets to 12, you get the upgrade to Braved the Horde alone that allows you to self energize for the longest time at half the phrase cost, you get the upgrade to Ancient Instruments and Swamp summons, you get the Dragon summon, you get the upgrade to the raw damage AOE that now also gives 25% action speed (and heals) nearby friends and there's the option of giving nearby friends +1 class resource if you really can't think of anything else. [EDIT: Okay, to be fair, you only get a selection of those and some of the other options depending on what you want to spend ability points, you don't get them all... I just mentioned those I consider most useful, though to be fair the +3 penetration invocation should probably have been in the list too.]

 

...And, of course, you get a higher Power Level than you would as multiclass (and can pick prestige for +1 as well).

 

Now, Chanter is a class that multiclasses well with just about anything because it has so many good tools both active and passive that whatever role you intend for the composite, a Chanter can well support it, but a singleclass chanter is also very, very powerful at high levels: Its level 8 and 9 abilities aren't weak.

I dunno about weak, but unnecessary or superfluous would be a better description. Like others have said, getting the level 8-9 skills you’re on the victory lap of the game. Who cares if you can summon a dragon when there’s basically nothing left worthwhile to summon a dragon against. There’s nothing like (insert powerful enemy) to try and fight late game. May as well just keep spamming Killers Froze Stiff while half afk watching some Netflix and call it a day. (An exaggeration, but still)

 

That’s not at all specific to chanters. To me the biggest reason to multiclass is most builds are online and doing 90% of what you want in the 10-13 level range. Anything accessed higher than that has very little appeal as you’ve taken on and beaten most, if not all, challenges to get to that point. I don’t think single classes are all that weak otherwise.

 

The next 2 dlc pretty much need to be all level 18-20 content to change this imo. There needs to be content to make me say “damn, I need/want a dragon for this”.

[eschu101]

Its completely fine. If you buff stats for single classes Wizards will break the game. Single class wizard is really, really strong. Druids, priests, chanters and monks are okay.

Maybe fighter, paladin, ranger and rogue 8-9 skills need some love, but having Martial classes to profit from being Multi makes sense. 

[Taevyr]

Ranger 8-9 skills are fine in my opinion. Twinned shot and driving flight go together great, especially when using certain weapons like frostseeker or most unique blunderbusses. The active level 9 ability's lackluster, but stunning shot's perfect for locking enemies, especially since ranger is great at stacking accuracy. The companion could still use some work, I suppose.

[Dorftek]

What I feel martial singleclasses need is closer to a multiclassed resources. Resources is my biggest concern of singleclass martial classes and DoC BP makes it even worse. How much can a singleclass fighter do in one encounter? No way I'd ever play one as resource hungry as they are even on multiclasses, same goes for rogue and to a degree barbarian, barbarians high tier passives are so strong tho that the resource issue is less of an issue on them as a singleclass

[Elric Galad]

Martial multiclass get up to 18 ressources per battle vs 13 for single class.

Empower refill makes it even worse (28 vs 18 !!!).

I think it's OK that multiclass gets more ressources per battle (since their abilities have lower PL), but the current gap is too high.

 

For casters, I think PL makes more difference and they can ultemately use quite a lot of ability so the current system is more or less OK, except their early game which is a bit harsh.

 

Ciphers and chanters might have a good use for PL, but the fact that they gain actually equal or less of their own ressource than multiclass is a bit weird (since Martial/Cipher and Martial/Skald tend to generate more focus).

 

 

What I would suggest is the following :

 

 

Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Paladin, Chanter and Monk Single Class should receive +2 ressources for each combat.

Empower (and maybe Brillant Inspiration) shall provide twice the amount of ressources.

 

Wounds should be excluded from this since monk would already benefit from Mortifications.

 

 

Druid, Wizard and Priest Single Class should choose a cantrip at creation.

This cantrip should be one of their 1st level spell from the list. They would get 2 uses per combat for this spell (separate cast from other 1st level spell).

Wizard changing their grimoire would keep this spell, and casters won't be able to cast it with their normal 1st level pool unless they pick it as an ability.

 

This is basically an equivalent of PoE1 spell masteries. This is to give Single Level Casters a sort of small gimmicky unique advantage, since they don't really need buff, except for low levels.

 

 

Single Class Cipher should receive Biting Whip or Draining Whip at level 1 and should be able to pick the other at PL2.

Biting Whip should be buffed to +20% damages by the way.

 

Since Draining Whip is currently so much better, this is basically a +20% weapon damages for Single Class Ciphers.

This is to reduce the gap of focus generation and weapon damages between Single and Multiclass/Martial Ciphers. A Cipher/Martial would still come out on top in most cases, but the PL difference make up for that since Ciphers are casters.
This would also emphasizes that Cipher, even Single Class, should be Martial/Caster hybrids, not Poker/Caster.

Edited August 16, 2018 by Elric Galad