Update #40 - Multiclassing Part II

[Mygaffer]

Has there been any thought given to a single unique ability for each multiclass? Perhaps just a different spin one of the two core class's abilities. For instance a Ravager, monk/barbarian, would have a version of Swift Strikes called Rapid Assault (or whatever) that for X wounds enables frenzy for Y seconds with each strike dealing extra carnage damage to all enemies in range. Rapid Assault would only be available to ravagers, not pure monks and not pure barbarians.

 

Whether that specific ability makes sense or not I don't know, I merely use that to illustrate what I mean.

 

That single ability could be a good way to express character/theme through gameplay mechanics, as this one unique ability would help define what the class is about.

 

Just a thought.

 

I loved the video btw, keep up the great work.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Mygaffer

[Mygaffer]

Oh no, that leap... I love PoE for the classic wRPG feel but that leap is way too jRPG for my tastes. 

That leap is in POE though...

 

Looks like Dragon Leap to me.

[smjjames]

As for my character concept of a rogueish monk (monk/rogue or rogue/monk), the shadowdancer bit with the ability makes it a heck of a lot more ninja-like than the concept is, but it's still pretty dang cool.

 

I don't have a specific ratio in mind, so, I'd probably just wing it. Streetfighter subclass for rogue fits themeatically, not sure what monk subclass I'd use, if I do use one, maybe shattered pillar.

[Skie Nightfall]

Game and UI look really damn pretty! :3

Edited September 20, 2017 by Skie Nightfall

[floredon]

to find the number of total subclasses, isn't it just a composition of combinations? we have the original 11 choose 2 = 55. then compose 55 choose 2 to get 1485 total. enter this into google for example:

 

(11 choose 2) choose 2

Edited September 20, 2017 by floredon

[ShadySands]

You can't combine 2 subclasses of the same class and there are some paladin/priest subclasses combo restrictions so it's be less but still a lot

 

Edit - the 55 is the base class combos. There are 39 subclasses (unless I miscounted) on top of the original 11... so 50 class options total?

 

Edit2 - Can't be right since you must take a paladin order or a god if a priest so... 48?

 

Edit3 - 8 classes have 4 options (1 base + 3 subs), 2 have 5 (5 subs), 1 has 6 (1 base + 5 subs, damn wizards). And picking one locks that whole class group out and that's before restricted combos... I see why Josh gave up trying to figure it out in his head

Edited September 20, 2017 by ShadySands

[Aotrs Commander]

Aw.  I liked 3.x-stye multiclassing, I thought it was one of the very best ideas in the game.

 

That.

 

Said.

 

It is one of those ideas that also works better when you have a lot more stuff to play wth (i.e. compare 3.x and/or PF compared to PoE - it'd be unreasonable to expect the breadth of the former in the latter). It's never been as satisfyingly implemented in CRPG form. AD&D mutliclassing was - and is fine for this sort of purpose.

 

(In fact, the one and only time I ran an AD&D campaign (and not Rolemaster and before 3.0), I allowed pretty much any one (races restrictions be damned) multi or dual class if they wanted. Otherwise (in my group's experience), al most no-one played a human. Contrast with 3.x, where almost no-one plays a NON human! that extra feat and skills makes all the difference...!)

 

So, I'm perfectly okay with this.

 

As Josh sort of implied, 3.x-style mutliclassing works best for min-max/optimisers (like me[1]!)  I can see how a more robust, complex system by its very nature is a lot harder to balance, with a lot more traps or the uninitiatred (or just the more casual player).

 

Hell, I'm initimately familiar with the problem, I just recnetly released my tabletop starship rules after fourteen years of development, and in the end - because it is an open ended system where you basically make your own races and ships - I had to include a sort of "idiot's guide" to try and explain why you pick x over y. (As you might gather, it's a sort of system for keenies like muggins, the sort of person who will spend tens of hours faffinf with rules for 3.x and such...!)

 

 

 

 

 

[1]Spare a moment's a pity for my poor players, since I'm the primary DM..!

[Lephys]

I'm missing something on the change from power sources to this. Firstly, what function did separate power sources provide that simply basing things off of aggregate level didn't provide? Secondly, the new system will have a LvL 20 Wizard/Fighter at the ability-tier progression of a LvL 10 Wizard and LvL 10 Fighter, correct? But are the abilities scaled according to aggregate level? Like... if Minoletta's Magic Missiles adds +1 missile per 2 levels or whatever (I'm sorry I can't remember the specifics... I desperately need to play PoE more, especially before Deadfire comes out -- just roll with the example, please ), then the LvL 20 SpellBlade would still be able to cast Minoletta's Magic Missiles with +10 missiles?

 

I guess what I'm getting at is, you'll be at roughly half-tier in what abilities you have available, but you shouldn't be much weaker, per se, than a single-class person. If that's the case, then honestly, if there ends up being a problem with power viability of some multi-class combos, then Obsidian could actually just give them a wee ability power-scaling handicap. Like, 1.10 instead of 1.00, etc.

 

Feel free to correct anything I'm wrong about. I'm genuinely wondering about this, and apologize for my noobishness.

[draego]

I'm missing something on the change from power sources to this. Firstly, what function did separate power sources provide that simply basing things off of aggregate level didn't provide? Secondly, the new system will have a LvL 20 Wizard/Fighter at the ability-tier progression of a LvL 10 Wizard and LvL 10 Fighter, correct? But are the abilities scaled according to aggregate level? Like... if Minoletta's Magic Missiles adds +1 missile per 2 levels or whatever (I'm sorry I can't remember the specifics... I desperately need to play PoE more, especially before Deadfire comes out -- just roll with the example, please ), then the LvL 20 SpellBlade would still be able to cast Minoletta's Magic Missiles with +10 missiles?

 

I guess what I'm getting at is, you'll be at roughly half-tier in what abilities you have available, but you shouldn't be much weaker, per se, than a single-class person. If that's the case, then honestly, if there ends up being a problem with power viability of some multi-class combos, then Obsidian could actually just give them a wee ability power-scaling handicap. Like, 1.10 instead of 1.00, etc.

 

Feel free to correct anything I'm wrong about. I'm genuinely wondering about this, and apologize for my noobishness.

 

I dont think the ability progression is character level based like "Minoletta's Magic Missiles adds +1 missile per 2 levels". There is still a power level and i bet the missiles spells scales with the power level. so single class reaches power level 9 and multi reaches power level 7. So you will be able to pick all skills from both classes that correspond to power level 7 or below with a multi class  and if those abilities scale they will reach power level 7 with multi class (just two levels below a single class missiles). where a single class will reach 9 for both abilities choices and scaling power. So it not multi classes are 50% of single class. And on top of that you will be able to pick more abilities/spell with multiclasses so they will always have more abilities than single. Finally you dont have to alternate with the classes on what abilities you gets. so for fighter/wizard you can get 75% fighter abilities and 25% wizards. Well at least this is how i interpret the info so far with some speculation.

Edited September 20, 2017 by draego

[ruzen]

 Obsidian just dropped a bombshell and my Pollymorp+Scoundrel assassin got killed by it. Thanks, Obsidian you ruined the Divinity:OS2 for me.

[Lamppost in Winter]

[esyvjrt]

Nice, i like most of the update, that said:

-I really don't like the idea of having established abilities for multi-classes, would prefer to choose the class1 and class2 abilities at levels 4, 7, 10,13, 16,and 19

-Neither Paladins/Priest multi-class having subclasses limitations

-Isn't decay Rymrgand's portfolio? shouldn't Berath have something more directly related to death and life?

-I don't understand Eothas having Elemental spells

-Multi-classes names: i really like some, i dislike a few, and i would change most of them.

[blotter]

Neither Paladins/Priest multi-class having subclasses limitations

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but they've explicitly stated that Paladin/Priest multiclass combos will be restricted in terms of the subclasses that be can chosen and further listed exactly which ones you won't be able to select if you take a particular subclass. Do you mean that you don't like the way they've set it up?

 

Isn't decay Rymrgand's portfolio? shouldn't Berath have something more directly related to death and life?

 

Rymrgand's the god of entropy rather than decay per se. Berath is the god of death, mortality, and cycles, among other things. Even the decay-based magic of druids probably emphasizes ties to the natural order, wherein the remains of the fallen fuel the emergence of new life, so it would likely be a closer match for the process of life in death and death in life that Berath represents as opposed to the final collapse that Rymrgand brings.

 

I don't understand Eothas having Elemental spells

 

Agreed. This seems like a loose fit at best.

Edited September 20, 2017 by blotter

[esyvjrt]

 

 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here, but they've explicitly stated that Paladin/Priest multiclass combos will be restricted in terms of the subclasses that be can chosen and further listed exactly which ones you won't be able to select if you take a particular subclass. Do you mean that you don't like the way they've set it up?

 

I was expressing my displeasure with this decision

 

 

 

 

Rymrgand's the god of entropy rather than decay per se. Berath is the god of death, mortality, and cycles, among other things. Even the decay-based magic of druids probably emphasizes ties to the natural order, wherein the remains of the fallen fuel the emergence of new life, so it would likely be a closer match for the process of life in death and death in life that Berath represents as opposed to the final collapse that Rymrgand brings.

 

 

 

 

 

I meant decay is more related to Rymrgands portfolio than Beraths, but this is a value judgment and  there can be an explanation of why Berath is related for decay. Anyway i think that fits more naturally with Rymrgand:

Berath: Cycles, doorways, inevitability, mortality, death and life itself.

Rymrgand: Winter, famine, entropy, bad luck, plague, natural disasters .

[LordInsane]

I will admit that I find it odd that Wizard/Cipher is Hierophant and Wizard/Priest is Thaumaturge rather than the other way around - hierophant seems so very... priestly a term.

[Enoch]

This raises lots of questions about spellcasting classes. 

 

Fundamentally, we have a pretty good idea about how Wizards work-- they get to learn a few select spells innately, selected as a class ability, and add more of them by equipping a Grimoire with additional spells in it.  But I don't recall anything being said about Priests and Druids.  The "can learn"/"cannot learn"/"gain access to" language in the subclass descriptions and the ability tree layout in the video seem to suggest that they'll need to spend a class ability to unlock each individual spell.  Which would be massively more restrictive than was the case in Pillars 1.  Or does using a Class Ability on a Level X spell just get you one more per-encounter cast of any of the spells at that level?  (Which would be a similar structure to that in Pillars 1.)  And how would the "can learn [X-type] [other class] spells" characteristics interact with this-- would each spell require an Ability investment, or are the just added to the list of spells the PRI/DRU can access all the time?

 

I'm assuming that prohibited schools will only apply within that class (e.g., so a Conjurer/Magran Thaumaturge can use Priest abilities to cast Wizard Fire spells, even if they are Evocations), but the contrary wouldn't completely surprise me.  (Although it would likely make some multiclass combinations far less viable.)

 

And, of course, more info on spell schools will be of great importance in planning characters.  Ruling out spells entirely feels like a quite harsh penalty for specialization.  (I tend to prefer the Pathfinder approach where opposed-school spells consume more resources, but aren't wholly barred.)  This is particularly evident for Priests, who can't opt out of specialization.  Based wholly on surmise grounded in the school name, playing a Priest without Protection spells or Inspiration spells, in particular, sounds to me like the guts being cut out of the class.  Those poor Eothasians and Skaenites...

Edited September 21, 2017 by Enoch

[floredon]

You can't combine 2 subclasses of the same class and there are some paladin/priest subclasses combo restrictions so it's be less but still a lot

 

Edit - the 55 is the base class combos. There are 39 subclasses (unless I miscounted) on top of the original 11... so 50 class options total?

 

Edit2 - Can't be right since you must take a paladin order or a god if a priest so... 48?

 

Edit3 - 8 classes have 4 options (1 base + 3 subs), 2 have 5 (5 subs), 1 has 6 (1 base + 5 subs, damn wizards). And picking one locks that whole class group out and that's before restricted combos... I see why Josh gave up trying to figure it out in his head

Hmm, you're right it can't be represented as a simple composition of combinations, you would have to look at each of the 55 base classes separately and see exactly how they implement the subclass structure on top of that. It will be interesting to see how it turns out in the end.

[Osvir]

Oh I forgot. We also have race, subrace, and gender, how many combinations are that?

[Nail]

If Spellblade will have backstab with spells... I guess it's the way I'll play

[FlintlockJazz]

I like the change to more of a 2nd-edition style D&D multiclassing.  I was never a big fan of 3rd edition multiclassing anyway so maybe that is why?  Regardless, this feels more suited to the classes in Pillars and a lot less confusing.

[EbonyBetty]

 

That is all...

[Boeroer]

I think this decision will lead to less patches.

 

I really want to try a Shapeshifter/Shattered Pillar with Wildstrike Burn and Turning Wheel. >+100% burning lash on those claws/tusks/horns seems to be... awesomest? Also Lightning Strikes on top I guess...

[Karkarov]

So why do people keep saying "so I only get half the power of each class...."?

The chart is crystal clear.  You simply don't get every ability from both classes, and you can only reach power level 7, whereas a single class can get to power level 9.  I am just not seeing how anyone interprets that as "half the power".  Obsidian's desire to do something balanced and original seems like it is doomed to be foiled by munchkins who just wanted broken 3.5 D&D mechanics.... again.

I am just happy to see there is a melee focused cipher subclass.

Name wise, they are fine.

[nstgc]

Thanks for the update. Seems as if this multi-classing system is more structured. Can't say that I'm sad to see that. Of course most everything we've been shown makes me happy to be a backer.

[Boeroer]

So why do people keep saying "so I only get half the power of each class...."?

 

The chart is crystal clear.  You simply don't get every ability from both classes, and you can only reach power level 7, whereas a single class can get to power level 9.  I am just not seeing how anyone interprets that as "half the power".  Obsidian's desire to do something balanced and original seems like it is doomed to be foiled by munchkins who just wanted broken 3.5 D&D mechanics.... again.

 

I am just happy to see there is a melee focused cipher subclass.

 

Name wise, they are fine.

I think this one was a good decision. Better to take a step back and rethink than trying to fix a system that is way too complex to take out all pitfalls in a reasonable amount of time and that's too complicated so that even the own designers don't get it right.

 

I also can't see why you would only get half of the power. 7 out of 9 is not 50% - and also people tend to forget that certain synergies can be OP no matter the power level. Like if you could combine Soul Whip with Carnage and so on. The rogue is a good example in PoE 1 how high level abilites do nothing for your power.