Request: Non-binary player character

[Karkarov]

A lot of people play games to escape reality, seeing a non binary sex just makes me think of reality :D

While I am not sure I agree with the verbiage undeadlegacy used, I agree with the sentiment.

 

This speaks of someone wanting to force their real world issues and politics, in a fantasy RPG.  This is a fantasy RPG, it does not require real world gender politics, certainly not in the tokenist "just do it to appease my niche" way the OP is suggesting.

 

Like Fluffle said, if Obsidian is not going to make it a real issue in Eora, and dedicate actual writing/quests to exploring it, then just slapping it in there to appease some real world niche is not appropriate.  It would just cause most players who even notice it at character creation to go "huh?" and be taken out of the game.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Karkarov

[Doppelschwert]

What a time to be alive...

 

How would this be implemented? Everyone you meet is going to use the pronoun you look like at first, just like in the real world. So add conversations with your party members that change the pronoun they use for you?

 

Why does this post not have more likes?

From a logical point of view it makes no sense for NPCs to know what you identify as, so why would they magically use the pronoun you envision?

[Wormerine]

 

A lot of people play games to escape reality, seeing a non binary sex just makes me think of reality :D

While I am not sure I agree with the verbiage undeadlegacy used, I agree with the sentiment.

 

This speaks of someone wanting to force their real world issues and politics, in a fantasy RPG.  This is a fantasy RPG, it does not require real world gender politics, certainly not in the tokenist "just do it to appease my niche" way the OP is suggesting.

 

Like Fluffle said, if Obsidian is not going to make it a real issue in Eora, and dedicate actual writing/quests to exploring it, then just slapping it in there to appease some real world niche is not appropriate.  It would just cause most players who even notice it at character creation to go "huh?" and be taken out of the game.

 

Or you could just go with Saints Row 2 way and make "sex" a slider rather than multiple choice.

[injurai]

But how can be when computer is only 0's and 1's...

[Fluffle]

Or you could just go with Saints Row 2 way and make "sex" a slider rather than multiple choice.

That made me look it up.

 

[MortyTheGobbo]

While I hardly agree that the existence of non-binary people is political, the questions about implementation are valid. Ideally, people would simply accept the gender identity of the person they're speaking to/about, and that's that. But it doesn't work this way in the real world, much less in a fantastical world that resembles past ages of our world, and where the existence of a reincarnating soul is a scientifically-confirmed fact. Even when/if it does work that way, affirming your gender identity is still a few extra lines of dialogue. Would it look natural if NPCs simply recognized it on sight?

[Sakai]

While I hardly agree that the existence of non-binary people is political, the questions about implementation are valid. Ideally, people would simply accept the gender identity of the person they're speaking to/about, and that's that. But it doesn't work this way in the real world, much less in a fantastical world that resembles past ages of our world, and where the existence of a reincarnating soul is a scientifically-confirmed fact. Even when/if it does work that way, affirming your gender identity is still a few extra lines of dialogue. Would it look natural if NPCs simply recognized it on sight?

What is "gender identity" exactly? And why anyone needs accepting it, whatever it may be, when the male/female choice only refers to your genitals. 

[Fluffle]

What is "gender identity" exactly? And why anyone needs accepting it, whatever it may be, when the male/female choice only refers to your genitals.

 

Gender identity is not the same as sex. You can read about it here.

 

It's not the same as your sex.

 

As far as I understand it, to break it down very simple it works like this:

 

You can be born inside a man's body and also feel like a man. Or you are born inside a women's body and feel like a woman. In these cases you are cisgender. Your sex and your gender align.

 

But you can also be born in a man's body but not feel like a man (or feel like a woman in a man's body). Or you are born in a woman's body but you do not feel like a woman (or you feel like a man in a woman's body) . Then you would be transgender.

 

Furthermore there are people who reject the gender roles altogether, and they see themselves neither as woman nor as man INDEPENDENTLY from their body. Or they see themselves as both.

 

So again, sex is NOT THE SAME as gender identity.

 

Also, as I have previously pointed out, even the sex is NOT a binary option since intersex people do exist.

 

Remember, the game asks you for your sex, not your gender.

[Sakai]

 

What is "gender identity" exactly? And why anyone needs accepting it, whatever it may be, when the male/female choice only refers to your genitals.

 

Gender identity is not the same as sex. You can read about it here.

 

It's not the same as your sex.

 

As far as I understand it, to break it down very simple it works like this:

 

You can be born inside a man's body and also feel like a man. Or you are born inside a women's body and feel like a woman. In these cases you are cisgender. Your sex and your gender align.

 

But you can also be born in a man's body but not feel like a man (or feel like a woman in a man's body). Or you are born in a woman's body but you do not feel like a woman (or you feel like a man in a woman's body) . Then you would be transgender.

 

Furthermore there are people who reject the gender roles altogether, and they see themselves neither as woman nor as man INDEPENDENTLY from their body. Or they see themselves as both.

 

So again, sex is NOT THE SAME as gender identity.

 

Also, as I have previously pointed out, even the sex is NOT a binary option since intersex people do exist.

 

Remember, the game asks you for your sex, not your gender.

 

I know what gender dysphoria is. And that's not relevant to this discussion. Obviously, anyone who identifies as the opposite sex, will play as that sex in a game. Or at least i can't imagine why the wouldn't. What i don't understand is this gender roles thing. Since when gender roles became a thing? So much so that some people feel like they need to be called anything other than he/her. Maybe i missed something, but i always thought that he/her, again, mostly refers to your genitals, and is not in any way shape or form a comment about your "identity", whatever that identity may be. So why all the fuss about the "non-binary" stuff when there was no binary to begin with when it comes to who you are. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Sakai

[Karkarov]

So why all the fuss about the "non-binary" stuff when there was no binary to begin with when it comes to who you are.

I see you don't visit social media, the media in general, or any of the whack job insanely biased echo chamber blogs/fake news sites of the modern day.

 

My advice, be happy you don't know the answer to that question, and don't start visiting the sites or things I just mentioned.

[smjjames]

 

Or you could just go with Saints Row 2 way and make "sex" a slider rather than multiple choice.

That made me look it up.

 

 

 

Lol the asian one. And it doesn't do a meshing transformation, it just flips.

[Torm51]

 

 

Dumb thread. 

[MaxQuest]

Or you could just go with Saints Row 2 way and make "sex" a slider rather than multiple choice.

Now that's an unexpected and hilarious approach))

Couldn't help but think of:

[Katarack21]

To paraphrase Mr Plinkett - When a (game or) movie has to go out of it's way to appease every demographic and type of person possible, it just sucks.

I've *NEVER* ****ing understood why having the option of a clickbox somewhere for "none" under "gender" would somehow make the game suck. Or indeed effect your goddamned game in any ****ing way at all.

 

As far as I can tell it makes no ****ing difference.

[Katarack21]

 

 

What is "gender identity" exactly? And why anyone needs accepting it, whatever it may be, when the male/female choice only refers to your genitals.

 

Gender identity is not the same as sex. You can read about it here.

 

It's not the same as your sex.

 

As far as I understand it, to break it down very simple it works like this:

 

You can be born inside a man's body and also feel like a man. Or you are born inside a women's body and feel like a woman. In these cases you are cisgender. Your sex and your gender align.

 

But you can also be born in a man's body but not feel like a man (or feel like a woman in a man's body). Or you are born in a woman's body but you do not feel like a woman (or you feel like a man in a woman's body) . Then you would be transgender.

 

Furthermore there are people who reject the gender roles altogether, and they see themselves neither as woman nor as man INDEPENDENTLY from their body. Or they see themselves as both.

 

So again, sex is NOT THE SAME as gender identity.

 

Also, as I have previously pointed out, even the sex is NOT a binary option since intersex people do exist.

 

Remember, the game asks you for your sex, not your gender.

 

I know what gender dysphoria is. And that's not relevant to this discussion. Obviously, anyone who identifies as the opposite sex, will play as that sex in a game. Or at least i can't imagine why the wouldn't. What i don't understand is this gender roles thing. Since when gender roles became a thing? So much so that some people feel like they need to be called anything other than he/her. Maybe i missed something, but i always thought that he/her, again, mostly refers to your genitals, and is not in any way shape or form a comment about your "identity", whatever that identity may be. So why all the fuss about the "non-binary" stuff when there was no binary to begin with when it comes to who you are. 

 

He/her are gender pronouns, not sex pronouns. That's literally the linguistic term, "gender pronouns". There is no such thing as a sex pronoun in English. If somebody has a vagina and you call them her but they happen to be a man, it's a problem. That's *the* problem. You're assuming that this person is a "her" but they are not; they are a "him". And many people don't feel like a he or a her; they don't feel like any gender.

 

This isn't "new" by the way. People have felt this way for *thousands* of years; literally for as long as human beings have existed. You can read diary entries about it, and there's rare few people that were public about it even in 1734, people discuss this in ancient Rome, etc. but in general it was more rare in the recent past of the Western world because 1) It was generally illegal in the western world and often punishable by death and 2) It was also considered a mental illness and you'd be thrown in a brick room and tortured until you stopped saying those crazy things.

[Baltic]

It's worth noting that the historical accounts of non-binary genders tend to be either transgender people, people who did activities outside of that society's gender role or gay people. Generally not the same as an actual third gender.

[Fluffle]

 

 

 

What is "gender identity" exactly? And why anyone needs accepting it, whatever it may be, when the male/female choice only refers to your genitals.

 

Gender identity is not the same as sex. You can read about it here.

 

It's not the same as your sex.

 

As far as I understand it, to break it down very simple it works like this:

 

You can be born inside a man's body and also feel like a man. Or you are born inside a women's body and feel like a woman. In these cases you are cisgender. Your sex and your gender align.

 

But you can also be born in a man's body but not feel like a man (or feel like a woman in a man's body). Or you are born in a woman's body but you do not feel like a woman (or you feel like a man in a woman's body) . Then you would be transgender.

 

Furthermore there are people who reject the gender roles altogether, and they see themselves neither as woman nor as man INDEPENDENTLY from their body. Or they see themselves as both.

 

So again, sex is NOT THE SAME as gender identity.

 

Also, as I have previously pointed out, even the sex is NOT a binary option since intersex people do exist.

 

Remember, the game asks you for your sex, not your gender.

 

I know what gender dysphoria is. And that's not relevant to this discussion. Obviously, anyone who identifies as the opposite sex, will play as that sex in a game. Or at least i can't imagine why the wouldn't. What i don't understand is this gender roles thing. Since when gender roles became a thing? So much so that some people feel like they need to be called anything other than he/her. Maybe i missed something, but i always thought that he/her, again, mostly refers to your genitals, and is not in any way shape or form a comment about your "identity", whatever that identity may be. So why all the fuss about the "non-binary" stuff when there was no binary to begin with when it comes to who you are. 

 

He/her are gender pronouns, not sex pronouns. That's literally the linguistic term, "gender pronouns". There is no such thing as a sex pronoun in English. If somebody has a vagina and you call them her but they happen to be a man, it's a problem. That's *the* problem. You're assuming that this person is a "her" but they are not; they are a "him". And many people don't feel like a he or a her; they don't feel like any gender.

 

This isn't "new" by the way. People have felt this way for *thousands* of years; literally for as long as human beings have existed. You can read diary entries about it, and there's rare few people that were public about it even in 1734, people discuss this in ancient Rome, etc. but in general it was more rare in the recent past of the Western world because 1) It was generally illegal in the western world and often punishable by death and 2) It was also considered a mental illness and you'd be thrown in a brick room and tortured until you stopped saying those crazy things.

 

 

And that is why I said the developers should first define how the cultures and societies of Eora handle the topic of being transgender.

 

What if it's illegal or punishable by death too? I doubt that seriously but do we know?

 

What we are doing here is we discuss how this topic is handled and was handled in our world. And we simply infer that then in Eora it should be like so and so because in our world it's so and so.

 

And that is exactly what I dislike. The people of Eora do not have to abide by the same rules and standards as we here on Earth. Yes, even DESPITE the fact that all the ideas from the games were inspired by our world. That does not mean that the citizen of Eora MUST treat the topic of being transgender the very same way as we do in the present or did in the past.

 

It is up to the developers alone to explore this topic in their game world if they so wish.

 

And if you now simply put that option in the game - nevermind that the game asks for your sex and NOT your gender - then you say that the citizen of Eora just know by magic that you would like to be addressed as "they" and they happily comply without asking any questions about it.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Fluffle

[Fluffle]

Now let's take a look at this, this might give an insight how people in the Vailian Republics treat people who are "different". Of course the Vailian Republics is just one part of Eora, and may not speak for the whole of it.
 

 
To my opinion that speaks VOLUMES. Now, the question is, do people who have a male body but insist they are a woman and vice versa count as " being different"?
People who expect other people to magically know that they would prefer to be referred to as "they"?
Does that qualify as "being different"?
 
Then the above might give a hint on how people in the Vailian Republics could react on that.
 
Pallegina is by law regarded as neither woman nor man in the Vailian Republics. So there, you have it, your third non-binary option in the Vailian Republics.
Pallegina tells you how people like her are treated.
 
Also have a look at this post by Josh Sawyer:

Edited August 22, 2017 by Fluffle

[dragubaba]

I'm beginning to think OP just might have been a rather skillful troll. Something about the "millions" when in reality it's handful of urban teenagers who manage to create a problem from any of this. Or maybe I'm just fallen really behind from all this social advancement. I'm fine with two genders to state the obvious.

[Gfted1]

Has trolling taken on a new meaning? I know its reeled out constantly to try to shut down discussions but are posters really trying to find the OP offensive? Wow.

[ThatUndeadLegacy]

 

To paraphrase Mr Plinkett - When a (game or) movie has to go out of it's way to appease every demographic and type of person possible, it just sucks.

I've *NEVER* ****ing understood why having the option of a clickbox somewhere for "none" under "gender" would somehow make the game suck. Or indeed effect your goddamned game in any ****ing way at all.

 

As far as I can tell it makes no ****ing difference.

 

he didn't mean the game just sucks and he never said it like that, 

Edited August 22, 2017 by ThatUndeadLegacy

[Gromnir]

didn't read the thread following the genesis post.  the only reason we clicked were 'cause we wondered, "wth is a non-binary player character?"

 

...

 

our imagination provide us with more interesting options than the reality.

 

le sigh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[dragubaba]

Has trolling taken on a new meaning? I know its reeled out constantly to try to shut down discussions but are posters really trying to find the OP offensive? Wow.

Heh, no I think the offended ones are usually found in the non-binary camp. But I would imagine members of more traditional societies tends to get pissy about this subject as well. Personally I don't care as long as inclusion of somewhat trivial stuff like this isn't detrimental to other aspect of the game.

[Katarack21]

It's worth noting that the historical accounts of non-binary genders tend to be either transgender people, people who did activities outside of that society's gender role or gay people. Generally not the same as an actual third gender.

That's not accurate at *all*.

 

Hijras have a long and ancient tradition as neither masculine nor feminine; sometimes both, but just as often neither, and in the modern world are explicitly legally recognized as a third gender. In Native American tribes, not all tribes had strict gender roles--Navajo had four genders, feminine woman (asdzaan), masculine man (hastiin), feminine man (nádleehí) masculine woman (dilbaa). All considered quite distinct from each other. The Cree in Canada had a term, "ayahkwêw", which was specifically a third gender.

[Baltic]

 

It's worth noting that the historical accounts of non-binary genders tend to be either transgender people, people who did activities outside of that society's gender role or gay people. Generally not the same as an actual third gender.

 

That's not accurate at *all*.Hijras have a long and ancient tradition as neither masculine nor feminine; sometimes both, but just as often neither, and in the modern world are explicitly legally recognized as a third gender. In Native American tribes, not all tribes had strict gender roles--Navajo had four genders, feminine woman (asdzaan), masculine man (hastiin), feminine man (nádleehí) masculine woman (dilbaa). All considered quite distinct from each other. The Cree in Canada had a term, "ayahkwêw", which was specifically a third gender.

Hence the word 'tend'.