Guard Dog Posted August 3, 2017 Posted August 3, 2017 How do you guys feel about vaccinations? Don't leave home without them. If someone want's to "opt out" then let them. But if they want their kids to attend public schools, etc. then roll up their sleeve. Look, there is no bigger champion of liberty here than me but even I will tell you it isn't and can't be absolute as long as you're planning on living around the other humans. One of the little sacrifices you have to be expected to make is to not spread infectious diseases that can wipe out entire populations. If the thing you are doing is likely to harm only you, not wearing a seatbelt for example, then leave them to their folly. But if you want to go "off the grid" and live on a mountain somewhere and make your own whiskey and dress in goatskins then ok, we can dispense with the measles vaccine. how do you differentiate social costs o' the vaccinations from those o' failure to wear seatbelts? your fellow americans, through democratic elected representatives, has recognized just how expensive it is to allow numbnutz drivers to use motor vehicles sans safetybelts. is costs to have emergency medical people to rush out and try and scrape you off pavement or separate you from a tree. is emergency room costs, which are exorbitant. is costs for long term care and/or support for your highly likely permanent disabilities. there is costs. even if you thinks such costs don't merit Government interference, american adherence to principles o' democracy makes it perfect legal and reasonable for your neighbors to object to and sanction dumb and/or costly behavior by fellow citizens. force you to wear seatbelts is indeed The Government demanding you to suppress liberty. is a representative democracy, so the Government is your neighbors, not some kinda monolithic freedom suppressing machine. you wanna live in America? fine, then you gotta live by certain rules your fellow americans 'gree 'pon. sure, the Constitution sets aside particular freedoms which is believed too important to leave to the whim o' democracy, but the rest is fair game. similar, gd cannot drive a car which produces too much pollution. why? 'cause the costs to your fellow americans has been deemed too expensive and as long as your fellow americans got a rational basis for enacting a prohibition on excessive polluting cars, you will not be allowed to drive an excessive polluting car. is basic social contract suff, no? vaccinations, seat belts, smoking in restaurants, dog waste removal, whatever. if The People agree your behavior has too great a cost, you may be prohibited from enjoying such a behavior... with the exception o' Constitutional protections. *shrug* democracy isn't 'bout liberty and peace and enlightened western culture. democracy, the Government, the People, is a community's necessary collective will to limit your liberties. democracy is opposite o' liberty. seatbelts? safety belts? am not seeing such mentioned in the Constitution, direct or indirect. religious freedom claim? due process claim? equal protection? sure, the fed powers is limited, but state and local can, and do, have the power to limit all kinda socially costly behaviors. thank goodness. you not like a particular prohibition? go out and get the law creating the prohibition changed. is how democracy works. honestly. libertarians can be as silly as the far left and alt right folks. is kinda reassuring actually. nobody gots a monopoly on good sense. vaccinations... am not gonna go into vaccinations save for two observations: 1) there is constitutional issues regarding compulsory medical treatments, so is actual more complex than seatbelts in cars, and 2) people who claim a reasonable basis for forgoing the vaccination o' their children is dumber than a bag full o' rocks. HA! Good Fun! You know... I don't recall mentioning the constitution, or democracy, or anything like that in any post on this subject. That's probably because we discussing general philosophy of interference rather than who can specifically keep you from doing what. And one of the things you hit on: the reason we have so much stupidity is because the costs of stupidity are so seldom borne by the stupid. But anyway. For neigh on 14 years now I've been coming to this board (and others) arguing a philosophical viewpoint. I doubt I've made many converts, which was never the intention anyway, but I daresay I've conceived more than a few people to at least think about things from a different perspective. My target audience here (and elsewhere) is not legislators, it's citizens. Who go and vote. And there was the added benefit of enjoyable conversations and spirited discussions along the way. Just sayin. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Gromnir Posted August 3, 2017 Posted August 3, 2017 (edited) How do you guys feel about vaccinations? Don't leave home without them. If someone want's to "opt out" then let them. But if they want their kids to attend public schools, etc. then roll up their sleeve. Look, there is no bigger champion of liberty here than me but even I will tell you it isn't and can't be absolute as long as you're planning on living around the other humans. One of the little sacrifices you have to be expected to make is to not spread infectious diseases that can wipe out entire populations. If the thing you are doing is likely to harm only you, not wearing a seatbelt for example, then leave them to their folly. But if you want to go "off the grid" and live on a mountain somewhere and make your own whiskey and dress in goatskins then ok, we can dispense with the measles vaccine. how do you differentiate social costs o' the vaccinations from those o' failure to wear seatbelts? your fellow americans, through democratic elected representatives, has recognized just how expensive it is to allow numbnutz drivers to use motor vehicles sans safetybelts. is costs to have emergency medical people to rush out and try and scrape you off pavement or separate you from a tree. is emergency room costs, which are exorbitant. is costs for long term care and/or support for your highly likely permanent disabilities. there is costs. even if you thinks such costs don't merit Government interference, american adherence to principles o' democracy makes it perfect legal and reasonable for your neighbors to object to and sanction dumb and/or costly behavior by fellow citizens. force you to wear seatbelts is indeed The Government demanding you to suppress liberty. is a representative democracy, so the Government is your neighbors, not some kinda monolithic freedom suppressing machine. you wanna live in America? fine, then you gotta live by certain rules your fellow americans 'gree 'pon. sure, the Constitution sets aside particular freedoms which is believed too important to leave to the whim o' democracy, but the rest is fair game. similar, gd cannot drive a car which produces too much pollution. why? 'cause the costs to your fellow americans has been deemed too expensive and as long as your fellow americans got a rational basis for enacting a prohibition on excessive polluting cars, you will not be allowed to drive an excessive polluting car. is basic social contract suff, no? vaccinations, seat belts, smoking in restaurants, dog waste removal, whatever. if The People agree your behavior has too great a cost, you may be prohibited from enjoying such a behavior... with the exception o' Constitutional protections. *shrug* democracy isn't 'bout liberty and peace and enlightened western culture. democracy, the Government, the People, is a community's necessary collective will to limit your liberties. democracy is opposite o' liberty. seatbelts? safety belts? am not seeing such mentioned in the Constitution, direct or indirect. religious freedom claim? due process claim? equal protection? sure, the fed powers is limited, but state and local can, and do, have the power to limit all kinda socially costly behaviors. thank goodness. you not like a particular prohibition? go out and get the law creating the prohibition changed. is how democracy works. honestly. libertarians can be as silly as the far left and alt right folks. is kinda reassuring actually. nobody gots a monopoly on good sense. vaccinations... am not gonna go into vaccinations save for two observations: 1) there is constitutional issues regarding compulsory medical treatments, so is actual more complex than seatbelts in cars, and 2) people who claim a reasonable basis for forgoing the vaccination o' their children is dumber than a bag full o' rocks. HA! Good Fun! You know... I don't recall mentioning the constitution, or democracy, or anything like that in any post on this subject. That's probably because we discussing general philosophy of interference rather than who can specifically keep you from doing what. And one of the things you hit on: the reason we have so much stupidity is because the costs of stupidity are so seldom borne by the stupid. But anyway. For neigh on 14 years now I've been coming to this board (and others) arguing a philosophical viewpoint. I doubt I've made many converts, which was never the intention anyway, but I daresay I've conceived more than a few people to at least think about things from a different perspective. My target audience here (and elsewhere) is not legislators, it's citizens. Who go and vote. And there was the added benefit of enjoyable conversations and spirited discussions along the way. Just sayin. you not mentioning hardly precludes Gromnir identifying the process and rationale behind such prohibitions. vaccinations= good. seat belts = bad. government shouldn't mess with gd seatbelts. we responded by noting who The Government is, and why seat belts and vaccinations got similar rationale for legitimized prohibition by The Government. for many folks, liberty and democracy is wrapped up in the same flag as if the two is essential qualities o' some larger whole. nonsense. democracy is a process by which liberties is limited or removed. can't reasonable discuss american liberty w/o observing impact and value o' democracy. oh, and the stoopid can rare afford to fully pay for their stoopidity. bob's stoopidity leads to a measles outbreak and chances are he will be unable to pay for all costs involved. wendy gets in a car accident and becomes permanent disabled and chances are wendy ain't gonna be able to pay even a fraction o' the costs involved. is why we speak o' social costs as 'posed to personal. your neighbors, the government, gets tired o' paying for stoopidity and decides there needs be a prohibition on such behavior. am personal 'gainst the federal government becoming so involved in prohibiting stoopid behavior. ideally, such restrictions o' liberty is 'posed to occur at a level o' democracy much closer to the individual whose liberty is being limited. local and state is the folks who should be the enforcers o' prohibitions and the guardians o' liberties. gd should have a reasonable chance to personal fight legislations and ordinances with which he do not agree. one man can make a difference at local levels. sadly, that proverbial ship sailed a long time ago. regardless, gd mentioned what the "government" could and should do 'bout his perceived liberties. failure by Gromnir to mention democracy, the people and the constitution in a reply to such a post woulda' been... stoopid. HA! Good Fun! Edited August 3, 2017 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Guard Dog Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 failure by Gromnir to mention democracy, the people and the constitution in a reply to such a post woulda' been... stoopid. HA! Good Fun! touché "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Volourn Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 All Grom's point of the 'gov't is your neighbours' is that most people are Nazis at heart. Most people when push comes to shove only believe in freedom when it is CONVENIENT. That doesn't change the fact that the seatbelt law is a Nazi law. PERIOD. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.
Bartimaeus Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) We are all Nazis on this blessed day. Edited August 4, 2017 by Bartimaeus Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance.
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 We are all Nazis on this blessed day. Obsidian Uber Alles. "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "you're a damned filthy lying robot and you deserve to die and burn in hell." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "I love cheese despite the pain and carnage." - ShadySands
Gromnir Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 Most people when push comes to shove only believe in freedom when it is CONVENIENT. this is the reason we got the Constitution and Bill of Rights n' such. democracy is a weak protection 'gainst the violation o' liberty. the mob is petty and vengeful and often stoopid. in their wisdom, the founding fathers recognized the need for protection from democracy. converse, only a gibbering lunatic or bootless hermit would wanna live in a civilization wherein liberty is absolute. after all, when push comes to shove, most people only care about Vol (or any other random person) when it is convenient. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Zoraptor Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 Unfortunately to really get rid of most Petty laws, I would say u would have to get rid or or severely limit what can be sued for. You can't sue here for much at all since we have a 'no fault' accident compensation scheme that covers most situations but that just encourages more regulation since the government has to shell out for, eg, car crash injuries caused by people not wearing seat belts. Seat belts are fine though, it's a matter of safety for everyone involved same as someone who is blind not being allowed to drive or not being allowed to drive when drunk. If people want to make stupid decisions that effect themselves only then fine, if they want to make dumb decisions that effect others then there's an argument to limit their freedom to be dumb based on the negative effects on others.
Hurlshort Posted August 4, 2017 Posted August 4, 2017 That really isn't how the system works, or at least is not supposed to work. The government is not supposed to have the power to make things legal or illegal on a whim. You have ballot measures and representatives of the people that are supposed to make those decisions. Now you can argue that there are too many interefering factors at play (lobbyists, courts, etc.) But pot is hardly becoming legal on a whim. It has been a slow climb through local and state legislation to get anywhere near being legal, and it still has to overcome federal hurdles. It is an interesting change to watch, probably the most fascinating shift since prohibition. 1
Raithe Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 So, with Kayleigh McEnany doing Trump News, and Donald's name splashed across the wall behind her as she gives that "this is the real news"... is this what's going to replace the White House daily press briefing? "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
redneckdevil Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 So, with Kayleigh McEnany doing Trump News, and Donald's name splashed across the wall behind her as she gives that "this is the real news"... is this what's going to replace the White House daily press briefing? Sigh, from one extreme media to another
Malcador Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 So, with Kayleigh McEnany doing Trump News, and Donald's name splashed across the wall behind her as she gives that "this is the real news"... is this what's going to replace the White House daily press briefing? Her dogged defense of all things Trump on CNN was funny. But I guess she's gotta do something to get paid Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Wrath of Dagon Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 The GULAG archipelago. "Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan
injurai Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 Look at those low Trump numbers in Michigan, and Clinton just snubbed that entire state. I'm really going to have to read her book.
ShadySands Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 Sittin on the dock of the (Denver) bay Free games updated 3/4/21
Agiel Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) Number of Americans living in towns of under 25,000 is about 30 million, equivalent to 10% of the US population and the combined total population of metropolitan New York and Philadelphia. Now should there be more discourse between those segments of the population? Absolutely, but all this nonsense about the "metro-elite bubble" sounds to me like fetishising a way of life that's been atypical since the 1930's. Edited August 7, 2017 by Agiel Quote “Political philosophers have often pointed out that in wartime, the citizen, the male citizen at least, loses one of his most basic rights, his right to life; and this has been true ever since the French Revolution and the invention of conscription, now an almost universally accepted principle. But these same philosophers have rarely noted that the citizen in question simultaneously loses another right, one just as basic and perhaps even more vital for his conception of himself as a civilized human being: the right not to kill.” -Jonathan Littell <<Les Bienveillantes>> Quote "The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete. But so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, entity, or ideology becomes obsolete when it stockpiles the wrong weapons: when it captures territories, but not minds; when it enslaves millions, but convinces nobody. When it is naked, yet puts on armor and calls it faith, while in the Eyes of God it has no faith at all. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete." -Rod Serling
redneckdevil Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 That's about the population of our top 25 cities. New York is only 8ish million and next is 3ish million.
HoonDing Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 Hillbillies vote Republican, news at 11 The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Agiel Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) That's about the population of our top 25 cities. New York is only 8ish million and next is 3ish million. It would also include the number of people who live in surrounding suburbs since while the majority of Americans work in cities real estate actually within them is restrictively expensive. Those living in suburbs surrounding the big cities are usually of the white collar professional class (dad works 9-5 cubicle farm job commuting to the city, mom is homeowner who takes kids to soccer games in SUV, or as is increasingly the case working herself, and kids with aspirations for university or a professional job). Edited August 7, 2017 by Agiel Quote “Political philosophers have often pointed out that in wartime, the citizen, the male citizen at least, loses one of his most basic rights, his right to life; and this has been true ever since the French Revolution and the invention of conscription, now an almost universally accepted principle. But these same philosophers have rarely noted that the citizen in question simultaneously loses another right, one just as basic and perhaps even more vital for his conception of himself as a civilized human being: the right not to kill.” -Jonathan Littell <<Les Bienveillantes>> Quote "The chancellor, the late chancellor, was only partly correct. He was obsolete. But so is the State, the entity he worshipped. Any state, entity, or ideology becomes obsolete when it stockpiles the wrong weapons: when it captures territories, but not minds; when it enslaves millions, but convinces nobody. When it is naked, yet puts on armor and calls it faith, while in the Eyes of God it has no faith at all. Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of Man...that state is obsolete." -Rod Serling
redneckdevil Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 Hillbillies vote Republican, news at 11 Fake news, I voted Johnson 2
Gromnir Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 nice maps. if dirt and rocks could vote, then perhaps trump woulda' managed to win the popular vote. unfortunately, more o' the people in the US live in urban areas than in the desert south o' salt lake city, or in the appalachians or the rockies... or michigan . go figure. Hillbillies vote Republican, news at 11 watched ozark and learned hillbilly is a pejorative for redneck. who knew? HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
smjjames Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 -image snip- The GULAG archipelago. That's certainly an interesting way of visualizing it. Though it only goes by percentage of votes, not number of votes. If 1 mil equals 1,000 feet, New York City would tower over Mount Everest. Though you'd lose the fine details on that scale, perhaps if 250,000 equals 1,000 feet. *shrug*
redneckdevil Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 (edited) nice maps. if dirt and rocks could vote, then perhaps trump woulda' managed to win the popular vote. unfortunately, more o' the people in the US live in urban areas than in the desert south o' salt lake city, or in the appalachians or the rockies... or michigan . go figure. Hillbillies vote Republican, news at 11watched ozark and learned hillbilly is a pejorative for redneck. who knew? HA! Good Fun! Bah, people who use it in a derogative way hasn't sat down at the table and break bread with a family of hillbillies. So far the only place I've seen southern hospitality is up in those beautiful mountains. Edited August 7, 2017 by redneckdevil
Gromnir Posted August 7, 2017 Posted August 7, 2017 got little experience with the south. in the late 80s we did a kinda tour o' the US while on our football recruiting visits. the overt racism shocked us. sure, we had experienced racism in the dakotas and when we lived in chicago, but the south were... different. southern racial bigotry were kinda a smouldering, ubiquitous and accepted part o' daily life. shocked us a bit. have been back to the south (not often) in more recent years, but have never been able to shake our earliest impressions that the south ain't no place for an oglala and catholic kid with a big mouth and a chip on his shoulder. in the 80s, southern hospitality woulda' had us, best case scenario, beaten senseless and left for dead in a roadside ditch outside o' nashville or gainesville. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
213374U Posted August 8, 2017 Posted August 8, 2017 Full manifesto Not "full" actually, because Gizmodo amputated links and charts from the document. another link Guy's been fired, btw. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.
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