Josh Sawyer's tweets and teasers

[smjjames]

 

I know Ydwin can be one, and I thought Eder could possibly choose rogue?

That's correct.  Eder can be a fighter or a rogue (which still makes no sense to me).  Ydwin can be a cipher or a rogue.

 

 

I recall something about that in PoE1, they initially wanted him to be a rogue, but decided that didn't really fit his storyline/background. Might be a bit of a callback to that, give the option for him.

[Gromnir]

 

 

I know Ydwin can be one, and I thought Eder could possibly choose rogue?

That's correct.  Eder can be a fighter or a rogue (which still makes no sense to me).  Ydwin can be a cipher or a rogue.

 

 

I recall something about that in PoE1, they initially wanted him to be a rogue, but decided that didn't really fit his storyline/background. Might be a bit of a callback to that, give the option for him.

 

had nothing to do with the story.  were a recognition regarding poe gameplay and the desirability o' an early and obvious tank.  edér is fine as a rogue.

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65025-update-71-the-heavy-hitters-rogues-and-rangers/page-1

 

 

"Resident heavy-hitting rogue, Edér."

 

"In Pillars of Eternity, the designation of a character as a "rogue" signifies their vicious, brutal style of fighting, not a propensity for theft or deception. More than any other class, rogues exemplify the adage that the best defense is a good offense. If fighters are the disciplined, reliable, well-trained units that hold the line, rogues are the shock troops that attempt to break through that line to take out vulnerable units before they can effectively retaliate. When pinned down, rogues can suffer from their weak defenses, but ideally they carry their momentum from one target to the next in short order."

 

mechanics boost for rogues were not a lockpicking thing so much as it were explained as a battlefield soldier's requisite knowledge o' boobytraps.  

 

now maybe you believe obsidian did a bad job making in-game rogues match their vision.  maybe you can't shake previous rogue nomenclature from literal dozens o' previous games.  whatever.  regardless, edér switch to fighter were not a function o' story, 'cause from obsidian pov, edér made perfect sense as a rogue.  

 

...

 

now ydwin as an obsidian rogue is a bit o' a head scratcher, but they also got the anime-inspired goth girl in a mini-skirt and entering melee combat with fragile little spectacles, so am thinking we throw rational out the window and just kinda accept how she is a kinda pandering sidekick meant to satisfy a small but vocal preference exhibited 'mongst the fanbase. am guessing obsidian coulda' made ydwin half-feline as the result o' her experimentation if they wanted to go extreme over-the-top, but perhaps such wackiness were too much for the developers to indulge. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Karkarov]

Do we need to break out all his art, where he is always wielding a long sword or sabre, always wearing chain or scale, and always using a shield?  The original concept art before his name was finalized was blatantly that of a fighter/tank character.

 

Meanwhile, there was one, count em, one, blurb where they insinuated rogue was some sort of front line shock trooper.

Then they proceeded to tie their skills to mechanics, make every in game rogue a thief, a murderer, or some sort of assassin.  To top it all off, they also made most rogue skills revolve around turning invisible, doing sneak attack damage, breaking engagement, etc etc.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.  I am sorry Josh posted this one blurb, but outside of that blurb, there is no evidence to indicate rogues are anything other than sneaky attackers who prefer to stay at range or stab someone in the back when they aren't looking.  You know, the classic D&D thief/rogue? 

 

Nothing about them that exists in game brings to mind "front line shock trooper".

[the_dog_days]

If I'm remembering correctly, Eder was a rogue in the beta. Pretty sure it wasn't just that one paragraph.

[Gromnir]

once again indulging in hyperbole and conflating character with class.  in poe, a murderer or assassin can be any class.  is many murderers in poe who ain't rogues?  need an actual list? am not certain why this point is so hard to accept save for the power o' nomenclature.  if the class had been called landsknecht, as a few boardies suggested, we would be less likely to see this inexplicable conflating o' character and class, 'cause shocktrooper is how most folks actual used rogues in poe.  give 'em the biggest and/or most deadly weapon and then send 'em into combat to wreak slaughter on foes suffering from a debilitating status effect. shocktrooper.  beyond the post we linked, josh defended the concept here and elsewhere, so am thinking you is being a bit disingenuous or forgetful by suggesting the rogue-as-shocktrooper were a one-off which were quick abandoned.  regardless, any class could be nasty and murderous so am not certain why folks keep bringing such up in these discussions.  and no, not every rogue in the game is a thief, murderer or assassin.  is hyperbole.  even so, am gonna admit how given the clear preponderance o' rogues w/i the doemenel family, a person who were already umbilical cord attached to the "rogue" nomenclature o' past games could tunnel-vision themselves into seeing rogues as the the Thief Class.  

 

by the way, the in-game description o' rogues were:

 

"Rogues are vicious killers, feared for the brutality of their attacks. They can be found as often in dark back alleys as the heart of battlefield skirmishes. Though unpredictable and undisciplined, rogues are commonly used as shock troops or as part of a surprise assault, their withering attacks breaking enemy ranks and morale. Rogues tend to congregate in larger numbers in cities where they can be steadily employed as mercenaries or hired muscle."

 

so clear more than a single blurb and long after the initial announcement, the brutal combatant were the essence o' the rogue and not the murderous and thiefy baggage folks is carrying 'round from past and unrelated titles. sure, rogues is killers, but not necessarily murderers or thieves.  as noted in the announcement, the rogue reputation is due to their brutal fighting style, and "not a propensity for theft or deception." given edér origin as part o' a undisciplined army, rogue makes perfect sense.  on the other hand, ydwin were described, with what little description we got, as a scientist and Not a back-alley leg breaker.  ydwin is wrong kinda rogue. 

 

folks is conflating; getting tangled up in previous game descriptions.

 

regardless, and back to the original point, based on the in-game description o' poe rogues, edér makes perfect story sense. furthermore, obsidian weren't hiding the reason they changed to fighter and it weren't for story reasons.  were simple the recognition o' how tank dependant were poe combats, particular for new players.

 

now for deadfire obsidian could abandon their earlier rogue notions and simple huddle in the warm embrace o' the vast majority o' thiefy rogues from dozens o' past crpgs. would be a mistake, but it would make easier for the folks unwilling to let go.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[smjjames]

If I'm remembering correctly, Eder was a rogue in the beta. Pretty sure it wasn't just that one paragraph.

 

Yeah, I had read on here (not this thread specifically) something about that. I don't know the specific reasons why they changed Eder from rogue to fighter.

 

 

now ydwin as an obsidian rogue is a bit o' a head scratcher, but they also got the anime-inspired goth girl in a mini-skirt and entering melee combat with fragile little spectacles, so am thinking we throw rational out the window and just kinda accept how she is a kinda pandering sidekick meant to satisfy a small but vocal preference exhibited 'mongst the fanbase. am guessing obsidian coulda' made ydwin half-feline as the result o' her experimentation if they wanted to go extreme over-the-top, but perhaps such wackiness were too much for the developers to indulge.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

 

 

*fumbles around with the dumb quote boxes screwing up* *decides to just leave it*

 

Maybe she is the lightly armed fast moving sort of fighter? Which would be rogue, since that's the sort of concept.

 

@karkarov: Rogues would be the ones flanking the barbarians as they hack their way through the melee.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

Maybe she is the lightly armed fast moving sort of fighter? Which would be rogue, since that's the sort of concept.

 

 

 

or, simply a fighter?  again, the rogue concept isn't actual "lightly armed fast moving fighter" though light armoured works well.  typical Gromnir and other folks who use rogues want heavy and powerful arms. regardless, the concept is o' a brutal and undisciplined mercenary or shocktrooper.  "hired muscle" is not a term we instant think o' when seeing ydwin or reading the blurb included as part o' her brief description.  rogue, as described multiple times by obsidian both in and outta the game, works great for edér-- there should be no confusion 'bout the applicability o' rogue class to edér as a character. nevertheless, edér, who fits naturally w/i the concept makes less sense than ydwin as back alley hired muscle? 

 

*shrug*

 

am at impasse. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 1, 2017 by Gromnir

[smjjames]

I agree with you on rogue not quite seeming to fit Ydwin, with what we do know about her and was trying to rationalize it since she wields a rapier or sabre. Not sure what kind of sword she is wielding in the early concept art and sabres are already Eders thing.

 

We'll just have to wait and see how they set it up.

Edited October 1, 2017 by smjjames

[the_dog_days]

 

If I'm remembering correctly, Eder was a rogue in the beta. Pretty sure it wasn't just that one paragraph.

 

Yeah, I had read on here (not this thread specifically) something about that. I don't know the specific reasons why they changed Eder from rogue to fighter.

 

 

They made him a fighter because he's the second companion you can pick up and the first is a mage. He's insurance in case the player character can't tank. Leaving him as a rogue meant a lot of players would've started out with three squishy party members right off the bat. And, as Gromnir has pointed out, there's little difference in the lore between a rogue and a fighter aside from one being a little more offensive oriented than the other.

[Messier-31]

For me Eder will always be a generic fighter type - ever since he was knows to be Edair in the KS campaign. And his original concept art was better in my opinion.

[Karkarov]

If I'm remembering correctly, Eder was a rogue in the beta. Pretty sure it wasn't just that one paragraph.

Pretty sure you remember that wrong.  You didn't even get named characters in the Beta, they were just generic characters like BB Fighter.

 

But yeah when I look at this guy, and you ask me, "Is this a fighter, or a rogue?"  Well... don't be shocked if my answer isn't rogue.  Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

 

Edited October 1, 2017 by Karkarov

[Gromnir]

type the following words into search:

 

retaliation rogue build

 

could the guy pictured 'bove be a mercenary or shock trooper?  sure. a character you might expect to see in dark back alleys or the heart of a battlefield? 'course. might he embrace a brutal fighting style? why not? a retaliation off-tank, with big shield and one-hand weapon is actual a great option for devil.  if is main tank for potd, you will probable want fire godlike, human or dwarf with high constitution, 'cause you is gonna wanna be getting hit, but not crit. squishy rogues typical need have higher con to genuine tank. our personal preference for the build is actual wild orlan for the defensive bonus and rauatai for the +1 con. off-tank?  well then, race is a bit less important and there is good arguments for many builds with 'bout any race combo.

 

again, at release and in-game:

 

"Rogues are vicious killers, feared for the brutality of their attacks. They can be found as often in dark back alleys as the heart of battlefield skirmishes. Though unpredictable and undisciplined, rogues are commonly used as shock troops or as part of a surprise assault, their withering attacks breaking enemy ranks and morale. Rogues tend to congregate in larger numbers in cities where they can be steadily employed as mercenaries or hired muscle."

 

get rid o' the silly glasses, put a shield in her hands and give her some decent armour, and ydwin then might arguable look a bit like a poe retaliation rogue... which is to say she would look more like the edair pic.

 

am suspecting ydwin's true value is not as a rogue or a cipher.  nope, her real value is for cosplayers.  add a nodachi and a blindfold to your ydwin costume and you is sudden the android from nier: automata. will be a serious boon at conventions... if deadfire is popular.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Boeroer]

Maybe you shouldn't put PoE rogues either into one corner or the other. Why can't they be both nowadays?

 

A shock trooper with a great sword and scale armor - a duelist guy with padded armor + rapier + buckler, a one handed dagger thief. They all say "rogue" to me. So for me Edér and also Ydwin can fit into the rogue class. Maybe it's a broad variety, but which class in PoE isn't?

 

I think OBS saw your frustrating dilemma and thus decided to make the base class rogue a more sturdy kind of shock trooper (Josh talked about that a while ago) while the new Trickster, Assassin and Street Fighter resemble other facettes of popular rogue figures/classes like thugs, thieves, stealthy killers and so on.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Boeroer

[Wormerine]

They probably defined Ydwin as cypher/Rogue to give you a choice. My character is cypher, and I dont want another one in my party. That way I can make her a Rogue or multiclass her with one of the classes being a rogue. It was probably the class which made those most sense for her.

[MaxQuest]

When pinned down, rogues can suffer from their weak defenses, but ideally they carry their momentum from one target to the next in short order."

That momentum thing cached my attention. 

It could be interesting if rogues were getting some of their resources (e.g. ability usages) restored upon killing an enemy.

[rjshae]

 

If I'm remembering correctly, Eder was a rogue in the beta. Pretty sure it wasn't just that one paragraph.

Pretty sure you remember that wrong.  You didn't even get named characters in the Beta, they were just generic characters like BB Fighter.

 

But yeah when I look at this guy, and you ask me, "Is this a fighter, or a rogue?"  Well... don't be shocked if my answer isn't rogue.  Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

 

 

 

I see that and I think: privateer. He's wearing what? Leather armor.

[morhilane]

 

 

If I'm remembering correctly, Eder was a rogue in the beta. Pretty sure it wasn't just that one paragraph.

Pretty sure you remember that wrong.  You didn't even get named characters in the Beta, they were just generic characters like BB Fighter.

 

But yeah when I look at this guy, and you ask me, "Is this a fighter, or a rogue?"  Well... don't be shocked if my answer isn't rogue.  Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

 

 

 

I see that and I think: privateer. He's wearing what? Leather armor.

 

 

That's actually POE1 padded armor...

[smjjames]

 

 

If I'm remembering correctly, Eder was a rogue in the beta. Pretty sure it wasn't just that one paragraph.

Pretty sure you remember that wrong.  You didn't even get named characters in the Beta, they were just generic characters like BB Fighter.

 

But yeah when I look at this guy, and you ask me, "Is this a fighter, or a rogue?"  Well... don't be shocked if my answer isn't rogue.  Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

 

 

 

I see that and I think: privateer. He's wearing what? Leather armor.

 

 

You mean mercenary? He doesn't look piratey in any way, also, whips never made it ingame.

[the_dog_days]

My first reaction is to check if he has six finger on his left hand.

[rjshae]

 

 

 

If I'm remembering correctly, Eder was a rogue in the beta. Pretty sure it wasn't just that one paragraph.

Pretty sure you remember that wrong.  You didn't even get named characters in the Beta, they were just generic characters like BB Fighter.

 

But yeah when I look at this guy, and you ask me, "Is this a fighter, or a rogue?"  Well... don't be shocked if my answer isn't rogue.  Anyone who says otherwise is selling something.

 

I see that and I think: privateer. He's wearing what? Leather armor.

 

You mean mercenary? He doesn't look piratey in any way, also, whips never made it ingame.

 

No, technically a privateer is not the same as a pirate. It's a type of irregular combatant recruited to fight on behalf of a nation via the use of letters of marque.

 

Does this guy look like a pirate?

[Valmy]

Most pirates were unofficially supported by one power or another even if they did not have actual letters of marque. Piracy was actually a rather lucrative investment at the time. So plenty of pirates looked like that.

[Gromnir]

Maybe you shouldn't put PoE rogues either into one corner or the other. Why can't they be both nowadays?

 

A shock trooper with a great sword and scale armor - a duelist guy with padded armor + rapier + buckler, a one handed dagger thief. They all say "rogue" to me. So for me Edér and also Ydwin can fit into the rogue class. Maybe it's a broad variety, but which class in PoE isn't?

 

I think OBS saw your frustrating dilemma and thus decided to make the base class rogue a more sturdy kind of shock trooper (Josh talked about that a while ago) while the new Trickster, Assassin and Street Fighter resemble other facettes of popular rogue figures/classes like thugs, thieves, stealthy killers and so on.

we got no problem with accepting broad categorizations.  however IF a person is gonna parse and worry over the definition o' the poe rogue (such as has happened in this thread and elsewhere,) then it seems clear ydwin is a more likely fail than edér.  the miniskirt wearing, death fixated scientist/goth-girl with fragile glasses and a light rapier is not gonna fit any as yet released obsidian description o' a rogue w/o some serious mental calisthenics... which personal doesn't bother Gromnir much at all.  no, she ain't back alley muscle or a shocktrooper, but so what? heck, our favorite paladin from poe were a st. elcga shieldbearer wild orlan aristocrat from the vailian republics.  yeah, try and make that one work w/o a full serving o' crazy.  am pretty laid back 'bout such stuff.  however, if a person is gonna get worked up 'bout the definition o' rogue and the appropriateness o' edér to be embraced by the definition, then am expecting those same people would have even greater problems with ydwin.  lack o' ydwin concern seems disingenuous or fundamental flawed IF one has similar concerns regarding edér... or edair.

 

as Gromnir has said elsewhere, am personal in favor o' leaving up to the player to rationalize any class (or multiclass) build they can imagine and actualize.  if is mechanical balanced, then am not thinking limits based 'pon personal notions o' proper or appropriate is having any value whatsoever.  let players play.  nevertheless, if somebody is gonna play they reasonableness game with class identity, am willing to go along and show folks where and how they is being hypocritical or unreasonable. 

 

no matter how you look at it, edér makes perfect sense as a rogue... if such were ever a serious concern.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Valmy]

Miniskirt wearing? Please she is no more wearing a dress or skirt than Aloth or Eder.

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by Valmy

[Gromnir]

Miniskirt wearing? Please she is no more wearing a dress or skirt than Aloth or Eder.

 

 

there isn't a catholic school in the country which allow a "hiker" like ydwin through the front door.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Valmy]

Except it is not a skirt. It is just how armor looks. And she is wearing leg armor so I think most Catholic schools would let her in, but probably be curious why she is so paranoid for her personal safety.