What are you playing right now?

[Amentep]

...But as I said, it's completely irrelevant that I murdered him (or the girl). If I had merely accepted him (or her) into my party immediately (which I could've done so with literally the same amount of effort, and almost zero roleplaying consequences), it's literally the same exact problem. The only thing that actually fixes the problem is just pretending the characters don't exist (or...uh, I guess willfully ignoring that selling their items is much, MUCH more of a benefit than having them). So the whole murder-hobo thing doesn't really matter by my estimation. (Also, honestly, this entire issue regarding lack of balance is actually really only a minor issue to me: see below.)

I'm not sure how murdering, looting and selling is substantially different from recruiting, looting and selling but to be clear, I'm using murder-hoboing as a shorthand.

 

At any rate, you're still asking for the developers to prevent you from looting people of stuff that only they can use so that you can sell it.  I can't say that I considered selling Neera or Rasaad's stuff, just like I usually don't sell any NPCs NPC specific item (unless they permadeathed).

 

Now having said that, I'm not arguing that what you're saying isn't a legit way to feel.  Certainly you're entitled to your opinion. What I'm saying is to me at least developers are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

Option A: Give an NPC a magical item and let that item have its normal value; the magical item speaks to the characters pre-PC adventures or character

Risk - Player Murder-Hobo's NPC for free loot (or just steals their stuff and kicks them out of the party).  Player complains that the economy is now broken by allowing player to mudrer-hobo companions.

 

Option B: Give an NPC a magical item (again speaking to character's unique pre-PC history) but have its value not be reflected

Risk - Player complains their "immersion" is broken by objects not being valued properly; they then proceed to complain bitterly about how games "dumb down" so as to prevent a small percentage of the playing population from being incentivized to murder-hobo.

 

Option C: Don't give any of the characters anything special that makes them unique or speaks to their individual backgrounds

Risk - Player complains new companions are bland and offer nothing new or interesting to game over listening to Minsc talk about butt-kicking for goodness the seven millionth time.

 

Know what I think an even better solution than doing any that is? Don't play or purchase an "enhanced edition" that was at least partially hijacked by completely random writers for the sake of inserting their own fanfic* party members into the game. You don't usually need bloody writers for enhanced editions...and if you're going to have them, at least make the new or rewritten content fit in at least halfway with the original content, please...or at least make it optional like you did for your iPad version of the game. I wanted some of the other things present in these EEs, but clearly, it's not really worth the bother.

 

(edit): Oops, I forgot to explain the asterisk. *: not that there's anything wrong for people to do this for their own games...but I sure as heck don't want them, and this was actually the deciding factor for me not bothering to purchase BGII:EE.

I'd disagree that an "enhanced edition" shouldn't have additional scenarios - particularly when you're talking about an RPG.  I wouldn't say its a requirement either, but it seems to be a legit way to take the game.  But maybe that's me.  Anyhow I think its probably overly dismissive to claim its "fanfic".

 

That said, I'm not entirely sure how difficult it is to just ignore Neera, Raasad, Dorn and EvildrowdudewhosenameIcan'tbebotheredtoscrolluptolookup.  Its like four forced minisceens that end with you turning each down and ignoring the rest of the game.

 

YM very obviously MV, of course.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Amentep

[GhostofAnakin]

This snow storm we're having must really be bad.  My game was supposed to be delivered today, was even listed as "out for delivery", but I saw a notice on the order page saying that it was being re-scheduled for tomorrow.

 

Maybe the mail man got stuck in a ditch somewhere.  Hope he's okay.

[Humanoid]

Maybe they should just be some raggedy old boots that hold nothing but sentimental value. After all, no one murder-hoboed Minsc just so they could vendor Boo for a million bucks. Narrativewise there's no reason a newbie adventurer would even have stuff worth thousands of gold, they'd be foolish to not sell it themselves ...if they haven't already been mugged of them by somebody else. D&D sourcebooks have guides for how much in assets a character of a given level should have, right? There's a reason those guidelines exist, and while that's not to say they're absolute guidelines, if you choose to go outside them, it's your responsibility to account for the potential outcomes. Does the dialogue even acknowledge these "important" boots? Or was this just the result of a 10 second thought bubble of "oh hey we should give every character a unique item, let's give this guy some ....boots? We haven't used boots yet right guys?"

 

Alternatively they're an already-rich guy who decided to go adventuring for the hell of it, Stede Bonnet-style, decking himself out in improbably blingy gear that just screams "rob me". In this case they'd be perfect prey for any sort of remotely evil character, and it's a reasonable assumption that they'd kill this naive fool for his phat loots.

[majestic]

The thing I find odd is the idea that a 12.5k gold item can somehow break BG's economy and lead to a lack of balance. If there's one thing that the BG games weren't it is balanced. Class choice matters more than any item you could buy, not to mention that you're almost literally swimming in gold a few hours into the games anyway.

 

Not that I disagree with the notion that a low level party member should not be carrying around stuff worth that much. That's just plain bad character/equipment design in itself.

[ShadySands]

If you want balance play POE /pettydig

[Amentep]

I'm guessing they changed the base price of Rasaad's boots (+2AC), just tested them and only got offered 125 for it. 225 for Neera's staff.

 

The +2 AC ring I have, by comparison is worth 4500, so 12.5k seems like it had to be an error.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Amentep

[Keyrock]

Aren't economy shattering bugs/exploits/oversights a staple of old skool RPGs or am I remembering wrong?

[Bartimaeus]

I'm not sure how murdering, looting and selling is substantially different from recruiting, looting and selling but to be clear, I'm using murder-hoboing as a shorthand.

Wasn't that my point exactly?

 

At any rate, you're still asking for the developers to prevent you from looting people of stuff that only they can use so that you can sell it.  I can't say that I considered selling Neera or Rasaad's stuff, just like I usually don't sell any NPCs NPC specific item (unless they permadeathed).

 

Now having said that, I'm not arguing that what you're saying isn't a legit way to feel.  Certainly you're entitled to your opinion. What I'm saying is to me at least developers are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

Option A: Give an NPC a magical item and let that item have its normal value; the magical item speaks to the characters pre-PC adventures or character

Risk - Player Murder-Hobo's NPC for free loot (or just steals their stuff and kicks them out of the party).  Player complains that the economy is now broken by allowing player to mudrer-hobo companions.

 

Option B: Give an NPC a magical item (again speaking to character's unique pre-PC history) but have its value not be reflected

Risk - Player complains their "immersion" is broken by objects not being valued properly; they then proceed to complain bitterly about how games "dumb down" so as to prevent a small percentage of the playing population from being incentivized to murder-hobo.

 

Option C: Don't give any of the characters anything special that makes them unique or speaks to their individual backgrounds

Risk - Player complains new companions are bland and offer nothing new or interesting to game over listening to Minsc talk about butt-kicking for goodness the seven millionth time.

No, see, the idea is for the developers to use just a LICK of common sense and make the items actually appropriately priced, in line with items of similar power throughout the rest of the game at very least, instead of...you know, literally being some of the best items to sell in the game. There's also the BG2 approach in making the items work only for that specific character (or rather, that specific race-class combination, to be more precise), as well worthless to merchants. However, I've always seen this as a bit too extreme, and would prefer something less anti...anti-power gamer, I guess? Where did all of these characters get all of these highly enchanted items that work for only them, anyways? This is an RPG, with the operating word being "roleplaying" - give the player a little respect for these things.

 

(edit): Yes, I imagine the prices were changed patches later after I played, since they were clearly insane prices. As I said, this thing was really only a small gripe in the grand scheme of things.

 

I'd disagree that an "enhanced edition" shouldn't have additional scenarios - particularly when you're talking about an RPG.  I wouldn't say its a requirement either, but it seems to be a legit way to take the game.  But maybe that's me.  Anyhow I think its probably overly dismissive to claim its "fanfic".

 

That said, I'm not entirely sure how difficult it is to just ignore Neera, Raasad, Dorn and EvildrowdudewhosenameIcan'tbebotheredtoscrolluptolookup.  Its like four forced minisceens that end with you turning each down and ignoring the rest of the game.

 

YM very obviously MV, of course.

These are old, old games. I've had and played them on and off for a very long time, and as a consequence, I've gotten to that point where I want everything to be just so. So when a group of people that had little connection to the original games come out of the blue and say, "Hey, we're making Enhanced Editions of your favorite games - give us money!", and it turns out one of the main selling points is terrible new content that I don't want that sticks out like a sore thumb, and that they're charging more money for the game on my platform than on another for something I don't want even the slightest part of, yer not gonna get happy feelings from me. The entire thing feels more like they were trying to get relevant experience in working in the Infinity Engine for their midquel (while also making a quick buck) than making actual genuine Enhanced Editions. The only people involved in the project that I have any respect for are the incredibly gracious modders who helped add a lot of the new art assets (the author of 1PP, Erephine, as the biggest example I know of) and the modders who helped with some of the technical stuff that the devs were clearly struggling with in the beginning (and also some of those tech people who made some rather neat miscellaneous changes to the engine). Funnily enough, with the fiasco and the community split that was the result of the EEs being released, modding actually died off even more after the EEs were released (beyond some modders doing cursory compatibility updates), rather than had any sort of revival. So all in all, no, I really don't have very many positive feelings to associate with the EEs.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Humanoid]

There was, of course, Ultima 7's risk-free http://it-he.org/ultima7.htm#gambling]gambling that let you mint so many coins out of thin air that your PC would run out of RAM.

[Nonek]

There was, of course, Ultima 7's risk-free http://it-he.org/ultima7.htm#gambling]gambling that let you mint so many coins out of thin air that your PC would run out of RAM.

 

Gambling Avatar? Thou hast lost an eigth.

 

Joining the Fellowship Avatar? Thou hast gained a reputation as a feminine hygiene product.

[Amentep]

No, see, the idea is for the developers to use just a LICK of common sense and make the items actually appropriately priced, in line with items of similar power throughout the rest of the game at very least, instead of...you know, literally being some of the best items to sell in the game. There's also the BG2 approach in making the items work only for that specific character (or rather, that specific race-class combination, to be more precise), as well worthless to merchants. However, I've always seen this as a bit too extreme, and would prefer something less anti...anti-power gamer, I guess? Where did all of these characters get all of these highly enchanted items that work for only them, anyways? This is an RPG, with the operating word being "roleplaying" - give the player a little respect for these things.

 

(edit): Yes, I imagine the prices were changed patches later after I played, since they were clearly insane prices. As I said, this thing was really only a small gripe in the grand scheme of things.

But again, having an item that is priced ridiculously doesn't change the game's nature.  It is still a roleplaying game - you're just complaining that developers allow you to play a murder-hobo, when it is your choice to play a murder-hobo.

 

Even accepting a chaotic evil party would most likely BE murder-hobos, you're not prevented from roleplaying something else.  You would - theoretically - always get more money for playing a CE/murder hobo party whether it was 100s of gold or 1000s of gold being the only difference. With you also achieving any and all penalties to reputation a CE party should have under the BG system.

 

These are old, old games. I've had and played them on and off for a very long time, and as a consequence, I've gotten to that point where I want everything to be just so. So when a group of people that had little connection to the original games come out of the blue and say, "Hey, we're making Enhanced Editions of your favorite games - give us money!", and it turns out one of the main selling points is terrible new content that I don't want that sticks out like a sore thumb, and that they're charging more money for the game on my platform than on another for something I don't want even the slightest part of, yer not gonna get happy feelings from me. The entire thing feels more like they were trying to get relevant experience in working in the Infinity Engine for their midquel (while also making a quick buck) than making actual genuine Enhanced Editions. The only people involved in the project that I have any respect for are the incredibly gracious modders who helped add a lot of the new art assets (the author of 1PP, Erephine, as the biggest example I know of) and the modders who helped with some of the technical stuff that the devs were clearly struggling with in the beginning (and also some of those tech people who made some rather neat miscellaneous changes to the engine). Funnily enough, with the fiasco and the community split that was the result of the EEs being released, modding actually died off even more after the EEs were released (beyond some modders doing cursory compatibility updates), rather than had any sort of revival. So all in all, no, I really don't have very many positive feelings to associate with the EEs.

And that's fine, but (IMO) you're laying an awful lot of bad feelings on the game that has nothing, actually, to do with the game and a lot to do with how you feel about the development and modding communities. 

 

When the GBA revamp of Eye of the Beholder came out, I actually enjoyed the new combat system better than the one in the original game.  So I guess I'm not terribly beholden to the originals when they get updated.  YMMV.  From what I've played - and this appears to be a lot of patches from when you did - the experience doesn't seem substantially different from when I played the original game back in the day. But without me having to pull out all my discs to install them.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Amentep

[Malcador]

Woo, Book 3 of Dreamfall. Rather boring so far, did have a good puzzle in the warehouse - at least relative to what came before - though I am amused no one heard the stupid robot talking to me.

[Undecaf]

Restarted PoE with the new patch and a cypher character. So far so good. Maybe I can now finally finish it properly.

 

Also rerunning Might and Magic X and Wizardry 8. God I had forgotten how much fun these games can be despite all their flaws.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Undecaf

[Bartimaeus]

But again, having an item that is priced ridiculously doesn't change the game's nature.  It is still a roleplaying game - you're just complaining that developers allow you to play a murder-hobo, when it is your choice to play a murder-hobo.

 

Even accepting a chaotic evil party would most likely BE murder-hobos, you're not prevented from roleplaying something else.  You would - theoretically - always get more money for playing a CE/murder hobo party whether it was 100s of gold or 1000s of gold being the only difference. With you also achieving any and all penalties to reputation a CE party should have under the BG system.

I have to be honest, I don't quite understand why you keep saying this: as I said before, it doesn't matter what kind of party you're playing or roleplaying, the problem still applies. Whether you're being a murder-hobo or lawful good paladin, it was still a potentially huge flub if you ever saw what the items were worth: you see those prices, and go, "Holy crap: we're going to sell these items because the money/the good it'll do our quest/whatever else outweighs the minor benefits these items give." My entire point was that playstyle really didn't matter...

 

And that's fine, but (IMO) you're laying an awful lot of bad feelings on the game that has nothing, actually, to do with the game and a lot to do with how you feel about the development and modding communities.

The original question that we're replying to was, "Are they worth buying?". What I've said has everything to do with whether they're worth buying in my opinion (content that isn't worth the extra money, no way to buy it without the extra content that most older players probably won't want, terrible dev practices that should make you not want to buy the game at all, losing out on the moddability of the originals, etc.), particularly if you still have the originals. Note that my original post didn't say, "No, absolutely never buy them,": it explained under what circumstances I think you should, and under what circumstances I think you shouldn't. I think I have answered the original question more than sufficiently fairly, given my actual overwhelmingly negative impressions of the game and its development.

 

When the GBA revamp of Eye of the Beholder came out, I actually enjoyed the new combat system better than the one in the original game.  So I guess I'm not terribly beholden to the originals when they get updated.  YMMV.  From what I've played - and this appears to be a lot of patches from when you did - the experience doesn't seem substantially different from when I played the original game back in the day. But without me having to pull out all my discs to install them.

There's nothing wrong with any of that: as I said, the original question was, "Are they (these specific "enhanced editions" of the BG series) worth buying?", and my answers were formulated based on the very specific cases of these particular EEs. If games get updated and they get BETTER (and they have an appropriate purchase value), then I'm happy to sing an enhanced game's praises. Since I do not believe that to be the case here, and in fact, I think the games were actively made WORSE compared to their original releases (plus there was some other crappy stuff I understandably associate with their release), well...well, I'm not going to sugarcoat it: they're not really worth bothering with unless you a few specific wants that make them worth buying, as I originally said. And as you said, your mileage may vary.

 

I created super-ISOs for each IE game for easy installation (and not having to bother with actual disks) many years ago, so I'm not particularly bothered by the whole install thing. However, that's obviously not something people normally do, so again, your mileage may vary.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[GhostofAnakin]

What a day for my internet (and cable tv and telephone) to go down.  I wanted to try some Destiny with the expansions, but now I need to download the update first and that's going to take about 4 hours.  So much for any gaming tonight.

[Tigranes]

The value proposition of Beamdog's Enhanced Editions have little to do with "being faithful to originals" or any such abstract allegiances. 

 

Do you want to play it on tablets?

Do you really, really want a limited zoom ability, at the cost of having blurry graphics?

Do you really, really hate installing any kind of mods, even if BG mods are highly streamlined via WeiDU?

Or perhaps are a couple of new companions and 15 minutes of new original content exciting for you?

Are you OK with an ugly UI, a raft of new bugs (which I think has mostly been fixed after all this time), and paying twice the price? 

If you answered yes to all/most of those, then EE might be worth a buy. 

If not, then.... well, they don't really offer much else.

 

The criticism about EEs is not really that they are super terrible or that they horribly ruin the original experience... they didn't really do enough to qualify as significantly changing the experience either way. Which is the point. You want to pay $20 for a couple things they made worse and a couple of added features? It's a free country.

[Vaeliorin]

Honestly, the biggest reason I bought them was that I could never get the widescreen mod to work. I always ended up with a mostly black screen and a tiny BG im the upper left corner. That, and I got them on sale so I got all three for the normal price of one.

 

That said, I think the UI is no better or worse than the originals, which admittedly isn't saying much.

[Bartimaeus]

snip

Yes, thank you: my posts got way, way too inflected with my own (admittedly unpleasant) personal feelings about the matter, but this was more or less the original idea I was going for.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Amentep]

I have to be honest, I don't quite understand why you keep saying this: as I said before, it doesn't matter what kind of party you're playing or roleplaying, the problem still applies. Whether you're being a murder-hobo or lawful good paladin, it was still a potentially huge flub if you ever saw what the items were worth: you see those prices, and go, "Holy crap: we're going to sell these items because the money/the good it'll do our quest/whatever else outweighs the minor benefits these items give." My entire point was that playstyle really didn't matter...

I'm sorry, but if you're "roleplaying" a Lawful Good Paladin and think stripping a man naked and stealing his clothes to sell for your own profit is a good act (or, depending on locale, a lawful act) then you are grossly mistaken.

 

If you're "powergaming" - ie anything that benefits me as a player is okay, fine.  But just as a powergaming Lawful Good Paladin can strip Khalid naked and force him to fight Hobgoblins until he dies so he doesn't have to waste two slots to have Jaheria in his party, that same powergamer is not going to pass up those boots. But let us be honest, being able to powergame is not new to the BG1.

 

Even though the price of the boots seems to have been an error and patched anyhow, you can't argue that even if the +2 AC boots had been priced like the +2 AC ring (4500) that it breaks roleplaying because a "good" party wouldn't murder-hobo regardless of the price.  Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil and maybe Chaotic Neutral and Lawful Evil - sure.  But good?  Nah, can't see it.

 

The original question that we're replying to was, "Are they worth buying?". What I've said has everything to do with whether they're worth buying in my opinion (content that isn't worth the extra money, no way to buy it without the extra content that most older players probably won't want, terrible dev practices that should make you not want to buy the game at all, losing out on the moddability of the originals, etc.), particularly if you still have the originals. Note that my original post didn't say, "No, absolutely never buy them,": it explained under what circumstances I think you should, and under what circumstances I think you shouldn't. I think I have answered the original question more than sufficiently fairly, given my actual overwhelmingly negative impressions of the game and its development.

 

And that's fine - certainly this is all personal opinions and such. But one of your arguments - about a broken priced item ruining "roleplay" just doesn't make sense to me, hence my interjection into this whole thing.

 

There's nothing wrong with any of that: as I said, the original question was, "Are they (these specific "enhanced editions" of the BG series) worth buying?", and my answers were formulated based on the very specific cases of these particular EEs. If games get updated and they get BETTER (and they have an appropriate purchase value), then I'm happy to sing an enhanced game's praises. Since I do not believe that to be the case here, and in fact, I think the games were actively made WORSE compared to their original releases (plus there was some other crappy stuff I understandably associate with their release), well...well, I'm not going to sugarcoat it: they're not really worth bothering with unless you a few specific wants that make them worth buying, as I originally said. And as you said, your mileage may vary.

 

I created super-ISOs for each IE game for easy installation (and not having to bother with actual disks) many years ago, so I'm not particularly bothered by the whole install thing. However, that's obviously not something people normally do, so again, your mileage may vary.

I wouldn't even know what a super-ISO was if it came up and said "hi".

 

The value proposition of Beamdog's Enhanced Editions have little to do with "being faithful to originals" or any such abstract allegiances.

I'd argue fidelity to the feel of the originals is a mark of measure for any re-release - particularly any re-release that includes changes.

 

Do you really, really hate installing any kind of mods, even if BG mods are highly streamlined via WeiDU?

Ah the mod argument. I remember when modding was a big thing years ago that people in the BG2 forum on Black Isle would insist that BG2 was unplayable without mods. That mods had "saved" this horrible game. That I had to have at least 12 mods installed or I wasn't really "playing" the game. That there were 4 key mod companions everyone had to have (particularly the vampire lady) because they were superior to every character ever done in BG2 - such depth! such writing! such emotional connections!

 

I'm sorry I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. Some of the mods were fun, but essential? Hardly. YMMV, of course.

[Gorth]

Started playing Mordheim. Unlikely to stick with the current party, but I guess I had to start somewhere to learn the basics of the game. No, it's nothing even near as fun as playing a game on the table with friends and a few beers, but when said friends are far away and 10+ years in the past, I guess it's the second best thing.

 

Edit to add: I wouldn't mind if they gave Gorka Morka the same treatment. That was a game I never got to play.

[Chilloutman]

Started playing Mordheim. Unlikely to stick with the current party, but I guess I had to start somewhere to learn the basics of the game. No, it's nothing even near as fun as playing a game on the table with friends and a few beers, but when said friends are far away and 10+ years in the past, I guess it's the second best thing.

 

Edit to add: I wouldn't mind if they gave Gorka Morka the same treatment. That was a game I never got to play.

I did get it too when it was on 50% sale. I must say that character models are really abysmal. Otherwise its kind of fun when I do one or two missions from time to time

Edited February 18, 2016 by Chilloutman

[Bartimaeus]

I'm sorry, but if you're "roleplaying" a Lawful Good Paladin and think stripping a man naked and stealing his clothes to sell for your own profit is a good act (or, depending on locale, a lawful act) then you are grossly mistaken.

 

If you're "powergaming" - ie anything that benefits me as a player is okay, fine.  But just as a powergaming Lawful Good Paladin can strip Khalid naked and force him to fight Hobgoblins until he dies so he doesn't have to waste two slots to have Jaheria in his party, that same powergamer is not going to pass up those boots. But let us be honest, being able to powergame is not new to the BG1.

 

Even though the price of the boots seems to have been an error and patched anyhow, you can't argue that even if the +2 AC boots had been priced like the +2 AC ring (4500) that it breaks roleplaying because a "good" party wouldn't murder-hobo regardless of the price.  Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil and maybe Chaotic Neutral and Lawful Evil - sure.  But good?  Nah, can't see it.

But as I've already pointed out multiple times now, the way you obtain those items doesn't necessarily involve murdering them or getting them killed at all. As a long-time player, you could easily be thinking, "Hey, I'm going to have a party that includes all the new characters!". As a Lawful Good party, you super easily think, "I wonder what these items are worth..." and actually check and think, "Whoa, the +2 AC is NOT worth the bajillion gold this could give us - we can outfit our entire party right now with that!". Et cetera. You keep repeating the whole "murder-hobo" stuff, but regardless of what kind of party you're playing, you could easily see that it's whack regardless of how you obtain the items...and there *are* multiple reasons/ways for obtaining them.

 

And that's fine - certainly this is all personal opinions and such. But one of your arguments - about a broken priced item ruining "roleplay" just doesn't make sense to me, hence my interjection into this whole thing.

Well, sure! But as I already said a few times, it was a minor gripe in the grand scheme of things anyways, (e): Plus, if it was really that huge of a problem (and I didn't have other problems that make me not want to play the EEs), I would just edit their values myself.

 

I wouldn't even know what a super-ISO was if it came up and said "hi".

Yeah, exactly. An ISO is...among other things...an archive of files (sort of like a 7z or rar or zip) that you can "mount" via software to act as a CD or DVD. I created a sort of "super" one that contains all of the disks so I don't ever have to swap out disks or the like.

 

I'd argue fidelity to the feel of the originals is a mark of measure for any re-release - particularly any re-release that includes changes.

As we're discovering here, that's incredibly difficult to quantify and therefore does not appear to be that great of a measure, however.

 

Ah the mod argument. I remember when modding was a big thing years ago that people in the BG2 forum on Black Isle would insist that BG2 was unplayable without mods. That mods had "saved" this horrible game. That I had to have at least 12 mods installed or I wasn't really "playing" the game. That there were 4 key mod companions everyone had to have (particularly the vampire lady) because they were superior to every character ever done in BG2 - such depth! such writing! such emotional connections!

 

I'm sorry I didn't believe it then and I don't believe it now. Some of the mods were fun, but essential? Hardly. YMMV, of course.

...Valen? Seriously? Valen? Ugh. Funny that you mention party member mods, as those are a type of mod that I personally have an extreme dislike for...no doubt part of my annoyance and disappointment in the EEs. ;p

 

Now, there are mods I personally use that I wouldn't ever play BG(2) ever again without (mainly AI and item and spell revising mods)...but to insist they're necessary/appropriate for every player? Hmph. Away with you, beggar!

Edited February 18, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Amentep]

But as I've already pointed out multiple times now, the way you obtain those items doesn't necessarily involve murdering them or getting them killed at all. As a long-time player, you could easily be thinking, "Hey, I'm going to have a party that includes all the new characters!". As a Lawful Good party, you super easily think, "I wonder what these items are worth..." and actually check and think, "Whoa, the +2 AC is NOT worth the bajillion gold this could give us - we can outfit our entire party right now with that!". Et cetera. You keep repeating the whole "murder-hobo" stuff, but regardless of what kind of party you're playing, you could easily see that it's whack regardless of how you obtain the items...and there *are* multiple reasons/ways for obtaining them.

Again, I don't think that a good party would recruit someone and strip them naked and sell their stuff.  Or even strip them naked and have their stuff evaluated for...insurance purposes?

 

"Rasaad, we need the armorer to look at your shoes, we...we're buying adventuring insurance in case kobolds steal them in your slee-HOLY MOTHER OF ELMINSTER, these things are worth 12.5K!"

 

Yeah, exactly. An ISO is...among other things...an archive of files (sort of like a 7z or rar or zip) that you can "mount" via software to act as a CD or DVD. I created a sort of "super" one that contains all of the disks so I don't ever have to swap out disks or the like.

 

Pretty cool.  I remember you could save the BG games disc by disc back in the day so you only had to use the play disc to run the game.  But as my current laptop doesn't have a drive and its a pain to use the external drive I have on a regular basis, I really don't want to go that route.

 

As we're discovering here, that's incredibly difficult to quantify and therefore does not appear to be that great of a measure, however.

 

If nothing else, Pillars of Eternity's development showed that!   BG-like is many things to many people.

 

...Valen? Seriously? Valen? Ugh. Funny that you mention party member mods, as those are a type of mod that I personally have an extreme dislike for...no doubt part of my annoyance and disappointment in the EEs. ;p

 

Now, there are mods I personally use that I wouldn't ever play BG(2) ever again without (mainly AI and item and spell revising mods)...but to insist they're necessary/appropriate for every player? Hmph. Away with you, beggar!

Yes! Valen! There was a lot of people who insisted you weren't really playing BG2 if Valen wasn't a companion.

 

I know there were a some AI and some re-balancing mods that made the rules to be more D&D-like and fixed some stuff (like dual wielding in BG2) that I recall being pretty good. Mods can be awesome, but I usually don't buy games for mods, they're a nice bonus if some good ones exist though.

[Bartimaeus]

Again, I don't think that a good party would recruit someone and strip them naked and sell their stuff.  Or even strip them naked and have their stuff evaluated for...insurance purposes?

 

"Rasaad, we need the armorer to look at your shoes, we...we're buying adventuring insurance in case kobolds steal them in your slee-HOLY MOTHER OF ELMINSTER, these things are worth 12.5K!"

Psh, it's just his boots. The rest of the party probably doesn't even have any boots by the time you meet him, anyways! Of course, he's a monk and can't equip much else...but that's not the rest of the party's fault.

 

Pretty cool.  I remember you could save the BG games disc by disc back in the day so you only had to use the play disc to run the game.  But as my current laptop doesn't have a drive and its a pain to use the external drive I have on a regular basis, I really don't want to go that route.

Yeah, you can do that, too. After doing that, you could also use the "Infinity Cracker" program which you could just run once in the base game directory and it would crack any IE game to not need the mandatory play disk inserted/mounted, which is what I usually did because I'm so lazy I don't even want to remount my ISOs every time after rebooting...lol

 

If nothing else, Pillars of Eternity's development showed that!   BG-like is many things to many people.

 

Yes...yes it did. Another game I tried very hard to like but which just made me end up disliking it the more I played it...

 

Yes! Valen! There was a lot of people who insisted you weren't really playing BG2 if Valen wasn't a companion.

 

I know there were a some AI and some re-balancing mods that made the rules to be more D&D-like and fixed some stuff (like dual wielding in BG2) that I recall being pretty good. Mods can be awesome, but I usually don't buy games for mods, they're a nice bonus if some good ones exist though.

Yeah, no: Valen had a neat little part in being the one to contact you for Bodhi to invite you to the graveyard after you'd gathered 15k gold in the vanilla game, and that's the part she'll keep when I play the game. And anyways, there's already too many party members anyhow...

 

We'll have to differ a little on that last note, though: moddability has always been one of the things that seems to make or break a good or even great game's community (especially in regards to longevity), particularly for singleplayer games. It's not likely I (and many others) put a few thousand hours into the IE games throughout our youth plus additional time through adulthood without great moddability: it can (and ideally will) therefore manifest as much more than merely "a nice bonus", then.

[Keyrock]

This argument is still going on?

 

 

And I thought I was anal retentive.

 

Anyway, more Dying Light: The Following for me.  I suspect it's going to take me forever to actually do the main story since I constantly get distracted by doing races and just generally ripping through dirt roads and fields at 60 mph and sending zombies flying.  Good times.  I'll probably also jump back into Satellite Reign in the next day or two.  I had gotten slightly burnt out on that game (it's a long game), but the 3 week or so break I've taken from it has done me a lot of good and I think I'm ready to return and do the final push.  I'm kind of itching to play another point & click but I don't see anything promising on the horizon except for The Interactive Adventures of Dog Mendonça and Pizzaboy, and that doesn't have a firm release date yet.