Journalism and bias in the gaming industry

[Hurlshort]

Seems more like laziness than propaganda.  It's a sad result of the 24/7 news cycle.  You get the same thing with plagiarism all over the internet.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Hurlshot

[Meshugger]

You can always ask Amber Lyon on what she thinks about CNN, her former employer. But the point is that you should always verify what you see as much as possible and even the most prestigious news organisations are not free from corruption/bias.  

Edited June 20, 2015 by Meshugger

[Nonek]

Indeed i'd say that laziness and slipshod standards are just as much the poisons that are poisoning professional journalism as anything else, I mean some of the outlets really do rely on Wikipedia! All the more reason to demand better standards and keep them on their toes in my opinion, when all journalism has become as inept, unethical, corrupt and unfit for purpose as game journalism, then we'll miss it.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Lets try to be honest...this is about gender equality. Your whole issue is with them exaggerating the "success " of female representation at E3 and that's an aspect of gender equality. And I'm not saying you are opposed to this

 

No. My issue is what I said it is. Is that there is no less and no more success than there was before. Yet they kept maligning the industry.

 

 

And I can only explain this one more time, those journalists said " E3 2015 was the best year for female characters"  ,     in there minds this was accurate and they will report this on there website and people will agree. Just because that link disputed this doesn't mean everyone will agree with it 

 

Yeah they will disagree with facts. Which is exactly the problem.

 

Its not a disagreement with the facts...its there subjective view

 

Something else I find quite bizarre, there are at least 7 prominent gaming websites who have said similar things....yet you guys seem to think they are all going to just parrot the wrong information like they idiotic sheep. You need to give people more credit ...not everyone is as unethical and easily manipulated as you may think 

 

 

It's not just games journalism, look what the mainstream media is doing, courtesy of Conan O'Brien:

 

 

 

In before "but that is not relevant!"

 

that made me laugh..but I don't know any of those people so I have no idea how clever they are 

[Meshugger]

Anyone wanna place a bet on what AMD is referring to here?

 

 

https://twitter.com/PI20XY/status/611956119070724097

 

...and look who retweeted it:

 

//edit: i jumped the gun, sorry. I should've read the whole twitter-feed.

Edited June 20, 2015 by Meshugger

[Zoraptor]

 

The Star Trek version of that was rather good even if you knew it was derivative, always nice to see Patrick Stewart and David Warner working together. Though their best known video game efforts could scarcely be more disparate quality wise (Emperor from Oblivion vs Irenicus from BG2).

 

I'd not seen that, i've just looked up the clip on Youtube and must say I might purchase the Blu-Rays and starting watching the Next generation if they're of the same quality as shown there. Thank you.

 

That is a very well regarded 2 part episode (unsurprisingly it's one of my favourites) so they definitely aren't all that quality- especially so in season 1, so be warned there. Overall though TNG is well worth a watch and has held up pretty well.

[Calax]

 

 

The Star Trek version of that was rather good even if you knew it was derivative, always nice to see Patrick Stewart and David Warner working together. Though their best known video game efforts could scarcely be more disparate quality wise (Emperor from Oblivion vs Irenicus from BG2).

 

I'd not seen that, i've just looked up the clip on Youtube and must say I might purchase the Blu-Rays and starting watching the Next generation if they're of the same quality as shown there. Thank you.

 

That is a very well regarded 2 part episode (unsurprisingly it's one of my favourites) so they definitely aren't all that quality- especially so in season 1, so be warned there. Overall though TNG is well worth a watch and has held up pretty well.

 

Seasons 3 through five are the best reguarded. In season 1 they were trying to do TOS episodes without being in the 60's, in Season 2 they were run by a sexist jerk who almost killed the series. And season seven they just plumb ran out of ideas. Deep Space 9 also had some AMAZING episodes along with it.

 

Seems more like laziness than propaganda.  It's a sad result of the 24/7 news cycle.  You get the same thing with plagiarism all over the internet.

This. I'd guess that the local channels end up getting crib notes on national stories because if a person wants a national picture they generally flick to CNN. Local stations news is based mostly around the local stuff because that's what'll actually draw viewers (if they care about current events). Consider in those two medleys that each channel wasn't affiliated with the same larger corporation. It was spread across ABC CBS NBC and Fox.

[Volourn]

"Lets try to be honest...this is about gender equality."

\

SJWs don't give a crap about 'gender equality'. That's hilarious.

 

 

"Its not a disagreement with the facts...its there subjective view

 

Something else I find quite bizarre, there are at least 7 prominent gaming websites who have said similar things....yet you guys seem to think they are all going to just parrot the wrong information like they idiotic sheep. You need to give people more credit ...not everyone is as unethical and easily manipulated as you may think "

 

SJWs are.

 

"SJWs never lie."

 

Source: SJWs (lmao)

 

 

Theya re disputing fact. You keep talking about feels. feels are useless if they are based on lies.

 

 

SJW: I feel my SO cheated on me.

 

FACT: They did not.

 

SJW: I feel it so it must be true!

 

 

LMAO

[Oerwinde]

 

 

Lets try to be honest...this is about gender equality. Your whole issue is with them exaggerating the "success " of female representation at E3 and that's an aspect of gender equality. And I'm not saying you are opposed to this

 

No. My issue is what I said it is. Is that there is no less and no more success than there was before. Yet they kept maligning the industry.

 

 

And I can only explain this one more time, those journalists said " E3 2015 was the best year for female characters"  ,     in there minds this was accurate and they will report this on there website and people will agree. Just because that link disputed this doesn't mean everyone will agree with it 

 

Yeah they will disagree with facts. Which is exactly the problem.

 

Its not a disagreement with the facts...its there subjective view

 

Something else I find quite bizarre, there are at least 7 prominent gaming websites who have said similar things....yet you guys seem to think they are all going to just parrot the wrong information like they idiotic sheep. You need to give people more credit ...not everyone is as unethical and easily manipulated as you may think 

 

 

I think its less about ethics and more about incompetence.

 

Also:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201506/anti-intellectualism-is-killing-america

 

The obsession with feelings over facts is killing America.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Oerwinde

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Lets try to be honest...this is about gender equality. Your whole issue is with them exaggerating the "success " of female representation at E3 and that's an aspect of gender equality. And I'm not saying you are opposed to this

 

No. My issue is what I said it is. Is that there is no less and no more success than there was before. Yet they kept maligning the industry.

 

 

And I can only explain this one more time, those journalists said " E3 2015 was the best year for female characters"  ,     in there minds this was accurate and they will report this on there website and people will agree. Just because that link disputed this doesn't mean everyone will agree with it 

 

Yeah they will disagree with facts. Which is exactly the problem.

 

Its not a disagreement with the facts...its there subjective view

 

Something else I find quite bizarre, there are at least 7 prominent gaming websites who have said similar things....yet you guys seem to think they are all going to just parrot the wrong information like they idiotic sheep. You need to give people more credit ...not everyone is as unethical and easily manipulated as you may think 

 

 

I think its less about ethics and more about incompetence.

 

Also:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/our-humanity-naturally/201506/anti-intellectualism-is-killing-america

 

The obsession with feelings over facts is killing America.

 

 

Oerwinde please try to understand  my next point, I do consider you a reasonable person who will admit he is wrong if the right evidence can be presented 

 

I reread that article and now I have additional clarity on what really happened and why the journalists made those comments 

 

Its true that  last year was clearly a more successful year for female characters so I won't even deny that but this year you had a massive visible presence of gender equality at E3. All those female developers and even Ubisoft showing the game with a female character would have convinced anyone that the industry is really changing for the better and really adopting a progressive route

 

No wonder this blew those journalists away..it is a good step. So they are mistaking the change at the E3 to suddenly " games this year are the most progressive " 

 

Be gentle, they meant well

[Oerwinde]

I agree showcasing the female devs is a huge step. The biggest problem is in perception. The whole "feelings ARE facts" BS leads to people feeling the industry is hostile to women because people feel it is without facts to back it up, but it must be true because feelings. Showcasing the female devs, who I believe most who have spoken out have said there is no hostility towards them in the industry, will only lead to a perception shift. A "hey look at all those female devs, maybe its not such a bad industry" type thing. More female devs, means more female input, means better stories and characters, means less people like Anita whining about non-problems.

 

Minority representation is a harder beast to tackle though as its roots are likely in economics. More economic problems means less education, means less opportunity. It blew my mind watching Inequality for All and finding out the US largely had free tuition for university in the 60s, now people have to be wealthy, or go into massive debt to go.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Oerwinde

[Blarghagh]

I may have mentioned that I was recently downsized and decided to go back to school to finish my bachelor (game art & design). When I was there a couple of years ago, it was about 25% girls or so. Currently, I've seen 1 girl on about 25 dudes. That's a huge drop. Of course this is all anecdotal, but I can't help but wonder if a certain narrative pushed other passionate women away from what they really wanted to do.

[BruceVC]

I agree showcasing the female devs is a huge step. The biggest problem is in perception. The whole "feelings ARE facts" BS leads to people feeling the industry is hostile to women because people feel it is without facts to back it up, but it must be true because feelings. Showcasing the female devs, who I believe most who have spoken out have said there is no hostility towards them in the industry, will only lead to a perception shift. A "hey look at all those female devs, maybe its not such a bad industry" type thing. More female devs, means more female input, means better stories and characters, means less people like Anita whining about non-problems.

 

Minority representation is a harder beast to tackle though as its roots are likely in economics. More economic problems means less education, means less opportunity. It blew my mind watching Inequality for All and finding out the US largely had free tuition for university in the 60s, now people have to be wealthy, or go into massive debt to go.

 

I may have mentioned that I was recently downsized and decided to go back to school to finish my bachelor (game art & design). When I was there a couple of years ago, it was about 25% girls or so. Currently, I've seen 1 girl on about 25 dudes. That's a huge drop. Of course this is all anecdotal, but I can't help but wonder if a certain narrative pushed other passionate women away from what they really wanted to do.

Edited June 21, 2015 by BruceVC

[Bartimaeus]

So...ideally, we should have a more positive narrative/environment for women developers, which means that this positivity, even if it's ignoring the actual facts of the situation, could actually be good. On the other hand, it's these same people who are now celebrating this - that things have gotten better as a result of their "efforts" - who are the ones that have been actually pushing the narrative that the industry is not welcoming...and who are now reversing their positions, even though things don't really look that much different at all. What a perplexing (and perhaps paradoxical?) situation.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[Ganrich]

Perhaps, instead of demonizing the industry for what it potentially is, we should be nurturing the industry to be better. Fear mongerring leads to avoidance. Where a grass roots movement to increase female developer populations would be nurturing. Something like the Fine Young Capitalists, which was ironically demonized by the fear mongerers.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I may have mentioned that I was recently downsized and decided to go back to school to finish my bachelor (game art & design). When I was there a couple of years ago, it was about 25% girls or so. Currently, I've seen 1 girl on about 25 dudes. That's a huge drop. Of course this is all anecdotal, but I can't help but wonder if a certain narrative pushed other passionate women away from what they really wanted to do.

Take into account that we're separated by the Atlantic ocean and I'm going purely from anecdotal and second hand information, but I've noticed more women in my university gravitating towards soft or non-science areas rather than hard science. Not sure why that is, but I've noticed that women are currently dominating Business courses especially. I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing(except for anyone getting a business degree), but it would be interesting to see a study on why this is.

[Calax]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP769IdU_YE

 

Relevant IMO.

[BruceVC]

Perhaps, instead of demonizing the industry for what it potentially is, we should be nurturing the industry to be better. Fear mongerring leads to avoidance. Where a grass roots movement to increase female developer populations would be nurturing. Something like the Fine Young Capitalists, which was ironically demonized by the fear mongerers.

 

I agree that demonizing the gaming industry to implement change wasn't necessarily the right approach, even if it achieved the desired results if you look at E3 

 

 

People like Anita and Alexander followed a certain doctrine that has been misunderstood by many gamers and basically led to the creation of GG which in turn led to a period of consternation and  acrimony where some gamers really felt they were being vilified. So you then had this 8 month " war" between some gamers and people who believe in SJ changes

 

It wasn't necessary because many gamers do believe in these changes, so I feel a more softer approach would have been more effective. I know people will say things like " yes but people mustn't be so defensive ( in regards to the Alexander article and its impact ) " but end of the day there were white, male gamers who were offended and felt they were being targeted

 

So from a SJ perspective we need to be aware of this and ask if forcing certain changes without them being accepted and understood  is really the best way forward?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zP769IdU_YE

 

Relevant IMO.

 

That interview made me laugh, his daughter thinking the moms comments were sexist

 

But this is more a case of just explaining what these words mean and when it is appropriate to use them. Comedians don't need to do comedy  at universities, I don't blame them

 

But I suppose there is some relevance to the question " can we make jokes about any topic and be surprised if we get criticized " ( for example in regards to Bruce Jenner ) ? 

[Blarghagh]

I agree that demonizing the gaming industry to implement change wasn't necessarily the right approach, even if it achieved the desired results if you look at E3

 

But it didn't? The only result is that people applauded status quo to show their own ignorance.

[Darkpriest]

 

I agree that demonizing the gaming industry to implement change wasn't necessarily the right approach, even if it achieved the desired results if you look at E3

 

But it didn't? The only result is that people applauded status quo to show their own ignorance.

 

 

well, one thing that it did, was a poor amount of hostesses, but that i guess bad for those girls who wanted to be them and get some dollah, and the suits did it to cut the costs, as it did not really add that much to the event itself and could be easily cut from the ledgers... I miss the eye candy though...

[Nonek]

I may have mentioned that I was recently downsized and decided to go back to school to finish my bachelor (game art & design). When I was there a couple of years ago, it was about 25% girls or so. Currently, I've seen 1 girl on about 25 dudes. That's a huge drop. Of course this is all anecdotal, but I can't help but wonder if a certain narrative pushed other passionate women away from what they really wanted to do.

 

You can certainly see how this might have happened, the toxic atmosphere created by Leigh Alexander and the gamers are dead articles with their nasty little childish ranting, and McIntosh declaring that developers are racist, sexist and whatever other perjorative terms he is having his sock puppet mimic this week certainly might give a negative impression to normal, reasonable people.

 

Of course anybody whom has spent any time with developers will know that this is untrue, and they are just interested in making entertainment, but the false narrative and the toxic atmosphere created by SJF's will persist as long as there are pathetically inept and hateful sites such as Polygon and RPS spouting their bile.

 

It's a shame that there are not better messages being published by industry veterans such as Amy Hennig and Roberta Williams, whom know the industry inside and out and know that it is a meritocracy. Then again positivity obviously does not appeal to the current crop of "game journalists," whom would rather harangue their audience, and pretend to support those whom embrace victimhood in a vain effort to hide their hypocrisy. It will be a shame if such women as might be the next Ms Hennig or Williams are dissuaded from entering the industry because of the toxic environment SJF's have created.

[Barothmuk]

and know that it is a meritocracy.

Lol.

[Malcador]

Well, in a way it is, you will tend to succeed if your games sell well. Tale of Tales found that out

Edited June 22, 2015 by Malcador

[Blarghagh]

Selling well is hardly merit.

[Amentep]

Unless your basis for "merit" is "selling well", of course.