So...the End...a bit anticlimactic, isnt it ?

[archangel979]

oh, and for the record, without reading a lot of the non-main quest stuff it took 29h....

See, this is your problem. I suggest you stop playing RPGs and stick to FPS games.

[Aqueous]

I think the amount of posts and arguments in this thread suggests perhaps the ending wasn't such an anti-climax, eh?

[Zenicetus]

If Thaos is no more and no one takes his place, what happens? Presumably he was the only one who knew enough to keep things running. You need to speak Engwithan to run the machines, no? I know it is revealed in the end that someone reactivated the machine in Defiance Bay, but it was also revealed that the Leaden Key is a highly centralized organization and that most members have no idea what's going on. Also, how do the Gods sustain themselves? Is there also some natural process that has nothing to do with the machines? Like people voluntarily giving their souls (or parts of them) to the gods through praying and devotion? Would then the Gods die if people stopped believing and/or no one maintained the machines? What of the six people who know the truth and were allowed to leave the place? Will the gods try to hunt them down? I'd have appreciated at least some hints, if not answers. I know a sequel might bring answers, but making the final choice, if you can call it that, would feel better if I had more information.

 

We know the machines were used to augment Magran's power, and (perhaps) to create the Gods in the first place. But I don't recall anything in the game suggesting that the machines are required to sustain the Gods on a continuing basis.

 

Unless I missed something, we're given no information on what plane of existence they live on, whether they actually require continued worship to exist, or anything else. They're just there in the background, doing their thing like the Olympian pantheon... occasionally messing around in human affairs. It's probably in the best interest of the series that they remain somewhat mysterious, so we can discover more about the setup in future sequels and expansions.

 

As for the Leaden Key, if you destroy the machine in Defiance Bay it's never reactivated. And there is are two endings for Aloth, where he can either go on a crusade to demolish the Leaden Key organization, or become its Grandmaster. Either way it doesn't seem to be very important anymore as far as the Gods (or the game series) are concerned. We shouldn't see it make another appearance, give that option for Aloth to demolish it.

[kaiki]

What of the six people who know the truth and were allowed to leave the place? Will the gods try to hunt them down?

 

Lightning strike in my brain. PoE 2, the Woedica gets some/all of the other gods to band together to try and hunt you and your companions down in order to keep the secret from being revealed. You have to dig deep into how the gods were created and perhaps create a new pantheon that's worthy of the people of Eora.....and murder alot of gods along the way.

[Anonymous1924]

We know the machines were used to augment Magran's power, and (perhaps) to create the Gods in the first place. But I don't recall anything in the game suggesting that the machines are required to sustain the Gods on a continuing basis.

 

Unless I missed something, we're given no information on what plane of existence they live on, whether they actually require continued worship to exist, or anything else. They're just there in the background, doing their thing like the Olympian pantheon... occasionally messing around in human affairs. It's probably in the best interest of the series that they remain somewhat mysterious, so we can discover more about the setup in future sequels and expansions.

 

As for the Leaden Key, if you destroy the machine in Defiance Bay it's never reactivated. And there is are two endings for Aloth, where he can either go on a crusade to demolish the Leaden Key organization, or become its Grandmaster. Either way it doesn't seem to be very important anymore as far as the Gods (or the game series) are concerned. We shouldn't see it make another appearance, give that option for Aloth to demolish it.

 

Well, I inferred that from the fact that Woedica apparently needs souls to regain lost power. If that's how it's replenished, that tells me something. If nothing else, they are human constructs so the same rules ought to apply. What do they say in the Blood Sands? "You need to give something to gain something"? I thought they ought to be more mysterious when I was in their tower. I thought that hearing their voice directly and having them speak to you directly cheapened them. But then 15 minutes later, their nature was revealed, so it mattered little. Shame about that part, really.

 

The tower doesn't matter. My point was that anyone would be a poor replacement for Thaos (in spite of the fact that there is an ending that shows that people other than him can operate some of the machines). Thaos was an Engwithan, understood how things work and had centuries of experience. Aloth is just some guy.

Edited May 2, 2015 by Anonymous1924

[StoneCraft]

 

 

Nah, it isn't that. All the more reason to share it and celebrate to me. We can finally bring those phonies down!

 

For me the big deal is it makes thaos' actions and motivations incoherent. To prevent theoretical suffering and upheaval in the name of false gods, he's going to cause real suffering and upheaval in.. the name of false gods. Uh... Well done, O high priest of stupid. Granted, it would still be horrible if they were real gods, but that he knowingly perpetrated his own lie, which had a net result of only suffering, this seems fairly absurd. Extra pain icing on the suffering cake, as it were.

 

 

The game has a lot of subtext that isn't clearly spelled out for the player. Examples, the implication that humans, elves, dwarves, etc evolved from a common ancestor in similar natural conditions as prevail in our own universe, and that the sterile relations between them are a result of the same biological barriers that prevent procreation between homo sapiens and near human relatives like chimpanzees. That being the case, to someone like Thaos, relations between these species must necessarily go the way of homo sapiens and Neanderthals, with each sapient species trying to wipe the others out to become the dominant race on the continent. 

Creating a religion that maintains that races like Orlans are the intentioned creations of Galawain (who is allied to Magran, etc) or bringing elves and humans together in the Aedyr Empire under the watchful eye of Woedica, helps organize intelligent species into a web of obligations that allows them to create a shared society despite the absence of extended blood and kin ties. 

 

If you look at a lot of the instances of conflict in the game, you can see many of them are driven by race. For example, the Glanfath tribal rivalries are *mostly* characterized by tensions between the older elves that began the culture, the newer Orlans, and humans, etc. 

[ModernModron]

 

(edit for clarity) In reality, the people who think that faith in a deity is necessary for people to live morally are not the same people who believe that no deities ever really existed. The two schools of thought are very much at odds with each other, which is why Engwithans don't make sense, because they believed both things simultaneously.

 

I don't see a contradiction, as long as one assumes the Engwithians were a deeply cynical and controlling culture (and they'd have to be, to go about creating Gods from scratch). Maybe they didn't need Gods as a moral compass themselves, but the concept was a useful means of avoiding total chaos in the non-Engwithian world at large; all those savages out there. 

 

It wouldn't be the first time a "higher" culture used enforced religious conversion as a convenient tool of controlling "the Other." It's a classic tool of colonialism. 

 

 

If that's all they needed the gods for... why not just lie to the "lesser" savages?  Wouldn't that be significantly easier than building fake gods?  Surely any culture that could 'prove' there were no gods would also determine that the created gods were fake.

 

[Zenicetus]

If that's all they needed the gods for... why not just lie to the "lesser" savages?  Wouldn't that be significantly easier than building fake gods?  Surely any culture that could 'prove' there were no gods would also determine that the created gods were fake.

 

Lying might not be enough. It helps if you use your superior technology to "wow " the natives, so they forget their own invented Gods and believe in your new ones. The Old Gods don't speak into your heads and make statues flame... look, the new ones do!

 

At the quasi-Medieval level of the rest of the world, the natives don't have the resources the Engwithians had, to determine that the created Gods were fake.

 

Something else we don't know (I don't think?) is exactly what happened to make the Engwithains a dead civilization. Maybe most of them entered the God head(s) in some way, as a means of eternal life. So that would be one more reason to go to the trouble of actually creating Gods in some way. There is still much we don't know about the background here.

[kaiki]

Something else we don't know (I don't think?) is exactly what happened to make the Engwithains a dead civilization.

 

 

 

I thought the implication was that the Engwithains were wiped out in order to create the pantheon as well as feed all the other crazy soul technology they were toying with, ie the Endless Paths.

[Venatio]

 

Something else we don't know (I don't think?) is exactly what happened to make the Engwithains a dead civilization.

 

 

 

I thought the implication was that the Engwithains were wiped out in order to create the pantheon as well as feed all the other crazy soul technology they were toying with, ie the Endless Paths.

 

 

Well, first off - what were the Engwithains? Mostly Elves, right? We have lots of those around. What was lost was their civilization and culture, which was not necessarily a race related issue. Thaos claims to have worked at stopping any civilization from reaching the level of science and technology of the Engwithains - but who is to say that Thaos and his order did not themselves cause the disappearance of their tech to begin with? Then the rest of the Engwithains, be they elves or other races, would have just dispersed among new nations and countries over the millennium. 

 

As for the massive sacrifice seen after we kill Thaos, I was of the mind that these were what remained of Iovara's followers - herded to their doom and sacrificed. But yes, a definitive answer as to what the Engwithans were and why the Glanfalans worship them as "The Builders" would be useful in outlining the scope of the story. 

 

Really, there is a lot of stuff that is not clearly explained. Well enough for mysterious conjecture but not when we ourselves could ask such questions. 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Venatio

[Micamo]

As for the Leaden Key, if you destroy the machine in Defiance Bay it's never reactivated. And there is are two endings for Aloth, where he can either go on a crusade to demolish the Leaden Key organization, or become its Grandmaster. Either way it doesn't seem to be very important anymore as far as the Gods (or the game series) are concerned. We shouldn't see it make another appearance, give that option for Aloth to demolish it.

And then Pillars of Eternity 2 makes you play the Watcher again, railroaded into working for the Leaden Key to stop the Collectors...

 

Thaos and all of those dudes who tried to kill you? They were just part of a rogue cell.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Micamo

[kaiki]

 

As for the Leaden Key, if you destroy the machine in Defiance Bay it's never reactivated. And there is are two endings for Aloth, where he can either go on a crusade to demolish the Leaden Key organization, or become its Grandmaster. Either way it doesn't seem to be very important anymore as far as the Gods (or the game series) are concerned. We shouldn't see it make another appearance, give that option for Aloth to demolish it.

And then Pillars of Eternity 2 makes you play the Watcher again, railroaded into working for the Leaden Key to stop the Collectors...

 

Thaos and all of those dudes who tried to kill you? They were just part of a rogue cell.

 

 

"The Gods are too stubborn to see the truth, we're on our own."

[ModernModron]

 

If that's all they needed the gods for... why not just lie to the "lesser" savages?  Wouldn't that be significantly easier than building fake gods?  Surely any culture that could 'prove' there were no gods would also determine that the created gods were fake.

 

Lying might not be enough. It helps if you use your superior technology to "wow " the natives, so they forget their own invented Gods and believe in your new ones. The Old Gods don't speak into your heads and make statues flame... look, the new ones do!

 

At the quasi-Medieval level of the rest of the world, the natives don't have the resources the Engwithians had, to determine that the created Gods were fake.

 

Something else we don't know (I don't think?) is exactly what happened to make the Engwithains a dead civilization. Maybe most of them entered the God head(s) in some way, as a means of eternal life. So that would be one more reason to go to the trouble of actually creating Gods in some way. There is still much we don't know about the background here.

 

 

If the silent gods everyone thought existed had kept the savages in-line this long, they ought to keep doing so just fine.

 

Until and unless the savages bring themselves up to the Engiwthans' level, they won't know that the pretend gods don't really exist.  And once they do bring themselves up to that level, they shouldn't be concerned by the fact - just like the Engwithans.

Edited May 4, 2015 by ModernModron

[ToveriJuri]

With all the revelations and knowledge you gained from the quest I kind of wish there would have been a choice To use the machine to empower yourself and become kind of like Thaos. The purpose being is that you have now found a new goal that you must pursue, destroying the gods for example. The gods maybe just constructs, but their power and influence is real. It would have been interesting if there was some sort of option to end that. At least that's what my personal choice would have been if at all possible.

 

Obviously giving such choices would make it more difficult to consider expansions and maybe even sequels. I still kind of hope that the expansions can lead you to that path.

[Dinky Dino]

Just finished the game for the first time and i must say that Act 4 was a major letdown....didnt feel to be in tune with the rest of the game.

the quests you get from the gods are each done in a matter of minutes + travel time

 

cant exactly put my finger on it but after descending the pit i was expecting an epic dungeoncrawl and not a "run through in 15min with some minor trash mobs" experience leading up to Thaos. thats kinda symptomatic for the entire act...just feels cheap and somewhat rushed compared to 1-3

 

 

also, imo, the Thaos fight has waaaaaaaaaaaay to many loss of control effects ... attempted it numerous times and more often then not half my party was dead from the first hit from the judge despite trying like hell to get away from melee...

 

and then theres the actual ending...10min. of narration and thats it...it just doesnt feel like you've accomplished something big...sure, the narration tells you otherwise but the feeling after defeatint Thaos is just kinda...meh...

 

oh, and for the record, without reading a lot of the non-main quest stuff it took 29h....

 

Not to me since I know this is a set up for the expansion where we get to penetrate the realms of the gods right? Right??

[robar63]

I liked the ending though.

Conerning all this Gods, as my understanding goes, Engwithians developed these soul-capturing machines, figured out that there is no greater power to stop them from using them, decided to create artificial "gods" themselves. Well, the gods were created essentially from the souls of Engwithians. So Engwithians cheated everyone, they continue to rule over all the civilizations in form of "gods". That's why the rule of these "gods" can continue only until the secret of the their creation is discovered. That's why the Engwitians decided to cease to exist (as mortals), so that their secret will die with them.

 

The question that Iovara poses in the end is whether a comfortable lie better than an uncomfortable truth.

 

Concerning the ending battle itself with Theos is very easy, especially in comparison with Adra dragon. I attacked him with level 6 psionic/wizard paralyzing and weakining spells, he got paralyzed instantly. With an concentrated attack from all my party he went down in about 5 seconds, really didn't even managed to cast a spell.

And I would agree that Theos is probably not as charismatic as Sarevok.

[Torm51]

A Crusade shall be called to once again put down Helig of Thein.  This abomination was once a nightmare in Eora and now plagues these forums.  I am gathering an elite group of 5 forum members to come with me (not including me).  So I have one volunteer so far.  Me (Paladin).  Who else shall embark on this great crusade with me!?

Edited January 8, 2016 by Torm51

[Torm51]

I liked the ending though.

Conerning all this Gods, as my understanding goes, Engwithians developed these soul-capturing machines, figured out that there is no greater power to stop them from using them, decided to create artificial "gods" themselves. Well, the gods were created essentially from the souls of Engwithians. So Engwithians cheated everyone, they continue to rule over all the civilizations in form of "gods". That's why the rule of these "gods" can continue only until the secret of the their creation is discovered. That's why the Engwitians decided to cease to exist (as mortals), so that their secret will die with them.

 

The question that Iovara poses in the end is whether a comfortable lie better than an uncomfortable truth.

 

Concerning the ending battle itself with Theos is very easy, especially in comparison with Adra dragon. I attacked him with level 6 psionic/wizard paralyzing and weakining spells, he got paralyzed instantly. With an concentrated attack from all my party he went down in about 5 seconds, really didn't even managed to cast a spell.

And I would agree that Theos is probably not as charismatic as Sarevok.

Although this is an ancient post you replied to I do agree with your assessment in every way and thought the ending was spectacular.

[FlintlockJazz]

A Crusade shall be called to once again put down Helig of Thein.  This abomination was once a nightmare in Eora and now plagues these forums.  I am gathering an elite group of 5 forum members to come with me (not including me).  So I have one volunteer so far.  Me (Paladin).  Who else shall embark on this great crusade with me!?

You have my axe! 

[Torm51]

That's two!  Your awesome forum beard is welcome on this expedition Flint! 

[FlintlockJazz]

That's two!  Your awesome forum beard is welcome on this expedition Flint! 

My beard won't let you down!

[the_dog_days]

Never has facial hair let anyone down.

[AndreaColombo]

Especially if it's as classy as Seneca Crane's:

 

[FlintlockJazz]

Especially if it's as classy as Seneca Crane's:

 

Or the greatest man ever, Brian Blessed!

 

[Harry Easter]

In case of Thaos you could say, that another theme of the game was "you can't stop time/change". At the end Thaos was not only afraid of the end of the kin, he was afraid of this new world, the world it could become through Animancy.

 

The gods were created because the Engwithians wanted a world were some kind of definitive order exists. A world with concrete rules and concepts of morale, the kind of concepts the gods provided. But even the gods aren't eternal: Woedica isn't the queen of gods anymore, Eothas is dead, Abydon was reborn as a golem, Skaen had a portfolio stolen by Woedica etc. I always found that Twin Elms was the strongest aspect of the story, because now we not only just worked with the gods, we were confronted with the concepts they represent, in a world where you are constantly reborn and no real afterlife seems to exists. We didn't choose a god, we choose which philosophy fitted best for us or our character.

 

The only things that seems to be constant in this worlds is to be reborn and you having to choose how you want to spend your life. Still believing, even if you know that your god seems to be death? Can do (Éder). Fighting the good fight, because you think it is the right way? Aloth will do it, even if it kills him to fight the leaden key. And was your journey really pointless, when the person you were looking was dead? Ask Sagani, maybe she has an answer.

 

It's how you choose to spend your life what is important. The will of the kin is maybe greater than they give themselve credit for, the creation of the gods could be actually the greatest sign of this. Even if they were born out of desperation and a very pessimistic view of the world, they show that the will CAN change the world. Everyone has to die one day. You, Thaos, and it is fair to assume, that the gods will also finally die. But it is for you to decide, how much it was worth it.

 

That's what I took at least away from the game and why my character (Deathgodlike/Paladin/Dwarfish parents) choose to give the souls back to the children of Dyrwood. So they have at least a chance to choose. That's why I also got Thaos back into the wheel and because it didn't matter in the end. I am an Atheist, but I think those conclusion are worthwhile for people like me and spiritual people, as long as you don't really think that here is big order in the universe or there has to be one. Or if you think that punishment is more important than mercy.   

Edited July 26, 2016 by Harry Easter