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So...the End...a bit anticlimactic, isnt it ?

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Just finished the game for the first time and i must say that Act 4 was a major letdown....didnt feel to be in tune with the rest of the game.

the quests you get from the gods are each done in a matter of minutes + travel time

 

cant exactly put my finger on it but after descending the pit i was expecting an epic dungeoncrawl and not a "run through in 15min with some minor trash mobs" experience leading up to Thaos. thats kinda symptomatic for the entire act...just feels cheap and somewhat rushed compared to 1-3

 

 

also, imo, the Thaos fight has waaaaaaaaaaaay to many loss of control effects ... attempted it numerous times and more often then not half my party was dead from the first hit from the judge despite trying like hell to get away from melee...

 

and then theres the actual ending...10min. of narration and thats it...it just doesnt feel like you've accomplished something big...sure, the narration tells you otherwise but the feeling after defeatint Thaos is just kinda...meh...

 

oh, and for the record, without reading a lot of the non-main quest stuff it took 29h....

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TBH the pace picking up was exactly what I wanted. After having done so much questing and dungeon crawling (playing on hard, so what might've been normal mode's "trash mobs" aren't so trashy anymore) as soon as some of the big late game revelations were dropped, I didn't really feel like going through another epic dungeon crawl. I wanted to get to Thaos and beat him down.

 

Can't say I had the same reaction to the ending, either. (SPOILERS) You solve what's wrong with you and what's wrong with Dyrwood. Those both felt big to me. But I guess everyone comes in with different expectations.

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Unfortunately, it is. Maybe I have just played too much games like this. Whole game felt average - no fresh ideas, too much micromanagement, many unlogical situations. I can see that Obsidian did their best, its a good game, but I grew tired of it near the end, and the ending did not represent all my efforts (Hard difficulty, completed all quests). It was just... pictures with descriptions, which everyone gets. No hidden secret solutions. Too many questions were asked without any answers. Planescape Torment had only one question, and it was amazing that it did not had any answer, but this game just overused this... Anyway, I really do hope that others had find this game epic.

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 (SPOILERS) You solve what's wrong with you and what's wrong with Dyrwood. Those both felt big to me. But I guess everyone comes in with different expectations.

 

 

 

Did you really feel that solving the problems for dyrwood actually made a difference? To be honest, I caught myself not really caring what happened to the place. I mean, your keep isn't really integrated in the story (and you cant really do anything with it) and there is no one you really care about. Besides, all your companions go their own way after your adventure. The game lacks a general finishing touch that makes you care for the world and characters. No follow-through/ go-back-to quests and no real connection to any of the factions. I mean, the lack of change after a revolution was rather astounding wouldn't you say?

It might have been the choices I made - however much I felt that they lacked real impact - and the quests I didn't see, but I feel this could've been 'fixed' with just a few months more time.

 

'Solving' the problem of your history/soul however did feel somewhat satisfying. I liked the story telling through flashback/images. In the end however, I felt there was a huge infodump - which I didn't really like. It felt like: Slowly progressing story -> slowly progressing story -> .... -> Infodump -> end - It felt cut short.

 

So in short: yea I agree, the ending was pretty unsatisfying and anticlimactic. If only they could've kept up the quality they showed in the first half(2/3) of the game - which was amazing and I loved every second of it. Everything from Twin Elms onward was disappointing and felt rushed. But hey, high expectations is my middle name  :wacko: .

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I agree. I was very underwhelmed and confused. I was sure there would be some big twist or sudden realization that just made everything fall into place but it never came. It was kind of a mess, to be honest.

 

The final dungeon was not exciting at all. Definitely agree with you there, too. Well, there really weren't any epic dungeons in the entire game, except the one under the stronghold. 

 

Maybe we'll get a more exciting plot and bigger dungeons in the expansion(s). :) 

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I agree. I was very underwhelmed and confused. I was sure there would be some big twist or sudden realization that just made everything fall into place but it never came. It was kind of a mess, to be honest.

 

The final dungeon was not exciting at all. Definitely agree with you there, too. Well, there really weren't any epic dungeons in the entire game, except the one under the stronghold. 

 

Maybe we'll get a more exciting plot and bigger dungeons in the expansion(s). :)

 

 

The game doesn't do epic dungeons well on higher difficulties. You attrition too fast. They'd have to sprinkle in way more resting kits. Or you'd be leaving a dungeon every level or so to grab more kits.

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Did we all play the same game? There was a big reveal that made it all come into place, two of them.

 

Spoilers here.

 

 

 

 

 

First: The whole situation is Woedica making a power play. The Saints War was Eothas trying to stop this plan before it got going. Magran stepped in at the end, trying to take Eothas' slice of cake for herself.

 

Second: The gods themselves are just constructions designed to create peace and stability. Thaos doesn't give a damn about Woedica, and this entire war for supremacy is just theatre put on for the benefit of the Kith. Thaos' ultimate aim is to end all chaos, and using this God-construct as a tool to do so. However, what was only said briefly is the whole game is about "gods" and belief. Even Iovara holds a god: choice. Every character is defined by their god, whether or not that god is a god at all (or if any of the gods are).

 

As per the ending itself? Baldur's gate had a short video, showing the Bhaalspawn conflict was far from over, but most obsidian games have an epilogue telling you how your travels and choices changed the world. Why would this have something else?

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Everything after gaining access to Twin Elms is pretty anticlimactic, and almost seemed rushed, though they explained everything clearly, so saying it didn't make any sense seems to me more a player issue than a game issue. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad I played the game, but it was just way too "safe" in its attempt to be the spiritual successor to the IE games (and, yes, I know that's exactly what they kickstarted to be), for me to really consider this a candidate to join the all time greats. 

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I agree. I was very underwhelmed and confused. I was sure there would be some big twist or sudden realization that just made everything fall into place but it never came. It was kind of a mess, to be honest.

 

The final dungeon was not exciting at all. Definitely agree with you there, too. Well, there really weren't any epic dungeons in the entire game, except the one under the stronghold. 

 

Maybe we'll get a more exciting plot and bigger dungeons in the expansion(s). :)

 

 

The game doesn't do epic dungeons well on higher difficulties. You attrition too fast. They'd have to sprinkle in way more resting kits. Or you'd be leaving a dungeon every level or so to grab more kits.

 

 

Yea, I was worried about that when I read about the resting limit (per camping equipment) before the game came out. : / 

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Did we all play the same game? There was a big reveal that made it all come into place, two of them.

 

Spoilers here.

 

 

 

 

 

First: The whole situation is Woedica making a power play. The Saints War was Eothas trying to stop this plan before it got going. Magran stepped in at the end, trying to take Eothas' slice of cake for herself.

 

Second: The gods themselves are just constructions designed to create peace and stability. Thaos doesn't give a damn about Woedica, and this entire war for supremacy is just theatre put on for the benefit of the Kith. Thaos' ultimate aim is to end all chaos, and using this God-construct as a tool to do so. However, what was only said briefly is the whole game is about "gods" and belief. Even Iovara holds a god: choice. Every character is defined by their god, whether or not that god is a god at all (or if any of the gods are).

 

As per the ending itself? Baldur's gate had a short video, showing the Bhaalspawn conflict was far from over, but most obsidian games have an epilogue telling you how your travels and choices changed the world. Why would this have something else?

How does that even make sense?

 

Gods that are not real but have godly powers?

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Did we all play the same game? There was a big reveal that made it all come into place, two of them.

 

Spoilers here.

 

 

 

 

 

First: The whole situation is Woedica making a power play. The Saints War was Eothas trying to stop this plan before it got going. Magran stepped in at the end, trying to take Eothas' slice of cake for herself.

 

Second: The gods themselves are just constructions designed to create peace and stability. Thaos doesn't give a damn about Woedica, and this entire war for supremacy is just theatre put on for the benefit of the Kith. Thaos' ultimate aim is to end all chaos, and using this God-construct as a tool to do so. However, what was only said briefly is the whole game is about "gods" and belief. Even Iovara holds a god: choice. Every character is defined by their god, whether or not that god is a god at all (or if any of the gods are).

 

As per the ending itself? Baldur's gate had a short video, showing the Bhaalspawn conflict was far from over, but most obsidian games have an epilogue telling you how your travels and choices changed the world. Why would this have something else?

How does that even make sense?

 

Gods that are not real but have godly powers?

 

 

What's the term god mean anyways? Is there a power level qualifier? Be X powerful and you get the be a god?

 

a god is just what humans decide a god is

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OK, I am going to stop quoting otherwise this thread will be 90% the same wall of text.

 

For the sake of argument, let's define god as a being with supernatural powers. Let us also define false gods as beings with no supernatural power posing as gods.

 

Now, the gods in the game do have supernatural powers. 

 

Then the game says they are false gods, created by men (or kith, whatever).

 

Illogical. 

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OK, I am going to stop quoting otherwise this thread will be 90% the same wall of text.

 

For the sake of argument, let's define god as a being with supernatural powers. Let us also define false gods as beings with no supernatural power posing as gods.

 

Now, the gods in the game do have supernatural powers. 

 

Then the game says they are false gods, created by men (or kith, whatever).

 

Illogical. 

 

:p wizards have supernatural powers. Are they gods?

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OK, I am going to stop quoting otherwise this thread will be 90% the same wall of text.

 

For the sake of argument, let's define god as a being with supernatural powers. Let us also define false gods as beings with no supernatural power posing as gods.

 

Now, the gods in the game do have supernatural powers. 

 

Then the game says they are false gods, created by men (or kith, whatever).

 

Illogical. 

 

:p wizards have supernatural powers. Are they gods?

 

Did the Eth-guys (whoever Thaos people were, forgot the spelling) actually CREATE the "Gods" we see ingame, or did they just formally establish that threshold of power/qualification, and use it to funnel belief into a single pantheon rather than a mob of entities with "@Godmail.com" as their e-mail address?

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Did we all play the same game? There was a big reveal that made it all come into place, two of them.

 

Spoilers here.

 

 

 

 

 

First: The whole situation is Woedica making a power play. The Saints War was Eothas trying to stop this plan before it got going. Magran stepped in at the end, trying to take Eothas' slice of cake for herself.

 

Second: The gods themselves are just constructions designed to create peace and stability. Thaos doesn't give a damn about Woedica, and this entire war for supremacy is just theatre put on for the benefit of the Kith. Thaos' ultimate aim is to end all chaos, and using this God-construct as a tool to do so. However, what was only said briefly is the whole game is about "gods" and belief. Even Iovara holds a god: choice. Every character is defined by their god, whether or not that god is a god at all (or if any of the gods are).

 

As per the ending itself? Baldur's gate had a short video, showing the Bhaalspawn conflict was far from over, but most obsidian games have an epilogue telling you how your travels and choices changed the world. Why would this have something else?

 

This! Very much so. 

 

Also, one thing that the game did that I quite liked was that it gave you several reasons to chase Thaos, and you actually tell other NPCs why you're doing it. Could be because you wanted to save Dyrwood, could be because you're going crazy and you want to prevent that, could be because you want to know more about your past, could be because Thaos crossed you and now you're pissed off. Me, I spent enough time questing that I came to like the people of Dyrwood, and decided I wanted to help them out. I took the ending that Hylea wanted me to do, and that felt good. But I could just as easily roll up a new character who doesn't care about Dyrwood and just wants to be free of his curse, and then beating Thaos is satisfying for a different reason.

 

I didn't take those companion epilogues as final, either (except one or two). Most of them seemed to be about what they did immediately after the events of the game, but that's not to say they couldn't appear in a future title that's set a few years later.

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Unfortunately, it is. Maybe I have just played too much games like this. Whole game felt average - no fresh ideas, too much micromanagement, many unlogical situations. I can see that Obsidian did their best, its a good game, but I grew tired of it near the end, and the ending did not represent all my efforts (Hard difficulty, completed all quests). It was just... pictures with descriptions, which everyone gets. No hidden secret solutions. Too many questions were asked without any answers. Planescape Torment had only one question, and it was amazing that it did not had any answer, but this game just overused this... Anyway, I really do hope that others had find this game epic.

Disagree with this on a couple points. For one, I found two different secret solutions that came up after I'd jumped into the prison.

 

[spoilers]

Got propositioned by both Wael and by Skaen later on. Was talking with a buddy of mine who beat the game last night, and he didn't get either of those options. I'm still not sure what I did differently.

 

I also think there is one single question in this game - they just don't spell it out for you like PST did. It's funny because I think you identified it without realizing it. If you look at all the companions, Thaos, Lady Webb, the Engwithans, Iovara, even the player character, they all have questions they're asking, as you pointed out, and they're mostly different questions, but what they have in common is they can't find answers for them. You're looking at that as an overuse of PST's open-ended question idea, when I think it's turning it on its head, asking the costs of questions like that. 

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To Thaos we were just another peon.  To Sarevok we were some mofuggin kin who just wrecked all his plans and needed to be murdered ASAP. To Irenicus we were some mofuggin bhaalspawn who killed his sister and had the last part of the soul he needs.

 

It would've been nice if the final moments gave a little more thought to the life in progress and didn't dedicate the climax 100% to events that we had very little to do with.  The present life was trivialized by the previous life's story. 

 

Interesting writing style as far as role playing goes, probably would've benefited from Thaos having a bigger presence / making it more personal.

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To Thaos we were just another peon.  To Sarevok we were some mofuggin kin who just wrecked all his plans and needed to be murdered ASAP. To Irenicus we were some mofuggin bhaalspawn who killed his sister and had the last part of the soul he needs.

 

It would've been nice if the final moments gave a little more thought to the life in progress and didn't dedicate the climax 100% to events that we had very little to do with.  The present life was trivialized by the previous life's story. 

 

Interesting writing style as far as role playing goes, probably would've benefited from Thaos having a bigger presence / making it more personal.

The player doesn't choose to be related to sarevok, to kill Irenicus' sister, or to be a bhaalspawn. Those are all equivalent to past life stories since they happen before the game's events. Sure, they happened in the same lifetime, but in terms of player agency there is no meaningful distinction. Also true of TNO in Torment - all backstory told through past lives that define a relationship with the final boss. (You also don't get much face time with TTO in Torment, either, come to think of it...)

 

Not that I wouldn't have loved me some more Thaos, but I thought it was nice that for once the plot wasn't "bad guy wants to hunt down and kill the player because he's special." In fact in your early run ins with him, he seems to recognize you and maybe show mercy? That was my read, anyway. The real antagonist for most of the game is the player's own awakened soul. So it's more hero vs. self if anything.

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Did we all play the same game? There was a big reveal that made it all come into place, two of them.

 

Spoilers here.

 

 

 

 

 

First: The whole situation is Woedica making a power play. The Saints War was Eothas trying to stop this plan before it got going. Magran stepped in at the end, trying to take Eothas' slice of cake for herself.

 

Second: The gods themselves are just constructions designed to create peace and stability. Thaos doesn't give a damn about Woedica, and this entire war for supremacy is just theatre put on for the benefit of the Kith. Thaos' ultimate aim is to end all chaos, and using this God-construct as a tool to do so. However, what was only said briefly is the whole game is about "gods" and belief. Even Iovara holds a god: choice. Every character is defined by their god, whether or not that god is a god at all (or if any of the gods are).

 

As per the ending itself? Baldur's gate had a short video, showing the Bhaalspawn conflict was far from over, but most obsidian games have an epilogue telling you how your travels and choices changed the world. Why would this have something else?

How does that even make sense?

 

Gods that are not real but have godly powers?

 

They're real, but they're not gods. They're like a super version of those spectres or animats you see walking around. They're constructs which feed and grow powerful from soul energy, which their followers willingly feed them and thus entrench their position. That's why Woedica doesn't like Animancy: because she's a product of animancy. That's how they were made and that's their Achilles' heel. 

 

I mean, the real hint should have come much earlier; how many gods do you know can be killed?

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To Thaos we were just another peon.  To Sarevok we were some mofuggin kin who just wrecked all his plans and needed to be murdered ASAP. To Irenicus we were some mofuggin bhaalspawn who killed his sister and had the last part of the soul he needs.

 

It would've been nice if the final moments gave a little more thought to the life in progress and didn't dedicate the climax 100% to events that we had very little to do with.  The present life was trivialized by the previous life's story. 

 

Interesting writing style as far as role playing goes, probably would've benefited from Thaos having a bigger presence / making it more personal.

The player doesn't choose to be related to sarevok, to kill Irenicus' sister, or to be a bhaalspawn. Those are all equivalent to past life stories since they happen before the game's events. Sure, they happened in the same lifetime, but in terms of player agency there is no meaningful distinction. Also true of TNO in Torment - all backstory told through past lives that define a relationship with the final boss. (You also don't get much face time with TTO in Torment, either, come to think of it...)

 

Not that I wouldn't have loved me some more Thaos, but I thought it was nice that for once the plot wasn't "bad guy wants to hunt down and kill the player because he's special." In fact in your early run ins with him, he seems to recognize you and maybe show mercy? That was my read, anyway. The real antagonist for most of the game is the player's own awakened soul. So it's more hero vs. self if anything.

 

So.... why do we need to kill Thaos?

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To Thaos we were just another peon.  To Sarevok we were some mofuggin kin who just wrecked all his plans and needed to be murdered ASAP. To Irenicus we were some mofuggin bhaalspawn who killed his sister and had the last part of the soul he needs.

 

It would've been nice if the final moments gave a little more thought to the life in progress and didn't dedicate the climax 100% to events that we had very little to do with.  The present life was trivialized by the previous life's story. 

 

Interesting writing style as far as role playing goes, probably would've benefited from Thaos having a bigger presence / making it more personal.

 

The player doesn't choose to be related to sarevok, to kill Irenicus' sister, or to be a bhaalspawn. Those are all equivalent to past life stories since they happen before the game's events. Sure, they happened in the same lifetime, but in terms of player agency there is no meaningful distinction. Also true of TNO in Torment - all backstory told through past lives that define a relationship with the final boss. (You also don't get much face time with TTO in Torment, either, come to think of it...)

Not that I wouldn't have loved me some more Thaos, but I thought it was nice that for once the plot wasn't "bad guy wants to hunt down and kill the player because he's special." In fact in your early run ins with him, he seems to recognize you and maybe show mercy? That was my read, anyway. The real antagonist for most of the game is the player's own awakened soul. So it's more hero vs. self if anything.

So.... why do we need to kill Thaos?

Theoretically you don't. You're chasing him to get him to tell you what he knows about your past. The problem is that 1, he refuses to tell you and you can't find out what you need to know without killing him and getting the answers directly from his soul, and 2, by the time you get to him, you've learned too much and now he's decided to kill you.

 

You can approach him with peaceful intentions if you want. He's just such a jerk that he won't accept that or help you out.

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Just finished the game and I have to agree, the ending was somewhat unfulfilling. But I largely blame myself for this, as for example I didn't finish any of the companion arcs.

 

I think part of the problem may be that this game has a somewhat narrow scope. You're really only dealing with one country, and don't have that "save the world" feeling that we've grown accustomed too.

But from what I've learned about Obsidian, they always seem to put more focus on personal stories than the grand, epic ones.

 

Of course the presentation is also somewhat reserved.

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Save the world is a boring story.

 

In a save the world plot, you know from the start about the outcome of the story. The world will be saved. Why? Otherwise the story ends (due to lack of world). Therefore, while the plot should have the highest stakes (literally everything is on the line), there are no stakes at all. Because failure isn't a viable outcome for the story, you know they won't fail. World trotting save the world plots also fall apart because they haven't the luxury to have any real depth because they have to detail a wide number of locales.

 

But there hasn't been any obsidian/black isle game I can think of where the fate of the world lay in the balance. Maybe Fallout 1? Arcanum was a save the world plot, but Baldur's Gate, P:T, Icewind Dale, Fallout 2 and NV all had regional plots, where you were saving a handful of communities. Most of these games have stakes that are more personal than global. It's about getting revenge and answers more often than it is staving off certain destruction.

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Just finished, here are my thoughts:

 

1) Check all the little ash corpses as you approach the Thaos fight. One contains three rings specifically designed to protect you from movement impairing effects. HINT HINT.

 

2) Eder and Fighters are awesome. I was playing Trial of Iron, and the end of the fight? Yeah, every character went down except Eder. I think a glitch with my barb contributed though as Thaos constantly got hit with the Sicken effect from the Barb's passive from when he stands still; his corpse was still triggering the effect. I was watching that final fight between Eder and Thaos thinking "fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu I'm gonna lose at the very end omggggggggggg." NOPE, Eder ****ing did it. Slow, but he did it. My next playthrough will DEFINITELY be a Fighter after that amazing performance.

 

3) I don't think the ending narrative is lacking. It was perhaps a tad unoriginal in that it tackled questions that've been explored a dozen times over and holy hell I'm not looking forward to the religious debates we can expect to see on these forums when more people finish, but the narrative itself was perfectly solid. The narrative wasn't disappointing. Having said that....

 

 

4) I think what people are disappointed in is the length of the game itself. It's much shorter than expected, and the scope of areas you have influence over is limited aswell. Compare how this ending was done to New Vegas. Both are identical in style, showing slides that tell you what became of different people and communities based on your actions. But while New Vegas had 29 slides that referred to 8 companions, 5 communities and multiple factions/groups, Pillars is much smaller, with your journey basically effecting three towns and any companions you traveled with. Maybe I just did a really sucky job of making any changes and thus my ending was short, but yeah....the impact you had felt quite small and forgettable.

 

 

 

 

 

Overall, there is a degree of disappointment I have, but I believe that disappointment has more to do with the realization that the game is smaller than I expected it to be, not with the ending not delivering. I think if there had actually been more content as filler (yes I'm actually asking for filler content, go figure), the game would've felt more satisfying at the end, both cause there'd be more towns to cover and cause the content just feels limited in scope. It's solid content, don't get me wrong, it's just kinda....compact. :D

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"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

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I got 63 hours out of the game, Josh Sawyer promised me 60 - I could've added a few more hours if I'd completed a few more quests and read through all the supplementary material in my journal.  Not to mention touching souls ;)

 

1.  The end game can't be a giant tremendous dungeon crawl because: A.) you're trapped there, you literally can't get out.  You don't want your players to be absolutely boned and stuck down there if they are unable to complete the game due to a very long, difficult, dungeon crawl leading into the final confrontation.  B.) this fits in similar length to *most* end game scenarios - Fallout 1, Arcanum, Baldurs Gate 1's "maze" - the only difference being the fight outside the church, etc etc.  Even Torment's endgame is fairly similar in length and nature.  You want the anticipation of the final confrontation to build, but you don't want to wear your trapped players down to the point where they can't finish the game. 

 

2.  The Thaos fight is meant to be hard, and there are plenty of things in the bodies that give you some ability to ward this off - I had no idea what I was in for going into the final fight, and the only thing that knocked out several of my party members was actual damage being dealt - purely because I saw them handing me all these resistence items and I assumed it would behoove me to use them, given that it was the end of the game - no reason to give me all that if it'd be useless, unless the devs are just evil people who were trying to lead me to certain death lol. 

 

3.  The ending slides are what I expected - what more could they have done?  The only thing I'd like perhaps would be screenshots of how the places have changed or maybe more robust cards - a la fallout 1 perhaps with the images showing somewhat clearly what happened a bit better. 

 

They also said, playing only crit-path you could probably complete the game in 14 hours with a bit of luck and so forth, they wanted to provide options to people based on how much or how little side-questing they wanted to do. 

 

Maybe I just approached the game with a more pessimistic outlook.   They had a, by modern standards, very small budget.  I suspected the game would be roughly the same size and length of BG1 (without ToTSC) - and I was, I think, about on target I think, similar levels of content and so forth.   I was very pleased with what I got out of it, and Obsidian should be commended for what they made with, by industry standards, such an infinitesimally small budget, there have been legit terrible RPGs made in the last few years with budgets well over a factor of ten from what Obsidian had to work with.  Not to mention the actual length of the game - A complete play through of Mass Effect 1 for example is decidedly shorter than what I got out of this game, and it goes without saying that they spent well over 5 million on that game lol.   

 

On the whole I'm very pleased - I was really worried to be honest going into the ending "don't screw this up" was an insidious little worm in the back of my mind - and they did not.  Plus it seems the title cards aren't bugged out!  It seems like my choices actually mattered which gives it an edge on several previous interplay releases - where the ending cards are still bugged to this day (were never fixed lol). 

Edited by Gallenger
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