These streamers are comically bad

[LadyCrimson]

Finally, I'm of the opinion that games like Pillars of Eternity just don't do video particularly well.

I haven't watched any twitch/videos, but I agree with this statement. There's often a large learning curve for the player to boot, even if one is familiar with general concepts of such games. Especially if one hasn't played one in a while.

 

Also, live and blind streaming is quite different from something like most YouTube Let's Plays.

[Luckmann]

I think someone somewhere owes me a coin or two, I'm pretty sure I won a bet about noobs, reviewers (or "streamers") and Engagement.

 

What I've mainly seen is:

 

1. They trigger engagement attacks frequently.

2. They don't understand the health/endurance mechanic because they don't pay enough attention to the help tips explaining it.

3. The stash, lock picks and other items for scripted interactions are going in there and you can't use them if they are in there, causing issues and confusion.

4. Lack of Stealth/Mechanics understanding.

5. Not understanding the importance of switching weapons for certain encounters if they are ineffective.

 

Anyway, a lot of above can be learned as you play the game but this is just the most common stuff I've seen.

 

To be fair though, there's a lot of things in PoE that are very counter-intuitive especially compared to how things usually are in RPG:s. But yeah, this is pretty accurate.

[Azureblaze]

 

To be fair though, there's a lot of things in PoE that are very counter-intuitive especially compared to how things usually are in RPG:s. But yeah, this is pretty accurate.

 

Yeah, I think they could have spent a bit more time on the "Tutorial tool-tips" - Perhaps some highlights / animations or even little videos built in to explain -- as long as they can be disabled by those that don't need them, I think it's better having them than not to help those that need it. It's hand-holding, but not a whole lot of people read manuals these days anymore.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Azureblaze

[Corto81]

The only thing this video proves is that the mechanics aren't explained very well to new players. 

 

Agreed.

 

Both the disengagement and the endurance/health thing are very unintuitive and unnecessary complex to new players.

 

Even after all this time, I have no idea why they didn't do something like Attack of Opportunity and "normal" health with limited Camp supplies - it would've worked just we well, if not better, and it would've been much simpler.

[Dorky88]

I personally love the endurance health system. There is a lot less save scumming involved

if someone drops during a fight for one. And you can continue going even after a though fight. 
It has to be said that the protagonist of other IE games were borderline narcoleptic considering

how much they rested. 

[Sedrefilos]

Haven't seen the OP's linked videos, but:

The problem is the fad about streaming and youtubing imo.

Many people with enough money and time to kill buy games that they heard about due to the momentary hype and show off themselves playing them. Most of the time they have no idea what they are going to play; they just start the game and "whatever".

 

One, then, wants to check out about a game, say before they buy it, and falls into numerous failed playthroughs stuffed with misinformation.

Sometimes I catch myself watching a game for the first time and understanding more that the person who's playing it.

That's BS.

[Zwiebelchen]

Yahtzee Croshaw is also not a bitter old guy that talks a mile a minute and hates every game ever.

 

And that's why I sympathize with him.

Everyone who watches Yahtzee knows the meta behind his reviews: If he talks story and gameplay longer than 30% of the video, it's a good game.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[budyn]

Yeah tho i dont understand one thing, if someone wants to see comedy, he choose to watch comedy.But if someone wanna see gameplay, game review, or 'game streaming overall' he goes for twitch, and what he gets is mostly people who have no clue or will to concentrate on the game and play it in propper matter, obviously sometimes we want to watch funny **** and stuff.But its like playing basketball on some friendly tourneys and making a fool of yourself every time you get the ball , while people who came there are watching.

I see it like that: If you're going to stream, you have to bring some fun into it, but mostly you want to show the game itself, cause thats what people came here for.And i atleast dont like to watch idiots who cant understand mechanics, read game descriptions, and overall play this game like my grandma would ( tho she would prolly THINK, while doing so ).

[PromisedPain]

I don't really mind if they're bad at the game, since I don't have a superiority complex. It's just a game - let them have fun playing it.

Edited March 24, 2015 by PromisedPain

[Luckmann]

 

 

To be fair though, there's a lot of things in PoE that are very counter-intuitive especially compared to how things usually are in RPG:s. But yeah, this is pretty accurate.

 

Yeah, I think they could have spent a bit more time on the "Tutorial tool-tips" - Perhaps some highlights / animations or even little videos built in to explain -- as long as they can be disabled by those that don't need them, I think it's better having them than not to help those that need it. It's hand-holding, but not a whole lot of people read manuals these days anymore.

 

 

While that is certainly true too, I was also thinking about such things as Low-Resolve Paladins and hyperintelligent Barbarians, armoured, armed monks, unstealthy and unbackstabby rogues, etc. That's hard to do in an in-game tutorial.

 

But they definitely, definitely should've worked a lot more with the game texts and explanations. The system is pretty forgiving for mistakes in a lot of ways, but if you want to get into it in any way, it's dense as a mother****er.

[Mamoulian War]

Well, I've watched yesterday few seconds of PCgamer stream and Escapist stream on Twitch, and I was not very impressed by what I have seen. Actually the Escapist one was more "professional" and the guy tried to kite a little bit, but still it looked mostly like Zerg tactics

 

There was one more guy with beard, who played the game like he knew, what he was doing, but I rather turned off the stream, so I will not spoil much game for me.

[Zwiebelchen]

Yeah tho i dont understand one thing, if someone wants to see comedy, he choose to watch comedy.But if someone wanna see gameplay, game review, or 'game streaming overall' he goes for twitch, and what he gets is mostly people who have no clue or will to concentrate on the game and play it in propper matter, obviously sometimes we want to watch funny **** and stuff.But its like playing basketball on some friendly tourneys and making a fool of yourself every time you get the ball , while people who came there are watching.

I see it like that: If you're going to stream, you have to bring some fun into it, but mostly you want to show the game itself, cause thats what people came here for.And i atleast dont like to watch idiots who cant understand mechanics, read game descriptions, and overall play this game like my grandma would ( tho she would prolly THINK, while doing so ).

 

That's because people who watch LPs don't watch for the game, but for entertainment. It's a general misconception that Let's Plays or Twitch channels are about the games.

 

That's also why the popular Twitch/LPers use different styles of casting. Some are more serious, bringing in philosophy and discussions about politics and recent events, some are making fun of the games they play (and mostly play trash games like Goat simulator) or just constantly do bad puns. Then there's also those that just like to show off their cleavage. And then there's PewDiePie. This one is an exception. I don't know why anyone would watch PewDiePie except for masochistic tendencies. This guy is just outright annoying and absolutely not funny.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Lady Evenstar]

I personally love the endurance health system. There is a lot less save scumming involved

if someone drops during a fight for one. And you can continue going even after a though fight. 

It has to be said that the protagonist of other IE games were borderline narcoleptic considering

how much they rested. 

And you don't think that imperfectly virtuous tactics were part of what made them so popular? And that many folks who supported the notion of a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate may not have been interested in dense and obscure? I really hope they've not drained away the fun in an effort to make us play "properly."

[Coaxmetal]

What I've mainly seen is:

 

1. They trigger engagement attacks frequently.

2. They don't understand the health/endurance mechanic because they don't pay enough attention to the help tips explaining it.

3. The stash, lock picks and other items for scripted interactions are going in there and you can't use them if they are in there, causing issues and confusion.

4. Lack of Stealth/Mechanics understanding.

5. Not understanding the importance of switching weapons for certain encounters if they are ineffective.

 

Anyway, a lot of above can be learned as you play the game but this is just the most common stuff I've seen.

 Does a completed bestiary tell you a weapon is ineffective or more accurately the type of weapon, blunt, pierce, magic etc? 

[ryukenden]

I saw this stream of self proclaimed IE veteran. So he played on hard. But his strategy made me pulled my hair out. The shades keep wiping him. He come back later with a new party member(eder) but still can't beat them. I told him many times to use knockdown but he keeps ignoring and focus on his mages. Finally after kill one shade, he attack with the only few abilities remaining. Knockdown but i don't think he is paying attention. Well knockdown work and temporary disable it. He finally read my comment and cast knockdown when its knocked again. °>.<°. Next groups of shade, next encounter. Continues to ignore using it. He think only mages can do anything... Bad.

Edited March 24, 2015 by ryukenden

[Zwiebelchen]

I have to say that, while at first I was against the endurance/health system, I can see it's benefits now and I'm glad that Obsidian didn't drop the idea after the initial feedback.

 

It just fixes a couple of problems RPGs in the past had in an elegant way:

1) mistakes in battle being extremely punshing due to permadeath mechanics

2) mistakes in battle having absolutely no consequences due to characters magically being revived after the battle is over

3) Major plotholes caused by the existence of ressurection means. I call it the "Phoenix Downer" ...

 

I think PoE found a sweet spot here, combining the auto-res mechanics of modern RPGs with the permadeath mechanics of CRPGs.

Especially with an Ironman mode in place, it's a neccessity that there's a "soft death" mechanic in place.

[morhilane]

 

What I've mainly seen is:

 

1. They trigger engagement attacks frequently.

2. They don't understand the health/endurance mechanic because they don't pay enough attention to the help tips explaining it.

3. The stash, lock picks and other items for scripted interactions are going in there and you can't use them if they are in there, causing issues and confusion.

4. Lack of Stealth/Mechanics understanding.

5. Not understanding the importance of switching weapons for certain encounters if they are ineffective.

 

Anyway, a lot of above can be learned as you play the game but this is just the most common stuff I've seen.

 Does a completed bestiary tell you a weapon is ineffective or more accurately the type of weapon, blunt, pierce, magic etc? 

 

 

You don't even need the bestiary, the in-combat tooltip over a creature will give you the information after a few attacks.

[Yaz]

What I find more baffling than some people playing bad is seeing a couple of twitch streamers with about 30 followers.

Why they got review copies I have no idea.

 

Many streamers belong to streamer groups.  I can't be 100% sure this is the case with this game but often publishers will give multiple keys to the main person in that group to distribute as they see fit (within certain guidelines) and that person then distributes keys within their group or to other streamers they are friends with.  This is often how streamers with much lower viewerships get these keys. 

 

Personally I have no problem with that if you're going to use streamers to market your game.  Much better to give chance of little guys to climb up  the ladder since often getting to be one of the first people streaming a new game is how people finally climb out of obscurity on twitch.

[Stun]

I wonder if there is a tutorial popup about things like engagement etc.?

I think this game has something even better than that. The "enable developer commentary" option in the gameplay menu screen.

 

I've been avoiding these LP streams, so I have no idea if these streamers are actually using it in their games, but I'm assuming that this is what it's there for. To teach the uninitiated. But I could be wrong.

[Tartantyco]

No, the commentary is like DVD commentaries, or the Half-Life 2 commentaries. Developers talking about the development of the game and specific areas.

[Justinian]

Yea, the dev commentary isn't for tutorial purposes.

 

In the bits of the streams I've seen there were tutorial popups about pretty basic things like pause, combat and even dialogue choices, so I would be surprised if there wasn't anything about engagement mentioned. Or maybe that's an "advanced" feature that's only in the manual.

[Tartantyco]

You get a tutorial message about engagement when you fight the wolf, your first combat encounter. Most streamers I've seen don't read it.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Tartantyco

[Justinian]

Yea you're right. However the tutorial popups do come and go quite quickly - in one of the streams the engagement popup is almost immediately replaced by one about crits. You almost need to go back through your combat log to read them. I think a proper tutorial like in BG1 or 2 would have been better.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Justinian

[Veevoir]

OR annoying pop up that comes back each fight until clicked on "dont show me this again ever".

Those people do not deserve the FUN that is engagement system, anyway!*



^{*Personally, I could be even semi-fine with it as long as disengage attacks came with a large malus to accuracy, making them a possibility, not an instant LOL punishment die die die for having fun the way JES did not intend it to.}

Edited March 24, 2015 by Veevoir

[Stun]

^Or if they just did normal hit damage.