Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Ranger Status - Pre Launch


  • Please log in to reply
85 replies to this topic

#41
rheingold

rheingold

    (8) Warlock

  • Members
  • 1085 posts
  • Location:Cape Town
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Look, it's simple. Ranger are very high maintenance because of the pet. If that's fine with you and you manage it proper, he'll out DPS other DPS classes by far, apart from maybe the Rogue (which is very high maintenance as well) and Monk (not only very conditional, but also high maintenance).
Fighters are very stable, which is their strength really. They (and barbarians, and paladins) are perfect low maintenance melee DPS, you click on a mob, and they'll keep going without you even needing to look at them.
 
As a note, pets actually do pretty decent damage on their own, no idea where that idea came from. And not combining ranger with his pet is just silly, they are one class.[/quote]

This
  • jones092201@gmail.com and sku like this

#42
Gromnir

Gromnir

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7730 posts
  • Location:Sleeping in my office.
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 
As a note, pets actually do pretty decent damage on their own, no idea where that idea came from. And not combining ranger with his pet is just silly, they are one class.[/quote]

 

on this point we agree... kinda.  am not certain why some folks, when considering the damage potential o' the ranger, ignore the animal companion's damage.  that is wrong.  

 

even so, is becoming obvious that the ranger don't work very well as presented.  given the features o' the class, and obsidian commentary, one would expect the ranger role to be a ranged weapon "heavy-hitter." this is not a particular viable build at the moment, and there still appear to be quirks with the animal companions.   

 

HA! Good Fun!



#43
dukefx

dukefx

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 341 posts
 

So...you compare two classes, remove 50% of what defines one of them, and decide that the other is obviously better?  :)

 

"Look, I just compared fighter and wizard DPS and wizard just plain sucks! I mean, I didn't factor in situational stuff like wizard spells but if you count on that, then you need to count the fact that they need to rest for them"

 

Look, it's simple. Ranger are very high maintenance because of the pet. If that's fine with you and you manage it proper, he'll out DPS other DPS classes by far, apart from maybe the Rogue (which is very high maintenance as well) and Monk (not only very conditional, but also high maintenance).

Fighters are very stable, which is their strength really. They (and barbarians, and paladins) are perfect low maintenance melee DPS, you click on a mob, and they'll keep going without you even needing to look at them. It'll be slower, but that's the price to pay I guess and how it all brings "balance".

 

Same is true for tanking. Fighters (and Paladins) are very low maintenance tanks, who can't do anything else apart from a couple abilities. They won't kill anything, ever. Ranger tanks are very high maintenance tanks who, while slightly less well off than what Fighter and Paladin tanks can be, will actually kill what they tank, sometimes pretty fast while providing very nice (but again, high maintenance) utility via their pet.

If that doesn't matter for you, just go Paladin/Fighter. If that matters and you want to handle the maintenance, Ranger's a good pick.

 

As a note, pets actually do pretty decent damage on their own, no idea where that idea came from. And not combining ranger with his pet is just silly, they are one class.

 

 

I'm not even sure if we are playing the same game. Tell me... how is a pet high maintenance? You basically send your pet in just like you send in your fighter and play it exactly like a fighter, but it won't last as long as a fighter.

 

Edit: to answer your edit... pets have low damage due to lack of gear. You can equip your ranger to do decent damage, you can't do anything to boost your pet.


Edited by dukefx, 21 March 2015 - 10:14 AM.


#44
dunehunter

dunehunter

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2520 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Gold Backer
  • Fig Backer

Built my own heartorlan melee ranger, very solid build and soloable IMO.

 

Selected bear companion, it tanked a lot and due to the AI of the game, enemies will attack pet in priority. With stalker's link, swift and steady and minor threat from heartorlan, my ranger does tons of damages while my bear tanks a lot. Wonder why so many complaims that rangers are weak.


Edited by dunehunter, 21 March 2015 - 10:36 AM.


#45
mutonizer

mutonizer

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 307 posts

Rangers are high maintenance because of the pet mechanic, and you can't take their pet as a separate entity. 

1) No you don't treat them as a fighter, you treat them as an extension of the ranger and need to make sure that the pet and the ranger are always in tandem, unless you need the pet for something in case damage is not your priority. That means for 1 class, you need to manipulate 2 characters, that needs to be synchronized to be effective. They also take space, which can make things difficult to handle in tight areas. That's why I consider them high maintenance.

2) Pets lack power scaling in a sense, that's true and sadly is often the case with classes linked to pets. PoE seems pretty heavy on "itemsplozion" so that might become a factor at very high level (and in extensions, etc). Wouldn't be surprised however if at some point either items will get bonus that applies to pet AND user, or, even better, if ranger gained a slot to equip their pets. We can only judge with the level 4-8 content available so far and overall pet keep up (you gain talents, etc which make up for it I guess). No idea how anything will go after release, for any class really. I do agree it's an issue though.


Edited by mutonizer, 21 March 2015 - 10:36 AM.


#46
dukefx

dukefx

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 341 posts

Now there's something I can agree with, although I still don't consider pets high maintenance. Rogues and casters are high maintenance.
 
I've gone through my screenshots, fortunately I made a lot. The combat log pretty much speaks for itself.
 
Gear:
Ranger has one of the best bows: The Rain of Godagh Field (superb with +20% speed). This ranger build uses Swift Aim (I wanted to try that out because I usually go with VA when I test). No armor, therefore no recovery penalty.
Fighter has superb sabres with +0.5 crit damage. Leather armor with -30+16=-14% recovery penalty.
Both have +damage gloves
 
Stats: both have 19 might and 19 dex
 
Talents: both are specced for offense. The ranger has no Predator's Sense nor Merciless Companion, and no Vicious Companion either, so the pet could do slightly more damage, but then the ranger would do less.
 
And here's the combat log... it shows roughly the same interval. The ranger's is a bit longer because of stunning shots and the bear adding to the amount of lines. Note, that you see lines starting with "Bear" only twice and even then damage is very low.
 

Spoiler

 
Fighter's overall damage: 447
Ranger+pet's overall damage: 161
I'd need a much much longer combat log for statistics. The fighter probably got better rolls, but lets say a 2:1 damage ratio would be somewhat accurate.

 

I made so many suggestions to improve the ranger, but they were all ignored. I suggested something like 2 item slots for pets to customize them. So many have asked for better stats on pets. I've suggested shared stats i.e. the pet would benefit from the ranger's stats/gear; even half of it would be great. Josh just doesn't seem to care.

 

Edit: fixed typo


Edited by dukefx, 21 March 2015 - 11:31 AM.


#47
Odd Hermit

Odd Hermit

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 643 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Now there's something I can agree with, although I still don't consider pets high maintenance. Rogues and casters are high maintenance.
 
I've gone through my screenshots, fortunately I made a lot. The combat log pretty much speaks for itself.
 
Gear:
Ranger has one of the best bows: The Rain of Godagh Field (superb with +20% speed). This ranger build uses Swift Aim (I wanted to try that out because I usually go with VA when I test). No armor, therefore no recovery penalty.
Fighter has superb sabres with +0.5 crit damage. Leather armor with -30+16=-14% recovery penalty.
Both have +damage gloves
 
Stats: both have 19 might and 19 dex
 
Talents: both are specced for offense. The ranger has no Predator's Sense nor Merciless Companion, and no Vicious Companion either, so the pet could do slightly more damage, but then the ranger would do less.
 
And here's the combat log... it shows roughly the same interval. The ranger's is a bit longer because of stunning shots and the bear adding to the amount of lines. Note, that you see lines starting with "Bear" only twice and even then damage is very low.
 

 
Fighter's overall damage: 447
Ranger+pet's overall damage: 161
I'd need a much much longer combat log for statistics. The fighter probably got better rolls, but lets say a 2:1 damage ratio would be somewhat accurate.

 

I made so many suggestions to improve the ranger, but they were all ignored. I suggested something like 2 item slots for pets to customize them. So many have asked for better stats on pets. I've suggested shared stats i.e. the pet would benefit from the ranger's stats/gear; even half of it would be great. Josh just doesn't seem to care.

 

Edit: fixed typo

 

 

I think the problem here could be that you're using a bow. Bow's suck. And Swift Aim probably doesn't help.



#48
morhilane

morhilane

    Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1131 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

Edit: to answer your edit... pets have low damage due to lack of gear. You can equip your ranger to do decent damage, you can't do anything to boost your pet.

 

Ranger's pet get bonuses to damage, DR and accuracy on top of normal level increase (accuracy/defenses) every couple of levels to compensate for the lack of gear.


Edited by morhilane, 21 March 2015 - 12:05 PM.


#49
GreyZ

GreyZ

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 30 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Now there's something I can agree with, although I still don't consider pets high maintenance. Rogues and casters are high maintenance.
 
I've gone through my screenshots, fortunately I made a lot. The combat log pretty much speaks for itself.
 
Gear:
Ranger has one of the best bows: The Rain of Godagh Field (superb with +20% speed). This ranger build uses Swift Aim (I wanted to try that out because I usually go with VA when I test). No armor, therefore no recovery penalty.
Fighter has superb sabres with +0.5 crit damage. Leather armor with -30+16=-14% recovery penalty.
Both have +damage gloves
 
Stats: both have 19 might and 19 dex
 
Talents: both are specced for offense. The ranger has no Predator's Sense nor Merciless Companion, and no Vicious Companion either, so the pet could do slightly more damage, but then the ranger would do less.
 
And here's the combat log... it shows roughly the same interval. The ranger's is a bit longer because of stunning shots and the bear adding to the amount of lines. Note, that you see lines starting with "Bear" only twice and even then damage is very low.
  
Fighter's overall damage: 447
Ranger+pet's overall damage: 161
I'd need a much much longer combat log for statistics. The fighter probably got better rolls, but lets say a 2:1 damage ratio would be somewhat accurate.
 
I made so many suggestions to improve the ranger, but they were all ignored. I suggested something like 2 item slots for pets to customize them. So many have asked for better stats on pets. I've suggested shared stats i.e. the pet would benefit from the ranger's stats/gear; even half of it would be great. Josh just doesn't seem to care.
 
Edit: fixed typo

 
 
Sorry but you are comparing dual wielded sabers to a bow. That is a complete oranges to apples comparison, since you are much more comparing the weapon groups than the classes itself.
If we just wanna compare whatever loadout, then here I'll go with lvl 8 offensive dual saber specced fighter against a blunderbuss ranger, both solo:
 

fighter:

Spoiler

 

 

ranger (weapon swap):

Spoiler

 

ranger (no weapon swap):

Spoiler

 

End results? Fighter dies, Ranger wrecks the entire enemy party in less time than it takes the fighter to die if you weapon swap, and if you don't swap will still win the fight easily.

If you wanna argue that ranged weapons have poor sustained damage, then by all means, but the ranger class in itself isn't the culprit then.

And I really don't agree personally that all ranged weapons are subpar. Bow's are overall pretty meh, but Arbalests and Rifles? They're pretty damn good at gibbing people. And thanks to swiftaim the Ranger has by far the highest attack speed with those in the game aside of weaponset swapping.


Edited by GreyZ, 21 March 2015 - 12:40 PM.

  • dunehunter and illathid like this

#50
morhilane

morhilane

    Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1131 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

I think the problem here could be that you're using a bow. Bow's suck. And Swift Aim probably doesn't help.

 

A superb warbow shouldn't do that low damage though. It's about the same damage range as a saber so it should hit in the same range for the same might, quality and damage multipliers and it's clearly not doing so in those screenshots.



#51
mutonizer

mutonizer

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 307 posts

The OP got his answer by now I think.

 

Let's agree to disagree on the rest and make out our own party compositions after release :)


Edited by mutonizer, 21 March 2015 - 12:27 PM.


#52
Whipstitch

Whipstitch

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 115 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Yeah, I mean, as long as you don't make a party of 6 Rangers, you should be fine in terms of class deficiencies, I suppose.


I actually kinda suspect that 6 rangers could work out better than some other underpowered builds combos given everyone would at least be on the same page. Arquebus Rangers are all burst and no sustained, but the Vicious Aim and Wounding Shot combo is hefty enough that many things won't be surviving the subsequent dot, so rangers are OK at gibbing things to open combat and then scraping out a win from there. What really hurts gun/arbalest rangers in mixed parties is that they still don't burst as hard as rogues nor do they provide enough debuffs that non-rogue melee characters sit up and notice, which makes it awful tough to recommend them over other classes.

Edited by Whipstitch, 21 March 2015 - 01:14 PM.


#53
wolfstriked

wolfstriked

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 110 posts
  • Deadfire Backer

 

My oh my fighter just doesn't sound right for a character that is just a tank and not good at dealing damage.Lineman sounds better to me and that took 5 seconds.Guards,shields etc,something better than fighter can give a better feel to what they actually do.

 

Fighters can be DPS as well, not a problem and afaik they are the only ones who can get weapon masteries.

 

 

 

 

Sounds interesting,thanks.



#54
Voss

Voss

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 758 posts

 

Now there's something I can agree with, although I still don't consider pets high maintenance. Rogues and casters are high maintenance.
 
I've gone through my screenshots, fortunately I made a lot. The combat log pretty much speaks for itself.
 
Gear:
Ranger has one of the best bows: The Rain of Godagh Field (superb with +20% speed). This ranger build uses Swift Aim (I wanted to try that out because I usually go with VA when I test). No armor, therefore no recovery penalty.
Fighter has superb sabres with +0.5 crit damage. Leather armor with -30+16=-14% recovery penalty.
Both have +damage gloves
 
Stats: both have 19 might and 19 dex
 
Talents: both are specced for offense. The ranger has no Predator's Sense nor Merciless Companion, and no Vicious Companion either, so the pet could do slightly more damage, but then the ranger would do less.
 
And here's the combat log... it shows roughly the same interval. The ranger's is a bit longer because of stunning shots and the bear adding to the amount of lines. Note, that you see lines starting with "Bear" only twice and even then damage is very low.
  
Fighter's overall damage: 447
Ranger+pet's overall damage: 161
I'd need a much much longer combat log for statistics. The fighter probably got better rolls, but lets say a 2:1 damage ratio would be somewhat accurate.
 
I made so many suggestions to improve the ranger, but they were all ignored. I suggested something like 2 item slots for pets to customize them. So many have asked for better stats on pets. I've suggested shared stats i.e. the pet would benefit from the ranger's stats/gear; even half of it would be great. Josh just doesn't seem to care.
 
Edit: fixed typo

 
 
Sorry but you are comparing dual wielded sabers to a bow. That is a complete oranges to apples comparison, since you are much more comparing the weapon groups than the classes itself.
If we just wanna compare whatever loadout, then here I'll go with lvl 8 offensive dual saber specced fighter against a blunderbuss ranger, both solo: 

 

:banghead:

You just did the same thing.  If you really want to compare classes rather than weapons, give them the same weapons.


  • dunehunter likes this

#55
dukefx

dukefx

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 341 posts

@Odd Hermit
Yes, bows do suck, but shouldn't the ranger be the ranged class who doesn't suck with a bow? Afaik the heavier weapons aren't that much better in the latest build either. I recall Sensuki mentioning they toned down Arbalests and co. As for Swift Aim vs Vicious Aim... neither is better. I went with VA almost always. The screenshots I dug up happened to have SA. Even the Ranger's name is New Swift Aim.

@GreyZ
I'll just print that out and stick it to the fridge door. Have a cookie!

@morhilane
They do... very little tho. That amount is clearly not enough.

@Voss
I gave them weapons that fall into the same category that they are supposed to be good with and built both classes as best I could (unlike GreyZ who deliberately made a horrible fighter... I didn't have enough skill points at level 12 to take utility skills like Clear Out, not to mention at level 8 LMAO). As for your idea of comparison... I never tried a ranged fighter, nor a melee ranger, but I imagine they'd be both weaker, as they are clearly the ranged class and the melee class.


Edited by dukefx, 21 March 2015 - 02:33 PM.


#56
morhilane

morhilane

    Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 1131 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

@Odd Hermit
Yes, bows do suck, but shouldn't the ranger be the ranged class who doesn't suck with a bow? Afaik the heavier weapons aren't that much better in the latest build either. I recall Sensuki mentioning they toned down Arbalests and co. As for Swift Aim vs Vicious Aim... neither is better. I went with VA almost always. The screenshots I dug up happened to have SA. Even the Ranger's name is New Swift Aim.

 

In your screenshot, the warbow damage makes no sense. You claim it was a superb warbow, well that's not what is shown in your screenshot. The warbow has about the same damage range as the saber, so it should output about the same damage per hits when the same damage multipliers are applied on it, not less than half of what the saber does like in your screenshot. To have the values showing up in your screenshots it would require the enemies to have about 30 DR against piercing (which they don't have). Looks like you stumbled upon a bug to me.



#57
Shevek

Shevek

    (8) Warlock

  • Members
  • 1164 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer

Rangers should NOT be a predominantly ranged class. Rangers are folks that walk around across far "ranges." Every famous fantasy ranger worth a damn is a melee fighter.


  • IndiraLightfoot and View619 like this

#58
View619

View619

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 575 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Rangers should NOT be a predominantly ranged class. Rangers are folks that walk around across far "ranges." Every famous fantasy ranger worth a damn is a melee fighter.

 

Yeah, it looks like people are forgetting that Rangers were never restricted to being archers before. Not sure why that would be true now.



#59
Voss

Voss

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 758 posts

@Voss
I gave them weapons that fall into the same category that they are supposed to be good with and built both classes as best I could (unlike GreyZ who deliberately made a horrible fighter... I didn't have enough skill points at level 12 to take utility skills like Clear Out, not to mention at level 8 LMAO). As for your idea of comparison... I never tried a ranged fighter, nor a melee ranger, but I imagine they'd be both weaker, as they are clearly the ranged class and the melee class.

You can build a totally non-melee fighter, at least at level 5.  (Disciplined Barrage, Offensive Talent, Confident Aim, Offensive Talent, Weapon Specialization)

Just because sabers and blunderbusses are in the Ruffian category doesn't mean they're comparable weapons.  The way to accurately compare is to set as many controls up as possible, not include extra variables that make the comparison more difficult.  Anything that is not derived from class should be exactly the same so you know where the differences are coming from. That you are imagining the results is exactly the point of testing. Test correctly and you won't have to guess.  You'll know. 


  • illathid and rheingold like this

#60
Sock

Sock

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 207 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I just ran through the beta on PotD with a tank ranger (Weapon and Shield, Hold the Line, Cautious Attack, and Bloody Slaughter, with Stalker's Link, Marked Prey, Swift Aim, the +AoE defense ranger ability)  and a 2H fighter in plate with mixed tank/dps talents: defender, wary defender, confident aim, weapon spec soldier, weapon focus soldier, weapon mastery soldier, bloody slaughter. 

 

The ranger was miles ahead of the fighter at first. In the Meredith fight, the ranger did 600 damage while the highest anyone else did was 150. The gap narrowed quickly afterwards, though, and the ranger began to balance out with everyone. The fighter, however, was starting to rise ahead towards the end. With the damage boosting abilities and relying on the DR from the plate + regen from constant recovery, the fighter was very heroic in action, although almost entirely passive. Managing the pet with the ranger was more enjoyable than watching the fighter fight. 

 

My ranger ended with around 110 deflection. while the fighter had 60. There were some cases where the fighter was worthless (wurms, who target reflexes and not deflection), but for most fights the fighter was a perfectly adequate tank for PotD, and the ranger and wolf were always there, ready to take **** out as a duo or split to provide coverage if the fighter went down. The ranger also served as a better tank in situations where the fighter didn't, such as the wurms.

 

I have also ran a build with a boreal dwarf  ranger with a rifle and a bear. I partnered her with a chanter, but her crit rate was obscene with stalker's link and the reload speed was respectable enough that I could just let her be passively. Very effective as a ranged nuker, but you needed to direct her based on what the pet was targeting. If the pet can't get to the juicy target you want to kill, then too bad. This is a downside for most traditional ranged characters who tend to benefit from free target choice. Still, the pet is an "okay" tank 1v1, but worthless in 1v2+. If the pet goes down, your DPS vanishes.

 

Interesting note: If your pet dies, and you have a paladin use reviving exhortation, you will still have the bonded grief penalty applied. -20 accuracy is a huge penalty to damage, but if you're using stalker's link then you're really down -40. That's why you CANNOT risk your pet, you have to play it safe. Unlike a tank ranger, a ranged ranger is entirely reliant on their accuracy to function in the group. A tank ranger can still tank even with crap accuracy. A ranged ranger can do nothing with crap accuracy. 

 

Rangers are capable members of the party, they just have to be babied like the rogue, just in a very different way.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users