How bad was that ending? (Spoiler alert)

[Wormerine]

11 hours ago, Lithaleon said:

Now, this being said, I have a bone to pick with the game. This game at it's core has been about Fantasy, Adventure,  Power, and Choices. The first and second game (for the most part) do a very good job of giving scratching all 4 of those itches. In the second game, you become THE HERALD OF BERATH (now that's a title right?). The scene on the docks where you can show the harbor master "what you are" is a scene that I will never forget. Now, tell me why, in a game that does such a good job with power scaling, and making you feel like you're the next best thing to a god, makes your power utterly insignificant in the end. You're the Watcher, with the Gods at your back, and you can't stop Eothas.

While i have a problem with the ending, it is more with „How” then with „what”.

No, Pillars has never been about fantasy, adventure, power and choices. The genre it comes from was about that, but PoEs have been subverting those expectations. 

While you do have a certain freedom your character has never been able to influence events of cosmic scale - you might have stopped Thanos, learn the truth about the nature of Gods, but there is nothing you can do about it. You can interact with kith, and you do act as a link between kith and gods, but you are never a Gods equal. Gods after all, be it good or bad, helpful or parasites are beings well beyond your understanding or power. 

yes, you are Herald of Berath, but that makes you a puppet. It limits your ability to make choice, not enhance it. While you might hold some level of influence over other kith, it is only because Berath allows you, or forces you to do it. You might have felt powerful if you willingly used Beraths power to scare those soldiers at the harbour. And you would feel powerless if you tried not to do it. It was Berath’s action made through you, whenever you will it, or not. 

Unfortunately for them, Gods ability to directly attack Eothas are limited, and what might scare random soldiers won’t make an impression on a massive statue of ADR inhabited by a god. And even the most mythic creatures you get to slay in the game, are merely mortal creatures or aspects of a god. Keep in mind what took to kill Eothas when he used a mortal body. Think of what would be required to destroy him in Deadfire. If volcano eruption and tsunami wasn’t enough... what can YOU do?

If you were able to challenge and defeat Eothas that would be very unlike PoE. However, the way it is handled is not ideal. Players to have certain expectations, and game doesn’t put a twist on them - just under-delivers on an expected finale. Meeting with Eothas would make for a nice epilogue, but not the climax of the game. 

[the_dog_days]

But they already established that you can't beat Eothas in the opening cut scene. Dude just walks by you and you nearly die. Sure, writers could've done some deus ex mechina to 'make you as powerful as a god', but that seems counter intuitive to what we already know about the gods and excludes the Watcher from being a possible protagonist in the next installment. Otherwise, the only way around this is to have a completely different primary conflict.

[daven]

I never even considered Eothas a 'bad guy'. It was more an event happening.

Actually, just typing that I was going to compare him to Sin in FFX. But you can and must defeat Sin for good. So it's not a good example... Maybe if we had an airship in Deadfire.

[Purudaya]

In case others haven't mentioned it, patch 5.0 adds dialogue (including an ongoing narrative with Woedica that unfolds alongside the main questline) which, among other things, explains what life was like before the wheel. 

Might be worth a second playthrough now that PoE2 is content complete

[Wormerine]

16 hours ago, Purudaya said:

Might be worth a second playthrough now that PoE2 is content complete

For me the biggest addition is giving reason to care for factions politics for characters without roleplaying political affiliations, and some additional insight into Gods' actions. 

[Vishmeister]

Lol I Completed the Game & even forgot what decisions i took !! That's something i'm Yet to do 
I Love a great thought provoking mentally challenging storylines & this reading all of your comments & reply made me not to play this & waste my time.
coz having Another MASS EFFECT 3 will seriously destroy my interest in Single play Story driven RPG games. lol 

Damn i hated mass effect 3 ending coz i was extremely overly Inside that story & taking care of companions & EARTH .. that's the moment i felt something in real life too in a way like i had power to change my social cycle my career choices .. my entire real life decisions ( TBH they all worked out in real life ) XD ... but Mass effect 3 really got me depression for 2 weeks.. 

If Deadfire even after all DLCs is the same thing with Eothas ( Aortas ) lol I'd tremendously hate the non-living chunk out of it. Although i love All the companions of both 
POE1 POE2 roster.. I just don't like Aloth pretty much every1 else to me is Guardians of Galaxy team..
Eder Hiravas Serefin ( Swabby ) Tekehu + Kanu ( damn those two would eat my ears Ekera lol ) vs Maia + Sagani. Meanwhile NEBULA = Pallagina ( Always Serious in everything ). ( God i love this team ) ~

Play it for the sake Great Funny Campaign with awesome World building from scratch .. Hell i found this world to be one of the best RPG made world.

1st is always gonna be The Witcher 2-3 ( all the DLCs + Gwent )
2nd it's a tie between Mass Effect 1-2-3 & StarCraft II Games 1-2-3 
3rd is Tie between Bioshock Series ( infinite timelines & multiverse of choices thing in the end, i gotta replay Bioshock infinite again... All i know i was extremely bonkers after finishing Bioshock 1-2 & infinite the feeling alone has my respect ) & DOOM Series With DOOM Eternal Lore having made almost like *Berserk* manga world.
^
i truly hoped POE 1-2 even with DLCs made a them memorable like these.. but yea Let's all return to wheel & think of what were gonna do with lives after ... COVID-****king-19.. 

[Boeroer]

Considering that you love that team it's surprising how profoundly you butcher their names.

[AeonsLegend]

The characters were meh, the story was meh. How on earth is the ending going to be wonderful? I thought it was pretty terrible as a whole. The only thing that keeps me going is the combat and class system. It's like Neverwinter Nights 2 (Also Obsidian lol). Great to theorycraft characters, but story and characters weren't particularly great. Although imo I like NWN2 a lot better than Deadfire. Especially MotB was great.

[Guest Ontarah]

This is another instance of more or less cathartic opinion dump for me as nobody I know in RL plays these games and I just sort of wanted the illusion of talking at people for a few minutes over the ending.  I just finished for the first time  Apologies, it will probably be long. 

I'm actually quite disappointed in this ending but not because I couldn't "stop" Eothas.  He's a god walking around in a Statue of Liberty sized statue.  Of course I was never going to be able to stop him, at least not without a McGuffin or some kind of Deus Ex Machina.

The issue I have with it is the same issue I had with the entirety of  POE which is that the entire story and everything in it are thematically on rails.   *Everything* in POE is narratively about a crisis of faith.  Every single party member is having a crisis of faith.  Dyrwood as a nation is having a crisis of faith over the Hollowborn and the fact that a god apparently wanted to invade their country.  Many of the subplots and side quests are about this too.  The big reveal about the gods at the end is mean to be a capstone experience prompting you the PC to have a crisis of faith about the meaning of life, the universe, and everything.    

This was exceedingly redundant and very often regressed into officious preachiness with the game clearly expecting that I should care way, way, way more about a particular crisis of faith than I really did because it was the thematically "correct" thing to do.  However, I thought the devs mostly did a good job of balancing the theme they were clearly trying to write, and the questions they were clearly trying to get you to consider, with the reality that this is an RPG which is ostensibly about character choice.  Player's might not react in ways the devs might prefer but they still more or less provided an outlet for that.  I was originally critical of the ending in POE because I thought they constrained your reaction to the big reveal to either sorrow, utter shock, or outrage when I wanted to express philosophical indifference. and stoicism.  However, in subsequent playthroughs and playing with dialogue options, I have somewhat backed off that opinion because you *can* push back against Iovara's smug certainty about the way the universe should go in a way that doesn't amount to being a petulant child engaging in denialism.

And certainly what you tell Aloth and Eder about what you think the reveal means has real variance both in consequences of what they decide to do and in philosophical takeaway.  At the end of POE, I can have a range of opinions or reactions about what the reality of the gods means and there's plausible ways to defend all of those positions given what you learn throughout the game.  

POEII takes that and goes "Nope, sorry, we've decided that the gods are all petulant, selfish children, a bunch of jacked up mortals who got too big for their britches, who are arbitrary tyrants entirely out for their own continuation who will do anything to mortals to further their own ends."

Even this I could sort of deal with because this is how a lot of pagan gods were.  Pagan gods did their own things and you *appeased* them at best.  If Poseidon wants to wash away your ship in a storm because he has some bigger agenda, he's just going to do that.   You can try to placate him with offerings or prayers but at the end of the day Poseidon's gonna Poseidon.  There's potentially a range of interesting and plausible ways that your as the PC could respond to that.  

The problem arises in that the game is thematically dedicated not just to the character of the gods but to a position that more or less amounts to "And no sane person would ever be okay with mortals as selfish, jacked up gods and *something* has to be done about it."    

The dedication to this theme ends up creating a cascading downstream series of paradoxes, inanities, and PC on rails type situations.  Just some of the questions I want to ask that the game gives me *no* way to ask because it would undermine the theme that the gods are all jerks who you should want to get rid of:

"If the gods are all lies essentially enslaving mortals and keeping them away from their potential and the only way to let mortals realize their potential is to rob the gods of their power and the only way the gods can be robbed of their power is by another god, how can anything that happens afterword be said to be something mortals did?  They would have stayed in a state of subjugation indefinitely if not for the intervention of a god, which suggests they *do* need gods."   

"If the gods became gods because of advanced animancy, and the only way for mortals to fix what Eothas does is with advanced animancy, what's to stop another set of mortals from just doing the same thing ancient Engwith did all over again?"

"If all of this is about mortals figuring out their potential to solve problems by advancing themselves in understanding and craft, why is what ancient Engwith did not an acceptable answer?  If they found out there are no gods through their skill, collectively decided they wanted gods, and then developed the astonishing technology necessary to transform themselves into gods, how is this not in and of itself an acceptable answer to "life, the universe, and everything" or whatever?  It's the *literal* apotheosis of mortals via science and logic.  It's a secular humanist's wet dream."

"If the gods controlling mortals in they do is a form of unacceptable tyranny even though they squabble among themselves and represent wildly different aspects of reality, morality, and philosophy that roughly correspond to mortal views and goals such that no particular outlook or philosophy ever succeeds in getting its way all the time, how is *one* god spontaneously deciding he knows best for everybody, gods and mortals alike, and that he will do anything to put his master plan into action not a tyranny of the highest order?"

To be fair, my suspicion is that all of this was setting up for a third game and that a lot of those kinds of questions would come up in that game.  That's the charitable interpretation anyway.  The uncharitable interpretation is that devs or dev have a particular kind of philosophical apologetics they want to make and they are not going to let a pesky thing like player agency in an RPG get in the way of pushing that.   

Edited April 21, 2020 by Ontarah
typos

[thelee]

While I'm not as negative on the "choices didn't matter in the end" aspect of it, it does strike me as an oddly inconsistent tone with PoE1.

PoE1 I thought was fascinating from a world-building perspective, because it was a traditional fantasy world was at the cusp of enlightenment/industrial revolution, as evidenced by the growth of renaissance-era gunplay, revolutionary sentiment in dyrwood, a nascent science (animancy) to replace the more traditional magic, and most relevantly a war in which a literal god was destroyed by a man-made bomb. If a god could be destroyed by man (not to mention the big reveal at the end), it upends all sorts of things in the world, right?

It did strike me as odd that noone in Deadfire seems to care that the gods aren't real (I think I've raised this point several times in the past on this forum) and in contrast to what PoE1 was about, there's literally nothing you can do to stop Eothas's mission - you can change the ending slides a bit, but it feels a bit of a cop-out writing-wise. What you did at the end of PoE1 still felt impactful even if it was just mostly ending slides (to the extent that I was annoyed and repeatedly reported as bug that you didn't get Wael's blessing for pledging to do what Wael wanted, even if it only mattered for like the last 15 minutes of the game... it still felt very impactful and important).

[uuuhhii]

9 minutes ago, thelee said:

While I'm not as negative on the "choices didn't matter in the end" aspect of it, it does strike me as an oddly inconsistent tone with PoE1.

PoE1 I thought was fascinating from a world-building perspective, because it was a traditional fantasy world was at the cusp of enlightenment/industrial revolution, as evidenced by the growth of renaissance-era gunplay, revolutionary sentiment in dyrwood, a nascent science (animancy) to replace the more traditional magic, and most relevantly a war in which a literal god was destroyed by a man-made bomb. If a god could be destroyed by man (not to mention the big reveal at the end), it upends all sorts of things in the world, right?

It did strike me as odd that noone in Deadfire seems to care that the gods aren't real (I think I've raised this point several times in the past on this forum) and in contrast to what PoE1 was about, there's literally nothing you can do to stop Eothas's mission - you can change the ending slides a bit, but it feels a bit of a cop-out writing-wise. What you did at the end of PoE1 still felt impactful even if it was just mostly ending slides (to the extent that I was annoyed and repeatedly reported as bug that you didn't get Wael's blessing for pledging to do what Wael wanted, even if it only mattered for like the last 15 minutes of the game... it still felt very impactful and important).

the generic dyrwood setting was most boring part of poe

other then guns and adra pillar there is nothing noticeable or interesting

the choice at the end of poe was not that important either

that is the long standing problem with these kind of rpgs

as for the gods are made by engwithan part

it was never as important as thaos obsessively insist it would be

several of the gods literally encouraging or just waiting for kith to eventually find out

[Guest Ontarah]

55 minutes ago, thelee said:

While I'm not as negative on the "choices didn't matter in the end" aspect of it, it does strike me as an oddly inconsistent tone with PoE1.

PoE1 I thought was fascinating from a world-building perspective, because it was a traditional fantasy world was at the cusp of enlightenment/industrial revolution, as evidenced by the growth of renaissance-era gunplay, revolutionary sentiment in dyrwood, a nascent science (animancy) to replace the more traditional magic, and most relevantly a war in which a literal god was destroyed by a man-made bomb. If a god could be destroyed by man (not to mention the big reveal at the end), it upends all sorts of things in the world, right?

It did strike me as odd that noone in Deadfire seems to care that the gods aren't real (I think I've raised this point several times in the past on this forum) and in contrast to what PoE1 was about, there's literally nothing you can do to stop Eothas's mission - you can change the ending slides a bit, but it feels a bit of a cop-out writing-wise. What you did at the end of PoE1 still felt impactful even if it was just mostly ending slides (to the extent that I was annoyed and repeatedly reported as bug that you didn't get Wael's blessing for pledging to do what Wael wanted, even if it only mattered for like the last 15 minutes of the game... it still felt very impactful and important).

I just took it as nobody but you and your associates actually understands that the gods are man-made.  For one, your character can actively resolve that it's in the best interests of society to keep this secret to yourself.  For second, I imagine if you tried to "spread the word" most people would just think you were crazy.  The only thing I found especially odd was that there was 0 conversation about this with Tekehu or Xoti who both care bout the gods a great deal and who don't know what the PC knows but would almost certainly end up finding out over the course of being around the PC for months.   In particular, I see 0 reason why Pallegina wouldn't try to school them. 

I also personally think that mortal reaction to the knowledge the gods aren't "real" wouldn't really be as earth shattering a revelation as it's made out to be.  People's reaction would run the full gamut of human reactions to anything: relief, outrage, despair, dark humor, stoicism, and on an on.  The aggregate consequence of that varied reaction is that humans will go on behaving exactly like humans and pretty much nothing changes in some categorical deeply meaningful way.  Maybe some religious zealots get replaced with political zealots.  But overall everything pretty much stays the same. 

In some ways, Eothas decision to break everything seems to be trying to strong-arm a world shattering, dramatic transition in thought that simply wouldn't materialize based on nothing but an understanding of the nature of the gods.    

A weird subtext throughout this series seems to be about trying desperately to get humans to cease behaving like humans.   This just isn't going to happen, but there's no real way for your PC to have this opinion so far as I can tell.  I can't *do* anything about what Eothas does.  I just want to be able to say how pointless what he is doing is. 

Lol, maybe I've got too much Taoist in me for what they are trying to go for here. 

Edited April 21, 2020 by Ontarah
extra thought

[uuuhhii]

6 minutes ago, Ontarah said:

I just took it as nobody but you and your associates actually understands that the gods are man-made.  For one, your character can actively resolve that it's in the best interests of society to keep this secret to yourself.  For second, I imagine if you tried to "spread the word" most people would just think you were crazy.  The only thing I found especially odd was that there was 0 conversation about this with Tekehu or Xoti who both care bout the gods a great deal and who don't know what the PC knows but would almost certainly end up finding out over the course of being around the PC for months.   In particular, I see 0 reason why Pallegina wouldn't try to school them. 

I also personally think that mortal reaction to the knowledge the gods aren't "real" wouldn't really be as earth shattering a revelation as it's made out to be.  People's reaction would run the full gamut of human reactions to anything: relief, outrage, despair, dark humor, stoicism, and on an on.  The aggregate consequence of that varied reaction is that humans will go on behaving exactly like humans and pretty much nothing changes in some categorical deeply meaningful way.  Maybe some religious zealots get replaced with political zealots.  But overall everything pretty much stays the same. 

In some ways, Eothas decision to break everything seems to be trying to strong-arm a world shattering, dramatic transition in thought that simply wouldn't materialize based on nothing but an understanding of the nature of the gods.    

A weird subtext throughout this series seems to be about trying desperately to get humans to cease behaving like humans.   This just isn't going to happen, but there's no real way for your PC to have this opinion so far as I can tell.  I can't *do* anything about what Eothas does.  I just want to be able to say how pointless what he is doing is. 

the only really change the knowledge of engwithan making gods would bring will be massive construction of new gods or empower existing gods

[Tencatta]

On 4/21/2020 at 8:29 AM, AeonsLegend said:

The characters were meh, the story was meh. How on earth is the ending going to be wonderful? I thought it was pretty terrible as a whole. The only thing that keeps me going is the combat and class system. It's like Neverwinter Nights 2 (Also Obsidian lol). Great to theorycraft characters, but story and characters weren't particularly great. Although imo I like NWN2 a lot better than Deadfire. Especially MotB was great.

I had the same reaction and wasn't expecting an incline for the ending, but I was surprised that after all the "hunting" (more like following, since there was no urgency) Eothas, it was kind of a confusing conversation and that was it.  I found out later the end dialogue was bugged and was missing key info to have it make sense... but even that knowledge didn't change my opinion of the endgame.

I don't think every ending needs to be a fight (Fallout 1) but Deadfire's ending was just a huge letdown, it made my journey feel lilke it didn't matter.

[Elric Galad]

I wish there was at least a "secret ending" where Wael's Titan could crush Eothas before he destroys the Wheel.

I like crushing him because Eothas deserves it anyway. Revealing Ukaizo to mortals would have been enough to fullfill his goal without endangering the whole creation. Eothas is the god of Hope, I think he is just biased toward Hope. Power of Friendship isn't enough to suddenly rise the Animancy skills of Valians (not even speaking of Huanas) toward the level of Engwithans.

I'm not even commenting on "goals justify means" and the hundreds that were killed in the process (including main character), I'm just saying his goal is crazy.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Elric Galad

[Tencatta]

Is it just me or is this forum kinda dead? It's too bad, I think there's a lot to discuss.

Was rereading some of the critiques and this one hit me:

On 4/21/2020 at 1:16 PM, thelee said:

While I'm not as negative on the "choices didn't matter in the end" aspect of it, it does strike me as an oddly inconsistent tone with PoE1.

PoE1 I thought was fascinating from a world-building perspective, because it was a traditional fantasy world was at the cusp of enlightenment/industrial revolution, as evidenced by the growth of renaissance-era gunplay, revolutionary sentiment in dyrwood, a nascent science (animancy) to replace the more traditional magic, and most relevantly a war in which a literal god was destroyed by a man-made bomb. If a god could be destroyed by man (not to mention the big reveal at the end), it upends all sorts of things in the world, right?

It did strike me as odd that noone in Deadfire seems to care that the gods aren't real (I think I've raised this point several times in the past on this forum) and in contrast to what PoE1 was about, there's literally nothing you can do to stop Eothas's mission - you can change the ending slides a bit, but it feels a bit of a cop-out writing-wise. What you did at the end of PoE1 still felt impactful even if it was just mostly ending slides (to the extent that I was annoyed and repeatedly reported as bug that you didn't get Wael's blessing for pledging to do what Wael wanted, even if it only mattered for like the last 15 minutes of the game... it still felt very impactful and important).

The whole lack of caring about whether the gods were real also bothered me in Deadfire, but I lost that in the other critiques I had, since it was strangely minor for such an important lore point. Thanks for reminding me.

Also, this must be the first game I can think of where the narrative needed a patch to actually have it make sense and give meaning to it.

[Boeroer]

6 hours ago, Tencatta said:

Is it just me or is this forum kinda dead? It's too bad, I think there's a lot to discuss.

Well I'm always here so feel free to post stuff.

[Tencatta]

On 12/16/2020 at 1:11 AM, Boeroer said:

Well I'm always here so feel free to post stuff.

I absolutely will!

 

Still reading through the other critiques, it's reminding me about a lot of stuff I hadn't articulated about the game, so the forum's good for that.

[Boeroer]

Maybe, once the devs recovered from their Deadfire burn-out (some already stated on Twitter that they would be ready and willing to tackle another PoE) they will go and gather all criticism about Deadfire. And maybe they will also read threads like this. Especially in retrospect (I mean looking at the game again some time after it was released - or after one did play it for the first time) criticism is often more constructive. At least that's my impression.

[AndreaColombo]

FWIW, I feel the same as Guest Ontarah.

The reveal at the end of PoE matters to the Watcher and their companions in light of their dealings with Thaos and the root cause for the Hollowborn crisis. It would not necessarily bear the same meaning to everybody else, nor would it necessarily entail earth-shattering political or societal upheavals.

Philosophically and religiously, sure, it would tip the scales—but does the artificial nature of the gods make them any less real? They still very much exist and they still very much hold a metric ton of power. They still embody their respective portfolios. If people had been satisfied with their faith up until that point, they might as well keep being satisfied afterward.

Some people may feel betrayed and abandon their faith; others may even become mouthpieces for atheism and/or liberation from the gods, but it's not like everybody and their dog would automatically follow suit like an Eora-wide hoard of mindless drones.

IMO it makes sense for the Watcher to be shocked at the revelation that the gods are artificial. It's kind of a big deal and, as the game shows, has ramifications and implications (not least of which the Leaden Key's overarching plot to hide the fact causing damage like the Hollowborn crisis in the name of the end that justifies the means.) After processing the information, the Watcher may then settle on any of a number of possible stances: I don't care about the gods; I don't care about their artificial nature and will keep my faith; gods are a fraud and should be exposed; the consequences of exposing the gods on a world-scale would be disastrous and it should be kept a secret; etc..

Even then, as has been mentioned, trying to expose the gods as artificial without hard evidence (which, let's face it, the Watcher does not possess at the end of the first game) would likely be dismissed as the ravings of a lunatic (Watchers are driven mad by their Awakening, remember? Go explain everyone that you're different because you're speshul.) And if the endeavor somehow started to catch on, don't you think the gods would take notice and do something about it? The Leaden Key wasn't over after Thaos's death and may still operate to obfuscate that truth (and the Hand Occult happily continues to do so with any truth they stumble upon.)

In Deadfire, it is strange that you cannot discuss the matter with your companions—and I certainly agree that it's odd how Pallegina wouldn't rub it in Xoti's and Tekehu's face (but would they heed her words? She clearly has a bone to pick with the gods, so who's to say her hatred hasn't reached paroxysm and she's not just throwing a hissy fit?) Yet it isn't strange for the Watcher not to proselytize about it every chance they get. Go explain Queen Onekaza that the god stomping around in a 7-ft. adra statue is kith-made, see if she gives two damns and a half vis-a-vis the situation she's got on her hands. "Oh, well, why didn't you say so? If he's kith-made then all good. He can stomp around my isles all he wants and suck souls out of my people no problem."

The game never said you could stop Eothas. In fact, it makes it plenty clear that you can't when Ondra and Magran try and fail. Surely you would not expect the Watcher to hold more power than two gods combined? You've got Eothas's ear, sure, but I'm still wondering why. You're just a puny mortal like every other. You're a Watcher but you're neither the first, nor the last. You know of the origin of the gods but that doesn't make Eothas beholden to you in any way—it shouldn't come as a surprise that he eventually goes through with his plan regardless of what you say. He's clearly put a lot of thought and effort into it, for better or worse, and he's not going to relent just because a mortal chased him and shook their finger angrily at him.

Indeed, your mission was never to stop Eothas; Berath tasked you with finding out what his plans were so that the gods may take action accordingly (which they failed to do, as we now know), and you needed to retrieve your soul in the process for, as it is explained by the Steward at the beginning of the game, the farther away Eothas walked with your soul in him, the weaker and unlikely to wake up the Watcher became.

It's already a lot that you can actually make Eothas destroy all life under specific circumstances. I do believe, however, that you can get Wael's titan to crush Eothas and prevent the destruction of the Wheel. I haven't pursued that ending, but I recall seeing ending slides with the titan assaulting Eothas.

Edited December 18, 2020 by AndreaColombo

[dukeisaac]

On 12/18/2020 at 11:18 AM, AndreaColombo said:

FWIW, I feel the same as Guest Ontarah.

The reveal at the end of PoE matters to the Watcher and their companions in light of their dealings with Thaos and the root cause for the Hollowborn crisis. It would not necessarily bear the same meaning to everybody else, nor would it necessarily entail earth-shattering political or societal upheavals.

Philosophically and religiously, sure, it would tip the scales—but does the artificial nature of the gods make them any less real? They still very much exist and they still very much hold a metric ton of power. They still embody their respective portfolios. If people had been satisfied with their faith up until that point, they might as well keep being satisfied afterward.

Some people may feel betrayed and abandon their faith; others may even become mouthpieces for atheism and/or liberation from the gods, but it's not like everybody and their dog would automatically follow suit like an Eora-wide hoard of mindless drones.

IMO it makes sense for the Watcher to be shocked at the revelation that the gods are artificial. It's kind of a big deal and, as the game shows, has ramifications and implications (not least of which the Leaden Key's overarching plot to hide the fact causing damage like the Hollowborn crisis in the name of the end that justifies the means.) After processing the information, the Watcher may then settle on any of a number of possible stances: I don't care about the gods; I don't care about their artificial nature and will keep my faith; gods are a fraud and should be exposed; the consequences of exposing the gods on a world-scale would be disastrous and it should be kept a secret; etc..

Even then, as has been mentioned, trying to expose the gods as artificial without hard evidence (which, let's face it, the Watcher does not possess at the end of the first game) would likely be dismissed as the ravings of a lunatic (Watchers are driven mad by their Awakening, remember? Go explain everyone that you're different because you're speshul.) And if the endeavor somehow started to catch on, don't you think the gods would take notice and do something about it? The Leaden Key wasn't over after Thaos's death and may still operate to obfuscate that truth (and the Hand Occult happily continues to do so with any truth they stumble upon.)

In Deadfire, it is strange that you cannot discuss the matter with your companions—and I certainly agree that it's odd how Pallegina wouldn't rub it in Xoti's and Tekehu's face (but would they heed her words? She clearly has a bone to pick with the gods, so who's to say her hatred hasn't reached paroxysm and she's not just throwing a hissy fit?) Yet it isn't strange for the Watcher not to proselytize about it every chance they get. Go explain Queen Onekaza that the god stomping around in a 7-ft. adra statue is kith-made, see if she gives two damns and a half vis-a-vis the situation she's got on her hands. "Oh, well, why didn't you say so? If he's kith-made then all good. He can stomp around my isles all he wants and suck souls out of my people no problem."

The game never said you could stop Eothas. In fact, it makes it plenty clear that you can't when Ondra and Magran try and fail. Surely you would not expect the Watcher to hold more power than two gods combined? You've got Eothas's ear, sure, but I'm still wondering why. You're just a puny mortal like every other. You're a Watcher but you're neither the first, nor the last. You know of the origin of the gods but that doesn't make Eothas beholden to you in any way—it shouldn't come as a surprise that he eventually goes through with his plan regardless of what you say. He's clearly put a lot of thought and effort into it, for better or worse, and he's not going to relent just because a mortal chased him and shook their finger angrily at him.

Indeed, your mission was never to stop Eothas; Berath tasked you with finding out what his plans were so that the gods may take action accordingly (which they failed to do, as we now know), and you needed to retrieve your soul in the process for, as it is explained by the Steward at the beginning of the game, the farther away Eothas walked with your soul in him, the weaker and unlikely to wake up the Watcher became.

It's already a lot that you can actually make Eothas destroy all life under specific circumstances. I do believe, however, that you can get Wael's titan to crush Eothas and prevent the destruction of the Wheel. I haven't pursued that ending, but I recall seeing ending slides with the titan assaulting Eothas.

This was one of the best critiques of POEII's endgame I've read on this forum. Well said !

(Now I guess I'm going to drop DOS2 and replay Deadfire for the 12th time...)

Edited December 21, 2020 by dukeisaac

[Boeroer]

iirc the Wael Titan can indeed march towards Ukaizo and attack Eothas, but doesn't the wheel get smashed anyway (maybe they fall onto it while struggling, don't remember to be honest)? Still cool option though.  

[uuuhhii]

player obviously will never care if gods are made by mashing millions of soul together or not

it also doesn't make sense if player character and teammates just running around shouting it from the roof top

how many random mortal would believe or care?

just read the description of sun and moon

[Tencatta]

On 12/22/2020 at 5:18 PM, uuuhhii said:

player obviously will never care if gods are made by mashing millions of soul together or not

it also doesn't make sense if player character and teammates just running around shouting it from the roof top

how many random mortal would believe or care?

just read the description of sun and moon

Yeah, for a player to care, it needs to impact them or they need to see some danger/effect on the world to care (preferably a change that affects them).

It seemed like in Deadfire, no one really cared in the first place, and the Eothas "chase" isn't very urgent, so the revelation kind of loses its strength. The fact the gods aren't actually gods doesn't change the fact they have considerable power (so much so you can't even fight them without a Godhammer bomb, and even that doesn't quite work).

[xzar_monty]

On 12/31/2020 at 1:05 AM, Tencatta said:

It seemed like in Deadfire, no one really cared in the first place, and the Eothas "chase" isn't very urgent, so the revelation kind of loses its strength. The fact the gods aren't actually gods doesn't change the fact they have considerable power (so much so you can't even fight them without a Godhammer bomb, and even that doesn't quite work).

Deadfire is, indeed, a strange beast. The story doesn't really work if you look at it carefully; it's just strange that the great revelation of PoE is essentially ignored in Deadfire, and then there's the paradox of the apparently urgent chase for Eothas, on the one hand, and the fact that the game is clearly designed so that you're meant to also explore the entire archipelago, on the other. It doesn't add up, it's just weird.

However, the game's still great. I will happily agree with everyone who thinks that the game's foundations are shaky, but the game is still great.