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How bad was that ending? (Spoiler alert)

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So i loved the ride to this game but that ending was awful. 1st of all, we never get any answers about what the world was like before the wheel. Travel through Ukaizo was so fast. All they would have needed to add were maybe some murals or some lines of dialogue but we dont even get that. The beast of Ukaizo. Gives us this confusing explanation involving outsiders and old ones. If the beast is going to be using our language why would it name the the Engwithans and Huana something we cannot readily identify?  The last big problem is the final confrontation. It puts the protagonist in the position of standing and watching. The inactive protagonist is a common mistake among amateur writers. It makes the audience question why the protagonist is even around. Frankly, it makes me wonder why we even needed to use the Audra statue at all? Would have been better for Eothas to just take control of another Waidwin type figure who instead takes control of the statue. Then we could at least have someone to fight. I liked most of the game leading up to the end but the final confrontation just fell completely flat.

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never get much of the old world before 2000 year in poe1 too

likely it will be in the next od nua in dlc or 3

the 4 city block does have too little content

but many fight in sun in shadow was actually not very interesting last time

the confusing thing was what the guardian did when engwithan destroy old huana

nothing or helped engwithan?

watch eothas do all that was a better direction than the legendary hero save the world again

Edited by uuuhhii

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I overall agree, except the notion that inability to confront Eothas is a sign of inexperienced writer. There are plenty stories which use protagonist’s inability to interfere to their advantage:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7uSz0mEtEsQ

 

I am less sold on why we are tasked with following Eothas in the first place, and why we are the only person who has an influence toward him. The whole wheel reveal the whole situation more confusing, rather than explaining anything.

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I overall agree, except the notion that inability to confront Eothas is a sign of inexperienced writer. There are plenty stories which use protagonist’s inability to interfere to their advantage:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7uSz0mEtEsQ

 

I am less sold on why we are tasked with following Eothas in the first place, and why we are the only person who has an influence toward him. The whole wheel reveal the whole situation more confusing, rather than explaining anything.

yes

the motivation of protagonist are the weakest part of story

in poe1 awoken and driven mad by a random ritual in some ruin are too unnecessarily complicate

just soul damaged by biawac will do the job

and poe2 get it right but with another unnecessary resurrect and task by berath thing

Edited by uuuhhii

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Wasn't a huge fan of the ending either. I felt like it ultimately didn't even matter if my character was there at all, seeing as how the same result comes of it regardless. For all the gods discussion on "kill Eothas!" and "He will only listen to you!", neither option really becomes available other than "what consolation will Eothas offer before he busts things up?". I can appreciate the emphasis on him being (literally) too big to stop, but it does mean that the players place in this story is ultimately meaningless. Heck, for that matter, the other factions place in the main story is pretty pointless. They spent most of the plot refusing to believe there's a giant stomping on their stuff, and when reality finally sinks in, they act like its a tactical advantage in a far lesser war. 

 

Ultimately, I was left confused as to what Berath was even expecting of me through the adventure. Being a god(ess) of DEATH, I thought she'd already be aware of what was going on down bellow, so she didn't need me to actually WATCH him. She said she wanted me to talk him out of stuff, but it becomes obvious early on that that won't likely bear fruit. She cannot possibly expect me to fight him, and if so, doesn't really help me with that. The other gods seem to regard me as an uninvited guest in their debate club meetings...

 

The story also seems at odds with the big theme of POE 1; whether mortals messing with the soul in the name of science is good or bad. This was a VERY good, thought provoking argument that formed the basis of POE 1's stories, not just the main campaign. The idea that it could help, but that we were playing with fire that did more than just burn the flesh, that we were being extremely arrogant and trying to master a power that could go as wrong as it could well. We saw examples on both sides of the argument that showed the good and the terribly, terribly bad.

 

...then comes Eothas in POE 2, making the conclusion for us and saying "yup, Animancy is the way, go forth!", regardless of what anyone thought. The fact that that end was forced on us after an entire game encouraging us to think about it was a bit of a downer. 

 

Maybe the expansions will add to the ending. I do hope so. POE 2 was an otherwise excellent ride, and one of the few (quasi) open worlds that I really enjoyed enough to come back to for seconds and thirds. I would, however, be lying if I said the main plot was anywhere near as engaging as POE 1, or even Icewind Dale 1 and 2.... 

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I've been avoiding doing this post for a while, but eh. I think I must do it.

 

Looking at the location, maps and what Ukaizo is like, I think it is rather obvious that Obsidian ran out of money and/or time. I think this is beyond questioning. And I can't blame them too much for that. It happens, it's the facts of life and game development. It doesn't make it right or good. I can see a way Ukaizo could have been an awesome location and a final dungeon. It wasn't but I can live with it.

 

I don't mind personally the last confrontation and that it doesn't lead to a fight. Somewhat anticlimactic endings can work and I do most passionately disagree with the assessment that inactive/powerless protagonists are a sign of bad or inexperienced writing. This is not the case. Doing that well is another matter entirely. And whether that kind of narrative fits videogames as a medium another. In general, I would argue that it doesn't. There have been some games that have done it well, and many ones that have tried it to one degree or another and failed badly.

 

The problem, and I have a huge problem with the narrative of Deadfire and this is something that really becomes apparent in Ukaizo is that.. Deadfire is an interlude. A middle part of a trilogy and not in the "Empire Strikes Back"-way. I can see the myriad of reasons for how it came to be this way. And while none of them excuse it, it makes sense. PoE 1 was a personal story, with a huge revelation in the end, but that revelation was made to you, personally. The revelation wasn't broadcasted. You want to use that revelation in further stories. And Deadfire lays the groundwork for that. Would it have worked better as a companion novel? Maybe, even probably. Yet this was the way it was decided to be done. I don't think it's a bad narrative or ending even. Unsuited for the medium, maybe. Suffering from being an interlude, certainly. The groundwork has to be done somewhere and PoE 1 was, by the nature of what it narrative was like, a hard one to make a sequel to. I can't fault the team too much for not doing a better job.

 

TL;DR: Ending and Ukaizo were lackluster and disappointing and showed the underlying issue in the narrative. Yet I understand why it came to be that way. Makes the disappointment far more palatable?

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The story was way way inferior to that of Pillars 1. In Pillars 1 you actually get to make a world changing decision at the end. Here? Nothing. Your choices don't matter. The game is fun, but the main storyline is a downer. 

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n Pillars 1 you actually get to make a world changing decision at the end. Here? Nothing. Your choices don't matter. 

This is not true.

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...then comes Eothas in POE 2, making the conclusion for us and saying "yup, Animancy is the way, go forth!", regardless of what anyone thought.

That animancy was prospering outside the Dyrwood, espeicially among the vailians, it was discussed in PoE1. I don't remember the exact npc/books that spoke of it, but I'd bet on Pallegina or Kana.


I've come to burn your kingdom down

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Well to be fair I actually like this story better than many others. The narrative of poe 1 was over-complicated. BG1 had a good but over-complicated plot as well . BG2  and its expansion are some of the best story lines in gaming.  Icewind Dale 2 was good as well. Some of the characters are bland and caricaturish in Deadfire but the story is good overall. My main criticism is the end. It really sucks the life out of the adventure but the direction is okay and i loved the way they explored sociopolitical themes.

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TL;DR: Ending and Ukaizo were lackluster and disappointing and showed the underlying issue in the narrative. Yet I understand why it came to be that way. Makes the disappointment far more palatable?

While i found PoE1 very flawed while playing it, after completion it left me satisfied. Deadfire was much more enjoyable in the moment, but after the credits rolled I found it a bit hollow.

 

What I really can’t find in Deadfire is a coherent set of themes or character arc. Individual quests and stories are a lot of fun, but in the end they don’t come together. Even in something like Baldurs Gate, those unrelated sidequests tend to play well into main story of you being the child of Bhaal - murder and way you use your power is central part of the game. In Deadfire you are a Watcher, a herald of Berath, a ship captain, a hunter, a discoverer, but none of those come together into a coherent character arc. Majority of the game is spent exploring and supporting factions, yet crit path makes all those conflicts feel irrelevant.

 

The more I think about Deadfire, the more interesting it is. Something in there doesn’t really work, and I am not 100% what it is, or what would fix that. But it’s good, it’s really good. And yet it disappoints.

 

Edit: it doesn’t have heart. There are no “feels” in Deadfire. PoE1 gave me “feels” - whenever it’s companions, or finale or quests.

Edited by Wormerine
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PoE was such a somber game. It dealt mostly with a country after war, grief, loss, questioning beliefs. It was rarely about good vs evil, but more like, about authority vs autonomy. How much freedom people should have. Do they need gods as the source of ethics. Is truth ultimately good. It gave me lots to think about and I loved talking about it with my friend. It's like an overall more mature take at a fantasy story, searching for a more intimate perspective, dealing with an universal experience of suffering and death.

 

Deadfire has really nice things about colonization and culture. I seriously liked listening to all those conversations between Huana and Rauatai. But it lacks an emotional core. It doesn't really feel like the Watcher's story even. Watcher experienced their own death and it's not really brought up again. Also their condition as a Watcher isn't fully exploited (not sure how should I word it). You don't see that many ghosts... They could have been more connected to the main story. There isn't a strong recurring theme that could connect the big political plot with the metaphysical. Maybe it could have been more about the world before apocalypse (which you kinda get but only after revelations at Ashen Maw when every faction leader is present at the palace).

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Ukaizo was definitely anti-climactic.

 

I think the Eothas thing was a sign not of amateur writing but of it being a middle game. They had to have this thing happen for the larger meta-plot, so there couldn't be branching outcomes to your Eothas chase.

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It's weird, I feel mixed about the main story and it's ending. I really liked elements about it, but funnily enough I relate to the complaints and observations here way more than I expected.

 

The concept and stuff that was there was really cool, it just felt.. Atrophied? Cut up? I don't know.

 

Also, I think they really had something going with the question, "is it better to act to fix something but potentially cause horrible consequences, or is it better to let horrible things happen and not do /cause something horrible yourself?" They had that with Aloth's quest and touched on it with Eothas and maybe an incy bit with the Watcher. If they had just put more time on that, I think it would have resonated more.

 

Also would have benefited on focusing a little more on the autonomy vs authority theme again. Just because it was kind of already there with Eothas's choice about the wheel and the gods. The themes definitely there already, just felt a little quiet.

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I kind of want to do a Kickstarter to flesh out this main story, maybe the companions a little.

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Yeah the entire main story (such as it was) and especially the very end was a bit of a letdown. I agree with criticisms already levied:

  • lack of thematic unity with rest of game
  • main character motivation did not really resonate. I guess Eothas destroyed my keep and killed my people but for some reason I don't feel an emotional connection to that, maybe relying too much on borrowing emotions from a game I played years ago. If they'd started with you ingame tending to your keep and such it would have been more upsetting. 
  • lack of important info about pre-Engwith soul system, or even acknowledgement that such info could exist (I guess confirmed to be cut dialogue by devs)
  • Last section felt very rushed. Straight to a boss battle without much buildup, and the fight itself was quite boring, boss hardly did anything except summon some adds. 
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There are no “feels” in Deadfire. PoE1 gave me “feels” - whenever it’s companions, or finale or quests.

 

I didn't realize how true this was until you said it. Deadfire made me laugh. PoE1 gave me feels. That carried over into the expansion, too - that moment with your companions, choosing who should (potentially) sacrifice themselves to destroy the Eyeless, was amazing. I wonder what this game's expansions will bring.

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After learning what Eothas was going to do, I mostly wanted either to sit it out (because I'd do the same, if I could) or find a magic analog of a nuke and drop it on him (because he did destroy my castle and kill my staff). The funny thing is that Eothas was acting as an average PC ("I do what I want/I know what's best for you and I can do it, consequences be damned").

 

On Ukaizo. Considering that it was after the point of no-return, the shorter the final rush is, the better, because I'm (and, quite likely, the majority of people here) going to replay it after each DLC and/or update.

 

I do appreciate that Deadfire was able to break the genre cliches (particularly, quests "The Courier's Calling", Eothas' storyline, the lack of ultimately "good guys"/"The Truest and Happiest Ending").

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I didn't mind the ending, I thought it quite good. It wasen't very fleshed out, sure, but it wasen't not bad, in my opinion. I would love to have the that  longer conversation that Sawyer first intended, maybe they will add it again. 

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Ending reminds me of Mask of the Betrayer.  Where you're whole quest to tear down that wall or lead the crusade ends up with "well sorry you can't because you can't actually fight a DnD god"...except if you turn totally evil.  

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I was pretty disappointed on the first play through, but only because I was playing a Death Godlike, Priest of Berath, who was given a sworn duty to confront and stop Eothas. I resented when he just *absolves* me of my responsibility, something my character wanted, that he had no right to absolve me of. I restarted and just argued against him and he nuked me and I just ended it there. I was given a mission and clung to it but nothing I could do could effect anything other than maybe assuage his divine little ego. I wasn't sent to jackoff a god I didn't worship, I was sent there to achieve a goal. 

Apparently there's an ending that would have empowered someone, I might go back and try that one out, but it didn't seem like this single minded character. I think I'll probably like the next playthrough a bit more, knowing what's coming, but as it stands the ability to even just tell him "I really want you to stop. I know you won't listen but everyone's telling me to give you an opinion - I *want* the wheel. Even Thaos comments that souls ground down unendingly anyway, so why should the resulting chaff not empower beings whose purpose is to look after the world. Maybe they need a swift ass kicking but leave things as they are and empower the most impartial one or whatever". I'd have taken a hollow plea after my character's original goal and outlook than the options with the wording I saw.

Edited by Rheios
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I found the ending to OK... the last monster was to easy to kill at 20th level (Veteran difficulty)... he did nothing and my party never once had any deaths.

 

A part form that It was  a big empty place... could have been just one location.

 

I'm not bothered about not fighting Eothas... anyone who was expecting to fight him after seeing how big he was at the volcano needs to go see a doctor. What could any character do against that? His eyes are my height... and even all the other GODs don't want to combine together and fight him.

 

What realistic chance would the main character have had. He's not Thaos

Edited by ArnoldRimmer

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I overall agree, except the notion that inability to confront Eothas is a sign of inexperienced writer. There are plenty stories which use protagonist’s inability to interfere to their advantage:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7uSz0mEtEsQ

 

I am less sold on why we are tasked with following Eothas in the first place, and why we are the only person who has an influence toward him. The whole wheel reveal the whole situation more confusing, rather than explaining anything.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

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I'll put it like this. The game is amazing. Stunning in every way. Both real time and turn-based combat modes play exceptionally well, and the choices based off of reputation, skill, attributes, as well as abilities make you feel like your choices matter; from your race and general disposition, to the abilities you take on the perk tree. 

Now, this being said, I have a bone to pick with the game. This game at it's core has been about Fantasy, Adventure,  Power, and Choices. The first and second game (for the most part) do a very good job of giving scratching all 4 of those itches. In the second game, you become THE HERALD OF BERATH (now that's a title right?). The scene on the docks where you can show the harbor master "what you are" is a scene that I will never forget. Now, tell me why, in a game that does such a good job with power scaling, and making you feel like you're the next best thing to a god, makes your power utterly insignificant in the end. You're the Watcher, with the Gods at your back, and you can't stop Eothas. No matter what you do. No matter your choices. You can only influence how he goes about it. In a game about choices, I felt betrayed by how little my choices mattered in the end. And by the fact, that in the end, I don't even get to see the product of those choices in anything but ending slides. This was not how this game should have ended. And I must admit, when all the characters in the game were telling me, to my face, that there was no way to stop Eothas, I didn't believe them. I thought there must be something. So at the end of the game, my Passionate/Benevolent character decided  to fight against the inevitable, to save the wheel, to protect the world and the experiment the gods created. To give MY world a chance to beat the gods at their own game. And through my efforts, and carefully planned decisions, and character building, I..... Was immediately destroyed and absorbed by Eothas and nothing I did mattered, and I may as well have never made this character to begin with because it left me with a pointless, and futile ending. The journey was amazing. The destination made my journey insignificant. Made who my character was, insignificant. Made his aspirations, insignificant. In embracing the fact that I could never stop Eothas, it killed what this game was about. The Fantasy, was cut down by the harsh reality that a mortal cannot challenge a god. The adventure, was made utterly pointless. I may as well of listened to Eothas and waited for the end. The Power I felt I had in this world, was nothing in comparison to Eothas. And The Choices? The never mattered to begin with. That's why, for as much as I love these 2 games, I really wouldn't recommend them to someone I know would be as invested in them as I was. Because it was heartbreaking. To the casual player? Amazing games, 9/10, they should absolutely buy and play both of the games. But man. This game burned me.

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