Guard Dog Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 Completely agree with Gromnir. The mandatory education system in this country is a bloody mess. And in a cost vs value analysis higher education in this country is way down the wrong curve. They are charging students a kings ransom and then seriously undeserving them. Kids come out of high school lacking the skill to succeed in college. And the come out of college lacking the skills to succeed in life. And they are massively in debt for their trouble. Who screwed this up? Well, I'll give you a hint... it wasn't the teachers. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Gfted1 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 Ah, the "participation trophy" generation coming home to roost. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Blarghagh Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 That doesn't make sense. Weren't participation trophies found to lower the recipients self-esteem? They'd be less overconfident than peers who didn't receive them, not more.
Amentep Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 Completely agree with Gromnir. The mandatory education system in this country is a bloody mess. And in a cost vs value analysis higher education in this country is way down the wrong curve. They are charging students a kings ransom and then seriously undeserving them. Kids come out of high school lacking the skill to succeed in college. And the come out of college lacking the skills to succeed in life. And they are massively in debt for their trouble. Who screwed this up? Well, I'll give you a hint... it wasn't the teachers. Most public colleges and universities could lower the cost of tuition if the states weren't actively cutting funding (going on now for a decade at least). But funding is one of the ways state/local governments are able to control universities, and politicians love control of things. That's why they sabotaged tenure when they could ("Let us get rid of these bad teachers with tenure by ending tenure!" is really saying "Lets get rid of the teachers who don't follow my political philosophy or say things that are inconvenient because right now I can't get rid of them when they say mean things about my scorched earth policies!" since the average bad teacher would never get tenure as its not granted at a whim). And its why they try to do end runs to take control over schools and systems through legislation. For example, if the government can take their existing power to control how much money the state gives colleges and universities and combine it with the power to prevent those colleges and universities from being self-sufficient on their own through raising tuition and fee ('Because education is getting our of reach of the average American family we must not allow the colleges and universities to keep raising tuition and fees!") then they've ensured that higher education in that state (excepting pricey private schools) is under the control of the legislators and not the 'academics', unless those academics want to find their college or university without state funding and no way to generate the loss through tuition and fees. I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man
Gfted1 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 That doesn't make sense. Weren't participation trophies found to lower the recipients self-esteem? They'd be less overconfident than peers who didn't receive them, not more. Were they? I haven't read that but I would be interested in a link. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Blarghagh Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 Hm, I can't find any legit research confirming that, so it must be one of those claims I've heard often enough to not question anymore, poor form on my part and for that I apologize. Any serious article making that claim cites this: http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1998-04530-003 But that's being completely twisted since that's specifically NOT about praise for ability but praise for intelligence. Now I wonder where I read that. I'm pretty sure I've seen multiple articles say participation trophies lower self-esteem and increase likelihood of bullying, but I guess without any scientific evidence to back that up, I'm going to have to dismiss it. Mea culpa. EDIT: Is there any legit research on this subject AT ALL? Literally anything anybody says about participation awards is anecdotal hearsay and all of it's contradictory! Ugh, you'd think SCHOOLS would respect the concept of empirical evidence.
Gfted1 Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 No worries. I hadnt seen any articles reporting that so I was/am genuinely interested in the study. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Blarghagh Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 I don't think there are any. I've spent the last 30 minutes looking and I can't find any citations or scientific study on the subject at all. Either my google skills are worse than I thought or nobody's actually cared about kids in the US school system enough to actually look into it. The debate on both sides is thus far all sound and fury.
Gromnir Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 That doesn't make sense. Weren't participation trophies found to lower the recipients self-esteem? They'd be less overconfident than peers who didn't receive them, not more. Were they? I haven't read that but I would be interested in a link. am not certain 'bout participation-trophy mentality as a factor in the current education dilemma, but am gonna concede the new generation o' parents has us embracing our inner curmudgeon. "back in my day," nonsense is, as often as not, nonsense. am nevertheless saddened by the shift away from personal responsibility we has witnessed occur in past decades. 1/4 o' our cases involve schools in some way and we has been involved in coaching either high school football or mock trial/moot court/forensics on a yearly basis during the past couple decades. even so, our experience is limited and anecdotal. that said, we has spent much time in schools and interacted with more than a few parents and teachers since the late 90s. feel free to dismiss... or not. regardless, the most obvious and disturbing educational change we has seen develop is the manner in which parents respond to news o' student troubles in class. is not a school funding issue. is not a methodology or teaching modality issue. is not even a "what is wrong with kids these days," issue. heck, ain't an affluent v. poor issue neither as we has observed the change as much (if not more so) at affluent schools compared to low-income. nope, the change which disturbs us most is parental response. parent-teacher conferences is not as we recall from even the late 90s. nowadays a parent-teacher conference often (not always) involves the teacher defending his or her actions rather than there being a meaningful discussion 'bout how to improve amy or billy's grades and/or classroom behavior. the parent wants to know why the teacher has amy doing so much homework given all the extra-curricular activities she is current taking. and if billy has been disruptive in class, then what is the teacher doing to antagonize the poor child? maybe is part o' gifted's notion o' participation trophy? honest not know. we have seen an ever-increasing trend o' parents knee-jerk defense o' their child's actions and behavior regardless o' how indefensible. is it coddling? is it lack o' respect for the teaching profession as a whole? dunno. regardless, rather than working cooperative to improve amy and billy's grades, parents is defending their children from the one person in the room who seems genuine concerned 'bout the child: the teacher. however, am gonna also observe how amentep observation jibes with our understanding o' the current local-state-fed dynamic insofar as education is concerned. states is reducing their higher education footprint at an alarming rate. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/06/how-quickly-will-states-get-to-zero-in-funding-for-higher-education/?utm_term=.5ab49d2f0805 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/economy-rebounds-state-funding-higher-education-isnt-bouncing-back http://www.acenet.edu/the-presidency/columns-and-features/Pages/state-funding-a-race-to-the-bottom.aspx decrease state funding, with increase in secondary services deemed essential for a higher education institution, has led to a tuition crisis. is not an ideal situation and solutions is not political appealing. am not expecting in near future a positive change to funding dynamic. HA! Good Fun! 1 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Amentep Posted July 9, 2018 Posted July 9, 2018 Hm, I can't find any legit research confirming that, so it must be one of those claims I've heard often enough to not question anymore, poor form on my part and for that I apologize. Any serious article making that claim cites this: http://psycnet.apa.org/record/1998-04530-003 But that's being completely twisted since that's specifically NOT about praise for ability but praise for intelligence. Now I wonder where I read that. I'm pretty sure I've seen multiple articles say participation trophies lower self-esteem and increase likelihood of bullying, but I guess without any scientific evidence to back that up, I'm going to have to dismiss it. Mea culpa. EDIT: Is there any legit research on this subject AT ALL? Literally anything anybody says about participation awards is anecdotal hearsay and all of it's contradictory! Ugh, you'd think SCHOOLS would respect the concept of empirical evidence. You might want to search for partial-reinforcement extinction effect or author/researcher Ashley Merryman's research for negative impacts (here's an article from her: https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/10/06/should-every-young-athlete-get-a-trophy/forget-trophies-let-kids-know-its-ok-to-lose) I think Carol Dwick from Stanford has done research that is cited to be pro-participation (or more appropriately, effort) trophies. She was cited in a Huffington Post article that gets referenced a lot - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-powers/science-says-participatio_b_8054046.html Note I think Dwick's actual research is along the lines of the 1998 study that TN cites - that students who were praised for challenging themselves (regardless of whether they succeeded) continued to challenge themselves while students praised for an innate quality (intelligence) were less likely to challenge themselves lest they disprove their innate quality. 1 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man
ShadySands Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Surgery tomorrow. If I die then one of you guys can have my stereo. Free games updated 3/4/21
Bartimaeus Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 If you've never had surgery before, it'll be less scary than you think it will be. Well, unless something unexpected happens or goes wrong, in which case I have no useful advice. Good luck, . Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance.
injurai Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Surgeries any more are like good sleeps, it's the recovery that sucks. My only advice is be careful with take-home opioids. Unlike antibiotics, you're not supposed to finish a bottle.
LadyCrimson Posted July 10, 2018 Posted July 10, 2018 Good luck with the surgery! (why does typing this make me think of Princess Bride....) Surgeries any more are like good sleeps, it's the recovery that sucks. My only advice is be careful with take-home opioids. Unlike antibiotics, you're not supposed to finish a bottle. Those giant codeine-Tylenol pills they gave me after appendectomy/belly surgery were awesome tho. I didn't use them all but hubby finished them off by occasionally using one for headaches (this was when he suddenly began having VERY awful, constant 24/7 headache issues in his early 20's) ...and today I discovered that generic white hot-dog buns actually make decent "toast" - like biscuits. Not that this is healthy or anything, just had one leftover I wanted to use up.... 1 “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
Lexx Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 After I broke my right hand and woke up from surgery, apparently I only talked in english. One of the nurses asked me if I can speak german too and only then I realized what has happened. Was an interesting experience... "only when you no-life you can exist forever, because what does not live cannot die."
Malcador Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 All the best, Shady! Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
Gromnir Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 Surgery tomorrow. some guys will go to any lengths to get a day off from work. good luck. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Guard Dog Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 God bless & good luck today Shady. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Gfted1 Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 Good luck, Shady. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Azdeus Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 Best of luck Shady! Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken
ShadySands Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 Thanks again guys Slightly concerned about the meds they gave me. I've never really had pain meds before (because you can't hurt steel). You never know how short the road is from children's aspirin to shooting heroin directly into your eye 2 Free games updated 3/4/21
Bartimaeus Posted July 11, 2018 Posted July 11, 2018 (edited) If you don't need them, don't take them. I got a big bottle of vicodin for my surgery last summer, and I just didn't take any since it wasn't so bad that I felt I truly needed them. The bottle's still sitting in my safe. Also, good to hear you made it. Edited July 11, 2018 by Bartimaeus 1 Quote How I have existed fills me with horror. For I have failed in everything - spelling, arithmetic, riding, tennis, golf; dancing, singing, acting; wife, mistress, whore, friend. Even cooking. And I do not excuse myself with the usual escape of 'not trying'. I tried with all my heart. In my dreams, I am not crippled. In my dreams, I dance.
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