Update #52: Monk!

[TMZuk]

In my opinion, monks are a ridiculous class. Somebody running onto the field of battle without armour and weapons.

 

"Hey, Dragon, get over here! I'll smack you on the nose and kick your knee!"

 

That's just one of these things in fantasy RPGs where I find it hard to suspend my disbelief.

 

I can't say whether this will make them more interesting or not. It does sound as if they will be annoying to fight against.

 

But thanks for the update.

[Gfted1]

somewhat but thats why i like to pick class specific.  so that the rest of the team compliments my playing style.  this makes it sound like you could play the whole game with 2 monks no problem

I think that's a byproduct of 3.5 & 4E which Sawyers seems to be drawing a lot of inspiration from. Everyone can do everything with little to no efficiency drop off.

[Jarmo]

 

somewhat but thats why i like to pick class specific.  so that the rest of the team compliments my playing style.  this makes it sound like you could play the whole game with 2 monks no problem

I think that's a byproduct of 3.5 & 4E which Sawyers seems to be drawing a lot of inspiration from. Everyone can do everything with little to no efficiency drop off.

 

 

Make that "Everyone can do everything, although with some efficiency drop off" and it'll likely be more accurate.

 

To me, it's like thinking of a special forces team.

It's not like nobody but the medic can apply a bandage, or that the scout is the only one who can sneak.

Specialists do it best, but anyone with a scoped rifle can do a passable job as a sniper.

[PrimeJunta]

I think that's a byproduct of 3.5 & 4E which Sawyers seems to be drawing a lot of inspiration from. Everyone can do everything with little to no efficiency drop off.

Sawyer: "I like strawberries. Strawberries are tasty."

Gfted1: "Sawyer hates strawberries."

 

Reading comprehension FTW.

[Gfted1]

 

 

somewhat but thats why i like to pick class specific.  so that the rest of the team compliments my playing style.  this makes it sound like you could play the whole game with 2 monks no problem

I think that's a byproduct of 3.5 & 4E which Sawyers seems to be drawing a lot of inspiration from. Everyone can do everything with little to no efficiency drop off.

 

 

Make that "Everyone can do everything, although with some efficiency drop off" and it'll likely be more accurate.

 

To me, it's like thinking of a special forces team.

It's not like nobody but the medic can apply a bandage, or that the scout is the only one who can sneak.

Specialists do it best, but anyone with a scoped rifle can do a passable job as a sniper.

 

I said "little to no drop off". Is "some" more than "little"?

 

 

 

I think that's a byproduct of 3.5 & 4E which Sawyers seems to be drawing a lot of inspiration from. Everyone can do everything with little to no efficiency drop off.

Sawyer: "I like strawberries. Strawberries are tasty."

Gfted1: "Sawyer hates strawberries."

 

Reading comprehension FTW.

 

Are you in the middle of having a stroke or something? You seem denser than usual.

[Aedelric]

I utterly detest the idea of including a typical Kung-fu monk running around half naked and punching people in platemail. But it is only one small issue with an otherwise seemingly great game and I am not going to let that affect my enjoyment upon release.

 

I am liking how the culture concepts are shaping up, especially Dyrwood.

[Keyrock]

The monk wound system sounds cool, but great care will have to be taken to balance it.  That system could easily turn monks into ridiculously overpowered characters, and throw the game balance all out of whack.  There needs to be significant risk/reward for the monk taking wounds, a threshold they could cross where no amount of special attack use can keep up with the damage they are taking.  The closer you get to that threshold, the more powerful they become, but go over that edge, even slightly, and it's certain death.  I trust Tim & Josh will make sure to tweak the balance just right to ensure monks don't become out of control overpowered.

 

The different cultural outfits are straight up awesome.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Keyrock

[Fearabbit]

The monk sounds great, even though it's not a class I'm very interested in for my main character. But my monk party members will be very interesting to play.

That said, I agree with those who say that it does sound like a barbarian somewhat. The typical barbarian enters a berserk mode when he's low on health, which means that he can deal more damage, charge faster and/or hit multiple enemies at once when he's very wounded. This is basically what the monk does here, with the twist that, if done right, he "regains" his health by entering berserk mode.

 

I really like the culture concepts so far. Would be even better if there were more different skin tones, it seems like the two cultures on the right should have darker complexions. But this is only a small complaint and maybe the small nuances in the concept art will be stronger in the game anyway.

 

The monk wound system sounds cool, but great care will have to be taken to balance it.  That system could easily turn monks into ridiculously overpowered characters, and throw the game balance all out of whack.  There needs to be significant risk/reward for the monk taking wounds, a threshold they could cross where no amount of special attack use can keep up with the damage they are taking.  The closer you get to that threshold, the more powerful they become, but go over that edge, even slightly, and it's certain death.  I trust Tim & Josh will make sure to tweak the balance just right to ensure monks don't become out of control overpowered.

 

I think we would say the same thing about any class they explain to us. Without comparison to other classes, it always seems like the special abilities of this particular class will make it overpowered. But the other classes have special abilities too.

[J.E. Sawyer]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.  To clarify a few things:

 

* A percentage of damage done to the monk, after DT, is converted to Wound damage.  If the monk gets hit for 100 points of damage, a big chunk of that is still sailing through.

 

* Wounds are "buckets" of damage, so the monk needs to have that amount filled before they gain the Wound resource.

 

* Monks start with a limited number of Wounds they can carry at one time.  Once that limit is hit, additional damage goes straight through.  This is one reason why wearing some amount of armor can be a wise strategic decision, even for a monk.

 

* Monks' unarmed damage does increase as part of their Transcendent Suffering class ability.  This makes their attacks competitive with other fast melee weapons, but their raw damage is nowhere near as high as something like a longsword or a maul.  When fighting heavily armored opponents, monks can benefit from using other melee weapons (their special attacks still work with them).

 

* While monks do have several active-use abilities, Turning Wheel exists to give the monk a passive bonus from fighting with Wounds.  If you let a monk with Turning Wheel "ride" for a while, he or she will do additional fire damage on melee hits automatically.

 

We describe monks in a way that makes them sound powerful because we want you to look forward to playing them, but they are not invincible!  They also can't do a lot of the things that other classes can.  Their strengths are in mobility, status effects on hits, and resisting/confounding status effects on themselves.  They're intended to be melee skirmishers, but they lack the raw damage output of rogues and barbarians, they cannot "hold" enemies like fighters can, and they don't have the command/targeted buff capabilities of paladins.

[godsend1989]

And i thought Diablo 3 monk was badass, fighting on the edge of life, this could turn to be hilarious in the wrong hands.

[EmmanuelVR]

Why do some of the men show upper body skin (look at that look V cut, how insensible) yet none of the women do? That's incredibly sexist. I feel insulted, Obsidian. Please change accordingly.

 

Also monks are badass. 

[Greensleeve]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone.  To clarify a few things:

 

* A percentage of damage done to the monk, after DT, is converted to Wound damage.  If the monk gets hit for 100 points of damage, a big chunk of that is still sailing through.

 

* Wounds are "buckets" of damage, so the monk needs to have that amount filled before they gain the Wound resource.

 

* Monks start with a limited number of Wounds they can carry at one time.  Once that limit is hit, additional damage goes straight through.  This is one reason why wearing some amount of armor can be a wise strategic decision, even for a monk.

 

* Monks' unarmed damage does increase as part of their Transcendent Suffering class ability.  This makes their attacks competitive with other fast melee weapons, but their raw damage is nowhere near as high as something like a longsword or a maul.  When fighting heavily armored opponents, monks can benefit from using other melee weapons (their special attacks still work with them).

 

* While monks do have several active-use abilities, Turning Wheel exists to give the monk a passive bonus from fighting with Wounds.  If you let a monk with Turning Wheel "ride" for a while, he or she will do additional fire damage on melee hits automatically.

 

We describe monks in a way that makes them sound powerful because we want you to look forward to playing them, but they are not invincible!  They also can't do a lot of the things that other classes can.  Their strengths are in mobility, status effects on hits, and resisting/confounding status effects on themselves.  They're intended to be melee skirmishers, but they lack the raw damage output of rogues and barbarians, they cannot "hold" enemies like fighters can, and they don't have the command/targeted buff capabilities of paladins.

 

Good to see clarifications. Honestly though, I felt most of this was more or less evident in the update. 

 

Sounds like a really cool class though. I'm starting to feel a lot safer in that balance and power for classes will be maintained. 

[Labadal]

I like the sound of the monk class. I don't know why people complain about it. If you don't like monks, don't play one. It can't be any simpler. The wound mechanic sounds interesting to me. If not played right, I guess one could die very easily. I was going to use this class for my first playthrough, no matter what, but I actually like what has been described so far. It seems that you will have to weigh the pros and cons of not using armor or weapons in some encounters vs using them in others. I bet a monk could be great vs an unprotected mage or vs archers.

 

Do the monks have any passive skills they gain like they do in D&D? like speed bonus or better spell resistance?

[J.E. Sawyer]

Monks have passive abilities as well.  For example, Transcendent Suffering gives them unarmed damage and movement speed bonuses.

[Labadal]

I see, thanks for sharing that. Knowing that, will the type of armour worn by the monk have any sort of effect on passive monk abilities? Wearing armour means filling your wounds pool slower if I understand correctly, but does it have any other negative effects? Can they wear medium or heavy armour and shields without any negative effects?

[J.E. Sawyer]

Other than Wounds filling more slowly, there are no monk-specific negative effects from wearing heavier armor.  Many of their special attacks last for a duration rather than a single attack, so if they're wearing heavy armor that decreases attack speed (or using a shield or two-handed weapon that attacks more slowly), they may have fewer applications of those special attacks.  But if you need the shield for its Deflection bonus or a larger weapon for armor-penetrating capabilities, you can use them just fine.

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

somewhat but thats why i like to pick class specific.  so that the rest of the team compliments my playing style.  this makes it sound like you could play the whole game with 2 monks no problem

I think that's a byproduct of 3.5 & 4E which Sawyers seems to be drawing a lot of inspiration from. Everyone can do everything with little to no efficiency drop off.

 

 

I wouldn't characterize 3.5 or 4E that way.  Both 3.5 and 4E can have huge efficiency decreases when a character is built or geared in sub-optimal ways.  I think PE will be much more forgiving than (especially) 3.5 when it comes to build and gear choices as long as you're playing to the class' core focus.  If players put their wizard in plate armor and have them immediately run into melee with pikes while their monks hang back and take pot shots with a blunderbuss -- well, yeah, in those cases, they're not going to do very well.

[rjshae]

* Monks start with a limited number of Wounds they can carry at one time.  Once that limit is hit, additional damage goes straight through.  This is one reason why wearing some amount of armor can be a wise strategic decision, even for a monk.

 

I suspect that players may game this system by having their monk character don armor in the middle of the battle, once the wounds limit is reached. I seem to recall you could do that in the IE games--albeit with the loss of a round.

[romka-unknown]

The bottom left corner - not true! It's funny looks))) How will play in this game??? Each historical culture had their own clothes! Don't make a circus! It looks awful. Too tolerance? I'm not a racist. To be fair! Each thing must be in place. Sorry. Don't want to offend anyone.

[NerdBoner]

Any lore specific reasons behind the existance of monks in the region/world?

 

are they a secluded order or do the go out and proselytize?

 

are they religious or philosophical monks? etc.

[JFSOCC]

 

* Monks start with a limited number of Wounds they can carry at one time.  Once that limit is hit, additional damage goes straight through.  This is one reason why wearing some amount of armor can be a wise strategic decision, even for a monk.

 

I suspect that players may game this system by having their monk character don armor in the middle of the battle, once the wounds limit is reached. I seem to recall you could do that in the IE games--albeit with the loss of a round.

 

I imagine a monk in armour can take a lot of punishment, for a while. sounds like a decent way to make the enemy waste their best attacks and then get into dishing it back out.

[Osvir]

Interesting!

Love the cultures, looking awesome! :D

About the Monk, I like the concept and the idea but there's something about it I just can't put my finger on. The update did spark some new ideas by itself. Could a Monk in full plate be a different type of Monk? namely a Medieval-Mecha-Monk!

 

Regardless of those wishes, how does the Wounds function out-of-battle and in-party Wounds? Can I target the Monk and attack him with the rest of my teammates to fill those buckets of Wounds myself? 

[J.E. Sawyer]

 

* Monks start with a limited number of Wounds they can carry at one time.  Once that limit is hit, additional damage goes straight through.  This is one reason why wearing some amount of armor can be a wise strategic decision, even for a monk.

 

I suspect that players may game this system by having their monk character don armor in the middle of the battle, once the wounds limit is reached. I seem to recall you could do that in the IE games--albeit with the loss of a round.

 

You can't change armor during combat in PE.

[Monte Carlo]

I am beginning to think the word 'Monk' in of itself is almost pejorative, laden as it is with either Eastern or Western cultural significance...

 

* looks up synonyms for Monk *

 

Recluse / Cenobite / Mendicant / Pilgrim

 

Am rather tickled by Mendicant...

 

... but, personally, I prefer the idea of a 'Kinky Gimp' class with an enchanted Ball-Gag but that's enough about my weekend.

[AwesomeOcelot]

In terms of lore is this like sacrifice and sympathetic magic, is it something explored in the main quest line?