[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[Zeratul]

Disclaimer: I’m not particularly well-versed in the events of the PoE 1 and I still haven’t finished the PoE 2 so it’s entirely possible the answers to my question are out there. I also don’t want to browse the spoiler section of this forum too much because I plan to finish the game and I don’t want to know too much the upcoming events in advance. At the same time, I still feel compelled to ask this question because without the answers to it, the events of the game up to this point, well, doesn’t make much sense.

 

So, here is the longer version of the question in the thread’s name. During the meeting with Eothas at Magran’s Maw, the divine troublemaker finally reveals his plan: go to Ukaizo and destroy the Engwithan soul machinery thus freeing the mortals of Eora from the influence of Engwithan false Gods. Well, ok so far… wait, what’s that about the threat to the living things in Eora? Then comes a meeting at Onekaza’s palace and: “We must do something or we will all die”. What? And finally, there is a meeting with Gods the Pallid Knight explains that the Beyond is a reservoir which is filled by souls, which are then reincarnated into the world of the living. In order for that to happen the Wheel is required and by destroying the Engwithan machinery on Ukaizo, Eothas is going to destroy the Wheel…

 

WHAT?!!?!?

 

Let me take a moment to describe my understanding of Eora’s metaphysics and history before this moment. I believe(d) that the cycle of reincarnation is a naturally occurring thing which is necessary for the existence of life in this world (since living things need souls to live and not be hollowborn and the amount of souls is finite and constant). Engwithans interfered into this cycle in order to create their gods (and later gods of everybody else) by using their machines to redirect the flow of souls (or something like that) so the destruction of machines should be the end of gods (unless Kith willingly decide to support the Gods) and let the cycle of reincarnation return to its original state.

 

But based on the events at the Magran’s Maw and what followed, this is completely wrong. As it turns out, the Engwithan machines are what makes the Wheel turn and the cycle of reincarnation to work and the destruction of those machines will destroy the Wheel and stop the cycle. Which brings me to my final question: was there no cycle of reincarnation before Engwithans and their Gods? If the answer is “yes, there was no cycle”, how did the life existed before? If the answer is “no, there was a cycle”, why should the destruction of Engwithan machines suddenly prevent the Eoran life from reincarnating?

 

The only other explanation goes something like that: “There was the Wheel before Engwithans, but their interference somehow made the Wheel dependent on their machines effectively taking all living things in Eora hostage”. But the problem with that is I can’t remember a single mention of anything like that so far (in particular, Eothas didn’t mention anything like that to explain his actions).

 

So… What am I missing? (And I have a feeling that I’m missing quite a lot…)

Edited May 20, 2018 by Zeratul

[Katarack21]

According to Josh Sawyer, their were long explanations about how that worked form Eothas, but they cut them for pacing. Nobody noted the lack of clarity; Sawyer speculates this may be because everybody playing the game internally at that state were aware of the design documents.

Sawyer also notes that Odd Nua as discussed in the Endless Paths in the first game existed prior to the downfall of the Engwithan empire, and built the statue to pull his sons soul out of the Beyond because he didn't think it would be "reincarnated properly". So that references some form of reincarnation prior to the Engwithan interference, but we don't know what.

What Eothas did broke the process that the Engwithans built, but that doesn't mean it restored the old way things were.

[Aramintai]

Hey, if you're confused about the main plot and the ending there's a whole thread about it with all the same questions raised:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98322-ending-spoilers-the-ending-is-really-confusing/

[Skazz]

According to Josh Sawyer, their were long explanations about how that worked form Eothas, but they cut them for pacing. Nobody noted the lack of clarity; Sawyer speculates this may be because everybody playing the game internally at that state were aware of the design documents.

Sawyer also notes that Odd Nua as discussed in the Endless Paths in the first game existed prior to the downfall of the Engwithan empire, and built the statue to pull his sons soul out of the Beyond because he didn't think it would be "reincarnated properly". So that references some form of reincarnation prior to the Engwithan interference, but we don't know what.

What Eothas did broke the process that the Engwithans built, but that doesn't mean it restored the old way things were.

Where are you getting this from? When and where did Josh address the topic?

[Thetis]

 

According to Josh Sawyer, their were long explanations about how that worked form Eothas, but they cut them for pacing. Nobody noted the lack of clarity; Sawyer speculates this may be because everybody playing the game internally at that state were aware of the design documents.

Sawyer also notes that Odd Nua as discussed in the Endless Paths in the first game existed prior to the downfall of the Engwithan empire, and built the statue to pull his sons soul out of the Beyond because he didn't think it would be "reincarnated properly". So that references some form of reincarnation prior to the Engwithan interference, but we don't know what.

What Eothas did broke the process that the Engwithans built, but that doesn't mean it restored the old way things were.

Where are you getting this from? When and where did Josh address the topic?

 

on his blog

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/

[Porcelyn]

So the wheel has always been natural and the Engwithans just modded it to make their synth golds? If the wheel is entirely made by the Engeithens then how did life continue before? (I choose Rymgaurds ending for the lawls and now I'm confused.)

[Elerond]

It was bîaŵac that caused blights in PoE were caused by activation of Engwithan machines that Thaos used to feed people's souls to Woedica. As side effect of feeding people souls was that they prevented souls finding new bodies. Destruction of wheel should prevent those machines from accessing in-between, which should mean that they cannot anymore cause blights.

[morhilane]

Blights are caused by lost souls and without the Wheel to pump souls into the In-Between, there is going to be a lot more lost souls around.

[Katarack21]

It was bîaŵac that caused blights in PoE were caused by activation of Engwithan machines that Thaos used to feed people's souls to Woedica. As side effect of feeding people souls was that they prevented souls finding new bodies. Destruction of wheel should prevent those machines from accessing in-between, which should mean that they cannot anymore cause blights.

Incorrect, sir. Biawacs do make blights, but they are not the only source of blights--any lost or fragmented soul that manages to combine with some form of elemental essence with create a blight. The bestiary says they are often caused by natural disasters--tornados, rock slides, wildfires, etc.

[Mikeymoonshine]

The ammount of writing that goes into these games and they cut the parts that actually explain the plot. It does sound like he plans on adding them back in somehow though in some other formm

[takamorisan]

Either way, I just know one thing, one godhammer wasn't enough.

[Tarlonniel]

Either way, I just know one thing, one godhammer wasn't enough.

 

Nope. We need... uh, how many gods are there? Eleven?

[Icesong]

Blights are caused by lost souls and without the Wheel to pump souls into the In-Between, there is going to be a lot more lost souls around.

 

Souls are still going to the In-Between, they're just not going to the Beyond. Not that that changes your point.

[Zeratul]

Hey, if you're confused about the main plot and the ending there's a whole thread about it with all the same questions raised:

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/98322-ending-spoilers-the-ending-is-really-confusing/

As I said, I haven't finished the game yet so I don't want to read anything about the ending yet. At the same time I'm comletely confused by what's going on as is so I need to start the thread... kinda, sorta...

 

 

 

According to Josh Sawyer, their were long explanations about how that worked form Eothas, but they cut them for pacing. Nobody noted the lack of clarity; Sawyer speculates this may be because everybody playing the game internally at that state were aware of the design documents.

Sawyer also notes that Odd Nua as discussed in the Endless Paths in the first game existed prior to the downfall of the Engwithan empire, and built the statue to pull his sons soul out of the Beyond because he didn't think it would be "reincarnated properly". So that references some form of reincarnation prior to the Engwithan interference, but we don't know what.

What Eothas did broke the process that the Engwithans built, but that doesn't mean it restored the old way things were.

Where are you getting this from? When and where did Josh address the topic?

 

on his blog

 

https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/

 

"It didn't seem strictly necessary", is he serious?! The plot doesn't make any sense without those explanations...

 

According to Josh Sawyer, their were long explanations about how that worked form Eothas, but they cut them for pacing. Nobody noted the lack of clarity; Sawyer speculates this may be because everybody playing the game internally at that state were aware of the design documents.

 

Sawyer also notes that Odd Nua as discussed in the Endless Paths in the first game existed prior to the downfall of the Engwithan empire, and built the statue to pull his sons soul out of the Beyond because he didn't think it would be "reincarnated properly". So that references some form of reincarnation prior to the Engwithan interference, but we don't know what.

 

What Eothas did broke the process that the Engwithans built, but that doesn't mean it restored the old way things were.

Well, if it's true, Eothas is basically dealing with terrorists who took the whole world hostage and have to be destroyed with extreme prejudice so maybe he deserves some slack... On the other hand, it's possible that Engwithans saved all life from extinction (while taking away some small parts of the people's freedom in the process) and Eothas is just an angry fanatic and idiot. And that is exactly the choice the game gives to a player while the main character doesn't feel any need to figure out what is actually going on...

[Katarack21]

Don't forget the fact that Eothas is also rampaging through the Deadfire eating *HUNDREDS* of peoples souls. He may claim that this is the best way to do it with the fewest deaths, but he shows very little concern for the kith he's murdering.

[Katarack21]

Either way, I just know one thing, one godhammer wasn't enough.

How do you permanently kill the God of ****ing Reincarnation?!

[HooAmEye]

By taking out what causes souls to reincarnate, but to that you would have to destory the Whee...oh.  Did Eothas just want to off himself?

[Silvaren]

What was first - an egg or a chicken?

 

If engwithans created gods and Berath is the keeper of the Wheel, god of reincarnation cycle, it seams that the Wheel coudn't exist before Berath was "born".

 

Entire Deadfire plot is not necesseraily a retcon. Only a few people on Eora know anything about Engwithans. The Wheel and gods are common knowledge, but it is based on simple facts that the reincarnation exists and the gods exist. Kiths know nothing more about why and how it works. All knowledge outside the Leaden Key is only asumption. Common knowledge isn't true, it just what kiths believe based on only few evidences.

 

Like in Mass Effect series. Common knowledge is that mass relays and the Citadel were build by protheans. It isn't true.

 

What I mean, kiths don't know much about Engwithans or the Wheel or the true nature of the gods. The knowledge that the Wheel was natural or existed before the Engwithans is based on what? You had any evidence in PoE 1? Some kiths told you that and you believe them while they know nothing about nature of gods or history and work of Engwithans? I think this isn't retcon. It is just different perspective. Like world building in Mass Effect. Common knowledge can be wrong.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Silvaren

[FecklessFool]

Yeah, I feel like Josh's comment about cutting vital content just feels like an excuse to cover the inconsistency introduced by Deadfire.

 

 

It's very weird to cut that considering reading about stuff and the lore of the world is what makes the game fun. It's not like the main story has a ton of content anyway. 

 

If that content does exist, then they should just patch that into the game right now. I won't mind if it's not voiced, as long as it clarifies things. 

[Owlbear]

I think I read that somewhere just like souls can wander for ages, if left alone, before they find their way to the beyond, the reincarnation process can be done naturally, but it was slow and inefficient before the "gods". That's why they were created to govern certain aspects of life while they take a toll for their work.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Owlbear

[Tagaziel]

I think I read that somewhere just like souls can wander for ages, if left alone, before they find their way to the beyond, the reincarnation process can be done naturally, but it was slow and inefficient before the "gods". That's why they were created to govern certain aspects of life while they take a toll for their work.

I think that's it. The Wheel just speeds up the natural reincarnation process, while also granting the gods control over the entire process. It's all about control - kind of hard to appear godly when you can't ensure you work with reliable souls or reincarnate Thaos perfectly.

 

It's very weird to cut that considering reading about stuff and the lore of the world is what makes the game fun. It's not like the main story has a ton of content anyway.

The day people realize that reincarnation lore is presented to us by way of unreliable narrators is the day hell freezes over.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Tagaziel

[gkathellar]

This ... seems a lot like a vague attempt to make the Engwithans seem more sympathetic in retrospect.

 

Which is dumb and bad.

[Ildun]

I cannot recall the whole story, but I think the wheel is use to control/ manipulate the flow of soul. Remember the ending of POE1 you can do various thing with the souls?

 

I think Eothas goal is to stop mortal souls be the plaything of gods or whoever know how to control the wheel. Without the wheel mortal souls will still able to reincarnate, just randomly without previous memory?

[Zeitzbach]

This ... seems a lot like a vague attempt to make the Engwithans seem more sympathetic in retrospect.

 

Which is dumb and bad.

 

Hey, the Engwithan recycle. That keeps the world green. They are nice people now.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[mrmonocle]

Why does Sawyer think he can rip off the wheel of Saṃsāra and present it as something original? Things were better when they used refined settings like forgotten realms and not tried "to invent the wheel".