One Word - Multiclassing!

[dododad]

 

Paladin is Fighter/Priest by default

 

No a paladin is not a fight/priest in this POE

 

what's the point in Paladin/Priest, Paladin/Fighter, Fighter/Priest, then?

 

Ye conceptually it doesn't seem like these types are different but in POE1 these classes were vastly different with different abilities and different strengths so ye there is a point to all these multiclasses because they all bring different things to the tables. This isnt d&d where paladin has access to priest spells. paladins are not priest in this game at all. They are not based on gods they dont have any spells or ability overlap. Even the heal the paladin gets is different than priest heals. 

 

 

Paladin is fighter with healing powers. Ergo, fighter/priest. He's the same in peaty much every game. Tabletop or computer. Obviously he has different abilities, and what not in this game, but the definitions sticks. He is still closely related to dnd view of him, and has nothing to do with paladins in historical romances. So while he may have different abilities, they are still of the same theme. Healing and helping allies. They both do that, and when you combine them in multiclasses you're not doing much since he is a multiclass already. Plus you're in some conundrum with deity and order system.

 

Then on the other side of the spectre you have mages and cyphers. There would be some benefits combining them, but firstly, they don't go together lorewise, and secondly they're of same paininflicting profession, so in current format it would be better sticking to one to get all those juicy high level spells. Lore can be expanded, but what about extra abilities available only to multiclasses to help those that are underpowered? Not much, just restrict it to different levels. mage5/cypher5 gets exclusive combo spell for example, on first look pointless figter8/mage2 gets some high level magic infused mele ability to help him out. Something along that line.

[Aotrs Commander]

 

Paladin is fighter with healing powers. Ergo, fighter/priest. He's the same in peaty much every game. Tabletop or computer. Obviously he has different abilities, and what not in this game, but the definitions sticks. He is still closely related to dnd view of him, and has nothing to do with paladins in historical romances. So while he may have different abilities, they are still of the same theme. Healing and helping allies. They both do that, and when you combine them in multiclasses you're not doing much since he is a multiclass already. Plus you're in some conundrum with deity and order system.

 

Then on the other side of the spectre you have mages and cyphers. There would be some benefits combining them, but firstly, they don't go together lorewise, and secondly they're of same paininflicting profession, so in current format it would be better sticking to one to get all those juicy high level spells. Lore can be expanded, but what about extra abilities available only to multiclasses to help those that are underpowered? Not much, just restrict it to different levels. mage5/cypher5 gets exclusive combo spell for example, on first look pointless figter8/mage2 gets some high level magic infused mele ability to help him out. Something along that line.

 

 

But the specifcs of the abilties absolutely matter. Otherwise, you might as well say all fighters in all games are the same, or all wizards.

 

Hell, even in D&D a Paladin and a Fighter/Cleric are very different animals (well, maybe slightly less so in AD&D). Certainly in 3.x, where a cleric doesn't get all the shiny bells and whistles a Paladin does, but a cleric/fighter will get more feats and access to spells a paladin never has. (Though to be fair, a fighter/cleric in 3.x is much more likely to be only a splash of fighter on a cleric for extra feats.)

 

Assuming nothing much changes from PoE 1, a Paladin will have access to all the Paladin powers, and a Fighter/Priest will have access to the different powers than Fighters and Priests have; which means they will play differently, even if they fulfil the same broad role.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Aotrs Commander

[JerekKruger]

Actually if the classes in Deadfire are fairly similar to those in PoE then I can already envisage a rather cool Paladin/Priest build which is all about damage dealing and not at all about helping others. There are already Paladin builds that take Scion of Flame to boost the damage of Flames of Devotion and Sacred Immolation, often using various items with bound fire spells as well to maximise the benefit. Priests also have a surprisingly large repertoire of very powerful fire based spells. A Paladin/Priest could be made into a very cool frontline flame based combatant, a job I don't think either could do half as well on their own. In particular, if it were possible to get access to both Sacred Immolation and Minor Avatar (both gained at level 13) the combination would be amazing.

 

So, there you go, a Paladin/Priest build that can do something neither class really does by themselves, and in fact abandons the shared aspect of both classes.

[Archaven]

Someone pointed out to Feargus on figstarter page about this HEAD stuff (health, endurance, accuracy, deflection?).. so you can have the following combinations:

 

fighter / wizard

or

wizard / fighter

 

both class will end up being the same battlemage. but not truly the same. basically if fighter were to be picked first, basically it means Eder possibly could have better stats than said Aloth.. which he can as well multi-class as a wizard / fighter.

 

so because of companions must have their first base class, then it would possibly mean Aloth could be a much "weaker" battlemage than Eder.

it's interesting to see how they can balance this up.

[hilfazer]

Someone pointed out to Feargus on figstarter page about this HEAD stuff (health, endurance, accuracy, deflection?).. so you can have the following combinations:

 

fighter / wizard

or

wizard / fighter

 

both class will end up being the same battlemage. but not truly the same. basically if fighter were to be picked first, basically it means Eder possibly could have better stats than said Aloth.. which he can as well multi-class as a wizard / fighter.

 

so because of companions must have their first base class, then it would possibly mean Aloth could be a much "weaker" battlemage than Eder.

it's interesting to see how they can balance this up.

Fighter 1, then Wizard 1 = 30 accuracy + 20 accuracy= 50 accuracy

Wizard 1, then Fighter 1 = 20 accuracy + 30 accuracy= 50 accuracy

It's equal!

 

But it's so unbalanced. They'll need to find some hack for this.

 

Personally i'd do

"base accuracy = average(class A lvl 1 acc, class B lvl 1 acc) + X * (character lvl -1)"

but i'm just a simple person who does not understand the superiority of 5 person party limit so what do i know ):

[JerekKruger]

Fighter 1, then Wizard 1 = 30 accuracy + 20 accuracy= 50 accuracy

Wizard 1, then Fighter 1 = 20 accuracy + 30 accuracy= 50 accuracy

It's equal!

 

I very much doubt that this will be how it works since, as you go on to say, it's kinda broken.

 

At a guess: every character will start with the same base accuracy (20 perhaps) but different classes will get different accuracy bonuses per level (a fighter might get +5 whilst a mage might only get +3 say).

[theBalthazar]

Accuracy calcul for spells and talents will be integrate in "power source", no ?

 

For me, a power source is a multiplicator. [Valor of spell x power source multiplicator]. And for special case, special valor like +1 missile, each x power level source.

 

AND in power source we have a multiplicator for accuracy. It is almost certain. Like :

 

Wizard level 1  : MMM - 3 missiles +10 accuracy.

Wizard level 10 : MMM - 6 missiles + 16 accuracy.

 

AND^^ there is always base class accuracy of each class for each level like PoE 1.

Edited February 4, 2017 by theBalthazar

[PrimeJunta]

I believe Josh said somewhere that he wants to break the class/accuracy connection.

[Archaven]

I also find this "multi-classing" lore or immersion breaker on companions. Eder out a sudden became such a "good" spellcaster or Aloth more of a Priest than he is a wizard.

I'd rather they remain as their "pure class" and new companions have their own multi-class  / sub-class which heavily tie to their identity or origins.

 

Basically, options are great. Props to them that they allowing this so that players have the freedom to develop who Eder or Aloth really is. But same cannot be said for party characters limit

[theBalthazar]

I believe Josh said somewhere that he wants to break the class/accuracy connection.

 

 

It is a bad idea, because, all set up like Class 1 - class 19, the "class 1" will have a very bad accuracy...

[Archaven]

Accuracy calcul for spells and talents will be integrate in "power source", no ?

 

For me, a power source is a multiplicator. [Valor of spell x power source multiplicator]. And for special case, special valor like +1 missile, each x power level source.

 

AND in power source we have a multiplicator for accuracy. It is almost certain. Like :

 

Wizard level 1  : MMM - 3 missiles +10 accuracy.

Wizard level 10 : MMM - 6 missiles + 16 accuracy.

 

AND^^ there is always base class accuracy of each class for each level like PoE 1.

 

I think power source / level are kinda the same? Basically to really develop the characters you want, we really have to spoil ourselves on the full potential of skills/spells that were available for both classes.

 

It's also very interesting folks will start many thread about their "favorite builds" or probably some folks will be making a poecalc.com ? Some sort of character development/progression calculator how you will end up with your characters.

 

It's all new and great IMO. Also.. there's spell empowerment as well.

[FlintlockJazz]

 

After watching the video update on multiclassing, I must say I like that each class combo has a unique name like they do in Grim Dawn.  Sorry, but little touches like that touches me in my special places.

 

Looking at your avatar it seems they are touching you right now. ~laughs~

 

That avatar is of BRIAN BLESSED, THE GREATEST HAM TO EVER GRACE THIS WORLD!!!  So yeah, probably...

[Archaven]

 

I believe Josh said somewhere that he wants to break the class/accuracy connection.

 

 

It is a bad idea, because, all set up like Class 1 - class 19, the "class 1" will have a very bad accuracy...

 

 

The only reason i see why class could end up just 1 level probably due to it's base skill/talent. But due to power level, I think it make no sense for a 1/17 or 17/1 builds. Because one of the multi-class ended up "too weak". Unless the 2nd class can augment the other class, then it make sense to have builds that are 17/1 or 1/17.

 

I think most classes would end up with 14/4, 15/3, 10/8, 9/9? It all depends on what available skill or talents that available for that minimum level requirement that players want to build upon. But the power level seems to discourage this as it's really pointless to just have a few levels and mid-late game, those spells/talents may not be so "signifcantly" good and ended up being a "bad character".

Edited February 4, 2017 by Archaven

[FlintlockJazz]

Oh, another thing I noticed, Power Source sound similar in theme and intent as in GURPS.  In that you can apply a Source modifier to Powers such as Biological, Psionic, Magical, etc which apply features to make that Power more appropriate to its source and there are Power Talents that affect how good your character is with those Powers of a certain source (most of this is introduced in GURPS Powers sourcebook).

[theBalthazar]

From a certain point of view, a build should never be missed, you know. It is even written on Sawyer's table^^

 

 

"Some combos are too weak"

Edited February 4, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Eurhetemec]

The only reason i see why class could end up just 1 level probably due to it's base skill/talent. But due to power level, I think it make no sense for a 1/17 or 17/1 builds. Because one of the multi-class ended up "too weak". Unless the 2nd class can augment the other class, then it make sense to have builds that are 17/1 or 1/17.

 

There's actually another good reason that I think will account for 99% of the 1/17 builds out there - that being that many companions have a fixed base class (or a small choice). For example, Aloth has to be a Wizard at L1, but you know someone out there is going to go "It'd be so much better if he was a Cipher..." and just leave 1 level in Wizard then go Cipher the rest of the way. Similarly we'll probably see Eders who are 1 level of Fighter or Rogue (his choice), then 17 levels of Paladin or Barbarian (or even other things like Priest), and so on.

[draego]

 

The only reason i see why class could end up just 1 level probably due to it's base skill/talent. But due to power level, I think it make no sense for a 1/17 or 17/1 builds. Because one of the multi-class ended up "too weak". Unless the 2nd class can augment the other class, then it make sense to have builds that are 17/1 or 1/17.

 

There's actually another good reason that I think will account for 99% of the 1/17 builds out there - that being that many companions have a fixed base class (or a small choice). For example, Aloth has to be a Wizard at L1, but you know someone out there is going to go "It'd be so much better if he was a Cipher..." and just leave 1 level in Wizard then go Cipher the rest of the way. Similarly we'll probably see Eders who are 1 level of Fighter or Rogue (his choice), then 17 levels of Paladin or Barbarian (or even other things like Priest), and so on.

 

 

Ye there is that but also a level 17/1? the level 1 class will actually be a level 4 discipline so that doesnt seem so week. i mean imagine 4 levels of paladin or wizard or priest it seems like a viable option to give any single class just a little bit extra utility. I know that abilities like sneak attack and carnage and spells and such will scale so they wont be super op but sometimes just having a small amount of extra utility will push you build over the top. That is why to me the abilities at the end of the build need to be so painful to skip that going from an 18/0 to 17/1 will hurt and be a real choice. Maybe i am missing something about power level and accuracy like i read above but i havent heard anyone talk about that in the updates or videos. So assuming your accuracy is what it is at level 18 i dont see the issue with a little utility

Edited February 4, 2017 by jnb0364

[Gaidin]

 

Someone pointed out to Feargus on figstarter page about this HEAD stuff (health, endurance, accuracy, deflection?).. so you can have the following combinations:

 

fighter / wizard

or

wizard / fighter

 

both class will end up being the same battlemage. but not truly the same. basically if fighter were to be picked first, basically it means Eder possibly could have better stats than said Aloth.. which he can as well multi-class as a wizard / fighter.

 

so because of companions must have their first base class, then it would possibly mean Aloth could be a much "weaker" battlemage than Eder.

it's interesting to see how they can balance this up.

Fighter 1, then Wizard 1 = 30 accuracy + 20 accuracy= 50 accuracy

Wizard 1, then Fighter 1 = 20 accuracy + 30 accuracy= 50 accuracy

It's equal!

 

But it's so unbalanced. They'll need to find some hack for this.

 

Personally i'd do

"base accuracy = average(class A lvl 1 acc, class B lvl 1 acc) + X * (character lvl -1)"

but i'm just a simple person who does not understand the superiority of 5 person party limit so what do i know ):

 

Level 1 stats have to be pretty deceptive though.  How fast do you get past them?  And depending on other choices the build makes as you steam by them might the character be a frontline battlemage wielding a sword casting spells upping his accuracy or a backline battlemage throwing down fire but wielding the sword better than he used to?

[PrimeJunta]

They're going to have to rework the Chanter if they don't want it to completely break multiclassing combos. Even when applied at minimal level, chants can confer status effects that are requirements for other abilities. So a wizard with one level of chanter could combine Soft Winds with Combusting Wounds, a ranger/chanter could do the same for Predator's Sense or boost damage output with Sure-Handed Ila, a rogue could use Endless Host to qualify for sneak attack all the time, etc.

[MaxQuest]

So a wizard with one level of chanter could combine Soft Winds with Combusting Wounds, a ranger/chanter could do the same for Predator's Sense or boost damage output with Sure-Handed Ila, a rogue could use Endless Host to qualify for sneak attack all the time, etc.

Afaik:

- Combusting Wounds does not trigger from DoT damage.

- Endless Host causes Frightening effect, which does not enable Sneak Attacks.

- ranger/chanter is valid; (although Sure-Handed reloading part is suppressed by Swift Aim reloading bonus; but yes, it's great with bows and Twin-Arrows)

Edited February 4, 2017 by MaxQuest

[draego]

They're going to have to rework the Chanter if they don't want it to completely break multiclassing combos. Even when applied at minimal level, chants can confer status effects that are requirements for other abilities. So a wizard with one level of chanter could combine Soft Winds with Combusting Wounds, a ranger/chanter could do the same for Predator's Sense or boost damage output with Sure-Handed Ila, a rogue could use Endless Host to qualify for sneak attack all the time, etc.

 

That is assuming the chanters chants dont scale with level like other stuff. It may be true what you are saying but they have stated that other abilities like spells, carnage, sneak attack will scale with level so when you take first level rogue the sneak attack is small not +50% like in POE1 so i assume the same is true for chanter that the affect of chant will scale with level so its not super powerful just take an early level of chanter. 

Edited February 4, 2017 by jnb0364

[JerekKruger]

They're going to have to rework the Chanter if they don't want it to completely break multiclassing combos. Even when applied at minimal level, chants can confer status effects that are requirements for other abilities. So a wizard with one level of chanter could combine Soft Winds with Combusting Wounds, a ranger/chanter could do the same for Predator's Sense or boost damage output with Sure-Handed Ila, a rogue could use Endless Host to qualify for sneak attack all the time, etc.

 

I think it's safe to say a lot of characters and abilities will need significant reworking, as it's not hard to come up with broken multiclass combinations with the current PoE classes. For example, a Barbarian/Wizard using Citzal's Spirit Lance could, depending on exactly how carnage and the lance interact, result in one shots of big, difficult encounters and/or crash the game.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Paladin is Fighter/Priest by default

 

No a paladin is not a fight/priest in this POE

 

what's the point in Paladin/Priest, Paladin/Fighter, Fighter/Priest, then?

 

Ye conceptually it doesn't seem like these types are different but in POE1 these classes were vastly different with different abilities and different strengths so ye there is a point to all these multiclasses because they all bring different things to the tables. This isnt d&d where paladin has access to priest spells. paladins are not priest in this game at all. They are not based on gods they dont have any spells or ability overlap. Even the heal the paladin gets is different than priest heals. 

 

 

Paladin is fighter with healing powers. 

perhaps a side issue, but the above is/were untrue.  the paladin in poe were designed to be a low-maintenance and resilient support class. weren't actual meant to be equivalent o' a fighter with healing powers.  flames of devotion were a late addition to the game and it were resulting in any number o' curious balance issues for the class.  nevertheless, just 'cause the paladin o' poe shared a name with a class available in other games, the name were not indicative o' its intended role in poe.  similar, a fighter weren't 'posed to be akin to fighters from dozen o' other crpgs.  the poe fighter were 'posed to be a reliable damage dealing class, but were never envisioned to a particular noteworthy dps class.  

 

 http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66380-update-81-the-front-line-fighters-and-barbarians/?p=1460938

 

by the time poe had become 3.0, the fighter were far more similar to 2e d&d game incarnations than were the class at the start o' beta.  the 3.0 fighter could laugh off trebuchet strikes and were also an impressive dps machine with a considerable number o' per-encounter combat abilities. 

 

the names o' poe classes were a mistake.  familiar names resulted in expectations.  to match player expectations, the classes were often altered in ways which did not necessarily improve the game.  am gonna be curious to see what changes is made to the poe2 classes, 'cause, for example, the paladin were never intended to be a fighter who could heal. will obsidian attempt to turn back the clock to pre-beta poe roles and goals for classes?  doing so would likely result in classes much easier to balance, but am doubtful the obsidians wanna once again try and battle the expectations o' the fanbase.

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[theBalthazar]

In term of access of spells, the chanter need always 9 levels for dragon thrash ? Or it is 75 % also with access of power ?

 

Because there is the level of power. Scale each spell.

 

But for unlocked each level of spells and others, it is the same concept ?

Edited February 4, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Failedlegend]

I don't get all the hate for multi-classing, its a single player game, it doesnt affect you if I make a Chanter/Paladin or just a Paladin, thats my game and my story as for people saying the Multi-classing is only for power gamers thats ridiculous, power gamers will ALWAYS find the most optimal "builds" the only way to avoid that is to have ZERO options and no one wants that. Not to mention, who cares, thats what's fun for them and again it doesn't affect you.

 

If you don't want to multi-class than don't...from a roleplaying prespective it allows characters to grow organically (ie. In 3.5 I had a Paladin that took a Warlock level because he absorbed the dark energy of the BBEG to save the party) instead of choosing at Lvl 1 like 2e forced you too. So yeah sometimes I'd have players who came to my table with their characters planned from 1-20...not my preference and it really did rub me the wrong way but thats their choice as long as its not detrimental to the story and often times even those players would tend to change the build relative to what affects their character.

 

So yeah POE2 would be made an inferior game to have the 3rd edition multi-classing (dual-classing really) option removed or replaced with something more rigid but leaving it in actually doesn't affect people who dislike multi-classing at all. Ipso Facto, there's no reason to remove it...If anything the limit to two classes hurt's the "organic story-telling" aspect of multi-classing a bit so expanding it wouldn't be a bad thing...on the other had we get cool "Dual-Class Titles" so I'll compromise for that.

 

 

Sidenote: If multiplayer is added at some point I would be in favor of having option like "No multi-classing" (No X Race, No X-Class, Level Range,etc.,etc.) and the like in the host options as long as you can see that when your check out the available games list.

Edited February 4, 2017 by Failedlegend