New Real Time With Pause Dungeons & Dragons RPG - SWORD COAST LEGENDS

[archangel979]

 

 

It's interesting how cynical and critical people act about RPGs nowadays, but slap DnD in the name and it all flies away. 

Well D&D system is better than what PoE has developed. That automatically gives it a head start. Of course people are excited.

 

 

Is it? I really don't know. I do know that 3E was a step down from previous editions, but a step I could stomach. 4E was utter poop. I've really got no reason to believe that 5E is any good at all as WotC lost all credibility with me many years ago. I honestly don't like much of what I've seen Josh do to the PoE ruleset, but it still looks better than 4E to me, albeit not much.

 

What would get me to play SCL would be a compelling story, and that's what likely is going to keep me playing PoE (assuming it has one) in spite of PoE having many modern design philosophies that I consider utter poop implemented in it's mechanics.

 

In what ways exactly is 5E better than PoE?

 

Lets say it tries to fix some same things that Sawyer did try with PoE, but it actually does it well.

It also knows when not to change things that work.

 

Having a rules system that is developed for 30+years vs one developed for 2 years.. hmm, hmm.. which one is better.. I wonder..

[Tigranes]

I'll also add, from my own rewatching: fireball and call lightning are cast simultaneously. So what it seems to suggest is that at the very least, working only with what we can see, playing a mage is going to be nothing like a D&D mage. Because without assuming anything, (1) it's cooldowns, (2) there's no use-per-day, (3) casting is instantaneous - which means, apart from not having mana, it's basically closer to Diablo 2 mages or whatever.

 

We'll see. That could still be fun if it's balanced right and there is a full complement of D&D spells. But hey, as soon as you make such huge changes, "a rules system developed for 30 years" is already out the window...

[Vaeliorin]

I'm still waiting to see if it will actually be a proper D&D game. I think the video basically is deisnged to make you think BG/NWN & screams D&D at you, but this guy's observations are pertinent:

 

 

 

So, 5e is out. No need to go any further. But I will:

• The existence of Ray of Frost II means no d&d spell progression, but instead a small list of powers which are leveled up/unlocked.
• The existence of cooldowns means its not going to have d&d spell use limitations, will instead have cooldown cycles as its limiter.
• The existence of cooldowns and Ray of Frost II implies access to all unlocked powers all the time, not a limited # chosen by the day.
• The focus on co-op implies some kind of drop-in/drop-out system and enforced character balance.

Now, put all that together. You've got this co-op focused game where the spellcasters don't have the traditional d&d number-of-uses limitations, but instead have cooldowns. Normally, the spellcasters are the big guns with limited ammunition. With cooldowns implemented, though, that ain't happening. And since I don't see a mana bar, those spellcasters are going to be using their powers infinitely, limited by the cooldown cycle. Which implies that the fighters are going to have "special powers" too, with every class being roughly equal in damage output (very likely balanced around dps, healer, tank), so that the drop-in/drop-out co-op partners aren't put out that their chosen class is weaker than the others. So, everyone is going to be throwing around their "special" attacks of Whirlwind Strike II and Flurry of Blows III and Fireball IV on cooldown cycles.

 

 

The point isn't whether cooldowns are bad per se or anything. The point is, most of us are excited by this because we want a real D&D game. (And let's leave out the pointless OMFG POE SUX idiocy, because whether POE sux or rulz we'd still want an actual D&D game too.) Well, they're being coy about the details so far, but I'm not going to get my hopes up (or down) just yet.

 

That guy is apparently not familiar with 5E D&D. While I can't recall exactly what Ray of Frost is classified as in 5E (there are some cantrips that are outside of the regular spell progression, i.e. infinite cast...I don't actually own the books, but read through my nephews copy), spells don't level up damage with character level in 5E, but instead dependent on what level spell slot you use for them. For example, in order to have a magic missile equal to a 2E/3.X magic missile from a 9th level caster (5 missiles), you have to cast it from a 3rd level spell slot (which I can't imagine anyone ever doing.) It's entirely possible that Ray of Frost II is simply Ray of Frost put into a 1 level higher spell slot.

 

I'm not saying that's definitely the case, but I certainly see it as a possibility (and I say this not as a defender of this game, but as someone disappointed in what it appears we're getting when we finally get a new D&D game.)

 

Edit: All that said, it's entirely possible the guy is right. And while I personally dislike the god-like caster/packmule non-caster paradigm of non-4E versions of D&D, if I'm going to play a D&D game, I'd like it to pay more than lip service to the ruleset.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Vaeliorin

[Tigranes]

Huh. So basically a generalisation of 3E's Empower spells? That's a possibility. THere's a Mordekainen's Sword II, so I guess that could be 8th level if you are correct. As you say, we'll see when/if they release some proper details. I'm certainly not very familiar with 5E.

[Vaeliorin]

Huh. So basically a generalisation of 3E's Empower spells? That's a possibility. THere's a Mordekainen's Sword II, so I guess that could be 8th level if you are correct. As you say, we'll see when/if they release some proper details. I'm certainly not very familiar with 5E.

I suppose it's somewhat like Empower, but not anywhere near as good. I don't recall perfectly (and I didn't read all the spell descriptions because the spell section of the PH is really long in all versions and terribly formatted in the 5E PH), but I seem to recall that Fireball, for example, was 5d6 +1d6 per spell level (so level 8 spell for a 10d6 Fireball.) They really gimped how powerful spells were, to an even further extent then I would have liked.

 

Anyway, looking through the screenshots (which I hadn't previously) I also see Deathstrike II and Whirlwind Attack II, so I'd say it's actually very likely that guy is right.

[archangel979]

Ray of Frost II can be explained easily because in 5e it is a infinite cast cantrip that can be used once per round. Also its damage scales up automatically every 5 levels so to make it more simple once your caster reaches lvl 5 the spell automatically upgrades into a II version. Cooldown even makes sense for this ability to limit it being used "once per round" (I doubt SCL is going to have rounds).

 

The problem starts with other abilities, although it might not mean much if they just added a bunch of abilities to characters to showcase some things they mentioned in text. I really hope a characters that has only Ray of Frost II cannot access Mordekain Sword which is a high level spell. IF it can that means they might have take who knows how many liberties with the PnP rules.

 

They said they will give more info about the game at GDC and that they plan to have live streams to showcase the game after GDC.

 

Also even with some rule changes we need to see how it all works in the end, maybe the game still feels like playing a D&D game.

Afterall Vampire Bloodlines only resembled the PnP ruleset it was based upon but was still an awesome game.

Edited February 15, 2015 by archangel979

[Valsuelm]

 

 

 

It's interesting how cynical and critical people act about RPGs nowadays, but slap DnD in the name and it all flies away. 

Well D&D system is better than what PoE has developed. That automatically gives it a head start. Of course people are excited.

 

 

Is it? I really don't know. I do know that 3E was a step down from previous editions, but a step I could stomach. 4E was utter poop. I've really got no reason to believe that 5E is any good at all as WotC lost all credibility with me many years ago. I honestly don't like much of what I've seen Josh do to the PoE ruleset, but it still looks better than 4E to me, albeit not much.

 

What would get me to play SCL would be a compelling story, and that's what likely is going to keep me playing PoE (assuming it has one) in spite of PoE having many modern design philosophies that I consider utter poop implemented in it's mechanics.

 

In what ways exactly is 5E better than PoE?

 

Lets say it tries to fix some same things that Sawyer did try with PoE, but it actually does it well.

It also knows when not to change things that work.

 

Having a rules system that is developed for 30+years vs one developed for 2 years.. hmm, hmm.. which one is better.. I wonder..

 

 

Ambiguous answer. I asked for some exacts. A couple of examples are in order, not more ambiguous opinion.

 

And a great game need not have decades of development behind it. In fact, I'd say games that 'develop' over such a long period of time generally suck now.

 

D&D was at it's best less than 2 decades in, it didn't take it 2 decades to get there, and it's been pretty much all downhill since the mid 90s. Other examples would be World of Warcraft, which reached it's peak in quality years ago, and Magic the Gathering, which reached it's peak in quality almost two decades ago. The best games are generally not 'evolving' their design over time, and especially not doing so in order to milk it's fanbase of more money as a primary motivation for doing so as all of the previously mentioned games do. While there are variants, we are playing the same game of chess people played long long ago.

Edited February 15, 2015 by Valsuelm

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

"In what ways exactly is 5E better than PoE?"

 

Every way most likely barring a surprise.

 

I don't know, DnD has years of development behind it, but to me 3,5 is still best. The first two were a bit odd in some parts, 4 was more like a system for an MMORPG game, I have no idea how the 5th looks like, but people agree that its better than 4th.

 

5e is pretty much a more streamlined version of 3e, because Pathfinder kicked 4e in the balls and stole it's fanbase.

[Vaeliorin]

Ray of Frost II can be explained easily because in 5e it is a infinite cast cantrip that can be used once per round. Also its damage scales up automatically every 5 levels so to make it more simple once your caster reaches lvl 5 the spell automatically upgrades into a II version. Cooldown even makes sense for this ability to limit it being used "once per round" (I doubt SCL is going to have rounds).

 

The problem starts with other abilities, although it might not mean much if they just added a bunch of abilities to characters to showcase some things they mentioned in text. I really hope a characters that has only Ray of Frost II cannot access Mordekain Sword which is a high level spell. IF it can that means they might have take who knows how many liberties with the PnP rules.

Yeah, like I said, it's Deathtrike II and Whirlwind Attack II that really make me wonder (both from the dwarf character.)

 

 

Also even with some rule changes we need to see how it all works in the end, maybe the game still feels like playing a D&D game.

Afterall Vampire Bloodlines only resembled the PnP ruleset it was based upon but was still an awesome game.

Actually, I'm not a huge fan, and it's mostly because of not using the PnP ruleset, or at least something that could be played with pencil and paper (vampires with guns isn't really my thing, either.)

[archangel979]

 

 

 

 

It's interesting how cynical and critical people act about RPGs nowadays, but slap DnD in the name and it all flies away. 

Well D&D system is better than what PoE has developed. That automatically gives it a head start. Of course people are excited.

 

 

Is it? I really don't know. I do know that 3E was a step down from previous editions, but a step I could stomach. 4E was utter poop. I've really got no reason to believe that 5E is any good at all as WotC lost all credibility with me many years ago. I honestly don't like much of what I've seen Josh do to the PoE ruleset, but it still looks better than 4E to me, albeit not much.

 

What would get me to play SCL would be a compelling story, and that's what likely is going to keep me playing PoE (assuming it has one) in spite of PoE having many modern design philosophies that I consider utter poop implemented in it's mechanics.

 

In what ways exactly is 5E better than PoE?

 

Lets say it tries to fix some same things that Sawyer did try with PoE, but it actually does it well.

It also knows when not to change things that work.

 

Having a rules system that is developed for 30+years vs one developed for 2 years.. hmm, hmm.. which one is better.. I wonder..

 

 

Ambiguous answer. I asked for some exacts. A couple of examples are in order, not more ambiguous opinion.

 

And a great game need not have decades of development behind it. In fact, I'd say games that 'develop' over such a long period of time generally suck now.

 

D&D was at it's best less than 2 decades in, it didn't take it 2 decades to get there, and it's been pretty much all downhill since the mid 90s. Other examples would be World of Warcraft, which reached it's peak in quality years ago, and Magic the Gathering, which reached it's peak in quality almost two decades ago. The best games are generally not 'evolving' their design over time, and especially not doing so in order to milk it's fanbase of more money as a primary motivation for doing so as all of the previously mentioned games do. While there are variants, we are playing the same game of chess people played long long ago.

 

- Like PoE, 5e tries to make all classes more useful instead of it being a wizard show but it does so in a different way. It leaves spells pretty powerful but limits how often you can use them. It also lets usually more mundane classes have subclasses that have more or less active abilities (like fighter can choose to be a Champion (passive), a Battle Master(uses maneuvers) or a Eldritch Knight(uses some spells))

- 5e reduces the need to have clerics in party by letting all characters heal some of their wounds between combat. Unlike PoE it does not remove Cleric ability to heal their allies.

- 5e uses a unified basic mechanic that governs weapon and spell attacks by using something called a proficiency bonus that is only dependent on character level and not class level. Those with weapon proficiency get it as a bonus to their weapon attacks and spellcasters use it to determine the spell difficulty. PoE also uses a unified roll for weapon and spells but they also use a graze and critical system all connected to this which is worse in my opinion.

- 5e solves the problem of some attributes being less useful by making all 6 attributes used to save vs different effects and also by not strictly tying skill use to specific attribute but letting players and DM use other attribute in right situation to solve problems with skills. It does not go out of its way to completely remove any realism from attributes like PoE does for the sake of "balance".

- health of characters and creatures and damage done stays at low number and never goes into MMO spheres. I feel at higher levels PoE monsters will have life in thousands. It helps that armor does not reduce damage but only reduces hit chance unlike PoE.

- It uses bound accuracy system where to hit bonus always stays pretty low but so does armor class. It creates a system where no matter your level you will always fear big enough number of lower level enemies. In PoE you will get your deflection high enough so you never need to worry about those low level enemies.

[Mamoulian War]

 

 

 

 

 

It's interesting how cynical and critical people act about RPGs nowadays, but slap DnD in the name and it all flies away. 

Well D&D system is better than what PoE has developed. That automatically gives it a head start. Of course people are excited.

 

 

Is it? I really don't know. I do know that 3E was a step down from previous editions, but a step I could stomach. 4E was utter poop. I've really got no reason to believe that 5E is any good at all as WotC lost all credibility with me many years ago. I honestly don't like much of what I've seen Josh do to the PoE ruleset, but it still looks better than 4E to me, albeit not much.

 

What would get me to play SCL would be a compelling story, and that's what likely is going to keep me playing PoE (assuming it has one) in spite of PoE having many modern design philosophies that I consider utter poop implemented in it's mechanics.

 

In what ways exactly is 5E better than PoE?

 

Lets say it tries to fix some same things that Sawyer did try with PoE, but it actually does it well.

It also knows when not to change things that work.

 

Having a rules system that is developed for 30+years vs one developed for 2 years.. hmm, hmm.. which one is better.. I wonder..

 

 

Ambiguous answer. I asked for some exacts. A couple of examples are in order, not more ambiguous opinion.

 

And a great game need not have decades of development behind it. In fact, I'd say games that 'develop' over such a long period of time generally suck now.

 

D&D was at it's best less than 2 decades in, it didn't take it 2 decades to get there, and it's been pretty much all downhill since the mid 90s. Other examples would be World of Warcraft, which reached it's peak in quality years ago, and Magic the Gathering, which reached it's peak in quality almost two decades ago. The best games are generally not 'evolving' their design over time, and especially not doing so in order to milk it's fanbase of more money as a primary motivation for doing so as all of the previously mentioned games do. While there are variants, we are playing the same game of chess people played long long ago.

 

- Like PoE, 5e tries to make all classes more useful instead of it being a wizard show but it does so in a different way. It leaves spells pretty powerful but limits how often you can use them. It also lets usually more mundane classes have subclasses that have more or less active abilities (like fighter can choose to be a Champion (passive), a Battle Master(uses maneuvers) or a Eldritch Knight(uses some spells))

- 5e reduces the need to have clerics in party by letting all characters heal some of their wounds between combat. Unlike PoE it does not remove Cleric ability to heal their allies.

- 5e uses a unified basic mechanic that governs weapon and spell attacks by using something called a proficiency bonus that is only dependent on character level and not class level. Those with weapon proficiency get it as a bonus to their weapon attacks and spellcasters use it to determine the spell difficulty. PoE also uses a unified roll for weapon and spells but they also use a graze and critical system all connected to this which is worse in my opinion.

- 5e solves the problem of some attributes being less useful by making all 6 attributes used to save vs different effects and also by not strictly tying skill use to specific attribute but letting players and DM use other attribute in right situation to solve problems with skills. It does not go out of its way to completely remove any realism from attributes like PoE does for the sake of "balance".

- health of characters and creatures and damage done stays at low number and never goes into MMO spheres. I feel at higher levels PoE monsters will have life in thousands. It helps that armor does not reduce damage but only reduces hit chance unlike PoE.

- It uses bound accuracy system where to hit bonus always stays pretty low but so does armor class. It creates a system where no matter your level you will always fear big enough number of lower level enemies. In PoE you will get your deflection high enough so you never need to worry about those low level enemies.

 

 

You named almost all of the reasons, why I am currently playing Pathfinder and not DnD

[daveyd]

I wish someone could make a spiritual successor of ToEE (by which I mean a turn-based tactical D&D CRPG; I don't necessarily have any interest in the Greyhawk setting and that game was severely lacking in content).  I will still happily play Real-time with pause games, but I've never seem the battle system implemented that well..  I'm always fighting with the controls / interface at some point and left thinking "Man, this game would be better if it were turn-based".  

[HoonDing]

Just let me kill Drizzt and you have a pre-order.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I need my D&D fix...SO BAD!!!

[Amentep]

Well I'll watch for reviews and comments to see if I can gage whether the single player campaign is worth it or not.

[rjshae]

I wish someone could make a spiritual successor of ToEE (by which I mean a turn-based tactical D&D CRPG; I don't necessarily have any interest in the Greyhawk setting and that game was severely lacking in content).  I will still happily play Real-time with pause games, but I've never seem the battle system implemented that well..  I'm always fighting with the controls / interface at some point and left thinking "Man, this game would be better if it were turn-based".  

 

I had high hopes for Chaos Chronicles in that regard--it was turn-based with a hex grid, no less. Unfortunately that effort died rather unpleasantly.

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Come on. What's not to like?

 

We can see Dodge, Resist Piercing, and here's the latest update for the SWC community:

 

"Hello everyone,

 

My name is Dan Tudge and I’m the director of Sword Coast Legends and president of n-Space. We’re all very happy to be finally be sharing SCL with the world and are very thankful that you have chosen to be a part of its creation. We've already seen a lot of questions on the boards here and while there is much we can’t talk about I’m going to do my best to answer what I can:

 

Will there be a Mac version of this game? Boom! Right out of the gate something I cannot talk about! We’re not talking about additional SKUs right now.

 

Will there be micro-transactions, or content locked behind a price tag? I can understand the concern around micro-transactions and assure you that SCL is a fully featured RPG that is not “locked behind micro-transactions.” Much like the table-top, we do plan on continuing to create adventures for both DMs and players long after launch. We have a lot of stories to tell, characters to meet and places to visit, but we cannot create them all before launch.  We are going to keep creating content as long as you keep playing!

 

How long is the single player campaign? While we’re not talking about the campaign in detail right now but I can tell you this: It’s not going to be short! A great RPG isn’t something you finish over a weekend and SCL certainly won’t be finished in a weekend either.

 

What exactly is the Design Council? Access to special forums that will help us, the developers, make decisions that mold and shape SCL.

 

What exactly is early access? (Roughly how long is it?) We actually can’t say just how long early access will be just yet, however we can say that you’ll get ample time to adventure prior to launch.

 

Will there be an alpha or beta test? We’re not talking about alpha or beta testing right now.

 

Can you explain more about how DM mode works and the DM toolset? The DM can fully customize the player experience, significantly altering an adventure by changing encounters, placing traps, spawning monsters, creating quest NPCs, generating secret areas, locking doors - all in real-time. There are also offline campaign tools that enable DMs to build campaigns for their players - more about that later.

 

Are any localizations planned? We understand that there are a lot of RPGs players that love to play in a language other than English and we are evaluating additional localized versions right now – more details to come.

 

Are there any plans for the game on SteamOS/Linux? We’re not talking about additional skus right now.

 

Will there be Romances in the game? A hallmark of a great RPGs is the meaningful companions you meet along the way and how they react the choices you make in your story. These companions become your “friends”, ones you remember long after playing the game - characters like Minsc and Jaheira from the Baldur’s Gate series or Alistair and Morrigan from Dragon Age: Origins. In SCL we’re creating companions that stand tall within that legacy. Will you be able to romance them? You’ll have to wait and see. J

 

Will Sword Coast Legends be separate canon from the novels? We’re working in tight coordination with Wizards of the Coast and have created an original story for SCL, one that is tightly woven into Forgotten Realms lore.

 

How do you coordinate with Wizards on lore/content? For two years we've worked very closely with the D&D team at Wizards of the Coast to ensure players get a true “D&D experience.” I would also mention that we’re all fans of tabletop D&D (and the Forgotten Realms) here. Many of the Sword Coast Legends team plays D&D several times a week and have done so for years. In fact, several of our story ideas have come from our personal campaigns!

 

Can you tell us more details about the Belaphoss Statue? Right now I can tell you that it looks awesome and will be shipped to your house closer to launch.

 

Will the camera be able to rotate, move and zoom in and out? Absolutely, and in single player you’ll be able to pause with the spacebar and issue tactics old school!

 

How will movement be handled in the game? You will move around the game with your mouse using point and click.

 

Will the single player campaign be playable coop? More details on that later!

 

Any idea exactly what the tome of knowledge is? Reading the Tome of Knowledge will give players additional points to spend on their character’s ability scores and class features (spells and abilities).

 

You’re a big part of SCL now so please keep your questions, comments and feedback coming!

 

Best,

 

Dan Tudge

Director, Sword Coast Legends"

 

EDIT: I have always wanted to cut down D&D parties to four party members, and this seem like it's happening here. Six is a bit busy, methinks.

Edited February 18, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[archangel979]

We can also critical miss and save vs spells. It still does not make it a (good) D&D game. That also depends on quality of writing and complexity of character creation and how good is item hunt and equipping characters. If it is like DA2 where you only equipped weapons and armor then it will not be good enough.

 

It will also depend upon how challenging and tactical combat is. D:OS showed us that you can sell a game that has deeper tactical options.

 

For example NWN1/2 had all of that but they fracked up in important parts as well (NWN1 in not letting you have a full party and real tactical view), NWN2 in bad encounter design, rest anywhere without limitation and terrible terrible camera that you had to fight all the time.

Edited February 18, 2015 by archangel979

[Gfted1]

Must....resist....preordering....

[ShadySands]

Join me in finding a few others and getting it for half price with the 5 pack

[Gfted1]

I thought about that when you first mentioned it but I couldn't figure out an easy way to pay you (I don't have Paypal / whatever).

[archangel979]

Join me in finding a few others and getting it for half price with the 5 pack

I think only one of the 5 gets the extra stuff. The 4 guys get just the key.

At least it is not clear how that part works. Also it is not half price of just a digital download version but Deluxe package and possibly only for one guy.

Edited February 18, 2015 by archangel979

[Gfted1]

  Bummer, but now that you mention it, that makes sense.

[ShadySands]

Yeah, looks that way now that I double checked. One person gets the deluxe version for half price and the 4 others get the standard version for 5 bucks less, assuming everyone pitches in equally.

 

I guess it's still a deal but nearly as exciting of one

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah, I really want that Lost Mine tileset too, since they have now confirmed that you for instance can create the entire basic set adventure of the same name using the SCL tools!

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1238/feature/9410/page/2

 

OMG!!!!    

 

I have waited like seven years for a D&D toolset like that.

 

The first game will include six classes and five races - see my link.

5 races available on launch: Dwarf, Elf, Half-Elf, Halfling, and Human
6 classes: cleric, fighter, paladin, ranger rogue, and wizard

 

Tiefling is looking likely as an upcoming candidate, and half-orc as well.

 

Also, they intend to expand and delivering tons of adventures from all over Faerun. In short, that mid-sized studio is going big.

Edited February 18, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot