Are they even listening to our feedback?

[Starwars]

 

 

No, they are not listening and they are not delivering what they promised either. I didn't back an isometric stealth game with pointless and dull combat, a lackluster skill/trait system and an impotent attribute system. 

 

Actually, you did. 

[Sensuki]

They did that. Also the music and the writing.

Ehhh, not quite on the writing. The actual writing as in the words in the dialogue were good, but story wise at least Dead Man's Switch fell apart half way through. The scene where the (totally obvious) murderer ham-fistedly shows up at the Crime Scene was cringe-worthy.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Sensuki

[Ganrich]

 

Hairbrained Schemes nailed the art style, if anything.

 

They did that. Also the music and the writing.

 

 

The Editor is pretty powerful as well.  I have played some really good mods.  I think the RPG world is better for having SRR as a whole, and I look forward to HBS continuing it.  IMHO it can only get better.  They proved that to me with Dragonfall.

 

On the note of the OP.... Yes, they are listening, but 1) changes don't occur overnight, 2) they don't have time to discuss every issue that is discussed here, 3) some things will change while others won't (whether you like the system or not), and 4) these forums have died from the state of the initial beta release (many can't play because of bugs) and I expect some awesome, new critiques and feedback from the moment the patch drops.

[HoonDing]

Of course they are listening. It's not like they have your Reichsmark already.

 

[Ink Blot]

Helm: They do listen, I assure you, but that's not the same thing as adapting the game at our beck and call. Fear not, young Padawan. Those systems can be remade and be heavily tweaked. Also, hopefully, we'll get to see stuff that will get us that comfort-CRPG-feel back. As for promises. It was a Kickstarter, so basically we donated money for a good cause in the hope that it will turn into something we really enjoy playing, nothing more, nothing less. This coming months will tell If I am right. Until then, chin up.

I don't know. I think he has a valid concern. At the very least, what they seem to be delivering as indicated by the beta, and what many were led to expect via the kickstarter campaign are quite different. I'm personally okay with what I've seen of the game and am pretty confident that it's going to be a good, fun experience when it's released because - as you noted - much can be tweaked. But I'm also pretty confident it won't be nearly what I had pictured while the KS was running. This game is so far looking very different from what I would have expected from a spiritual blend of IWD, BG, and PS:T.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I can't argue with that. And knowing Helm, he's intensely aware of that fact. Still, lots of things happen in the last months of a CRPG. Just take a look at D:OS. The amount of systemic changes made during a similar timespan was staggering. Bluntly put:

 

If OE doesn't deliver what many of their backers had hoped for, they have failed their Kickstarter vision, and that will bite them in the rears big time.

Edited September 3, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sarex]

I can't argue with that. And knowing Helm, he's intensely aware of that fact. Still, lot of things happen in the last months of a CRPG. Just take a look at D:OS. The amount of systemic changes made during a similar timespan was staggering. Bluntly put:

 

If OE doesn't deliver what many of their backers had hoped for, they have failed their Kickstarter vision, and that will bite them in the rears big time.

 

I think they are very aware of that and I think that they regret immensely not being clearer during their KS. Then again they wouldn't have made as much of the KS if Josh was upfront about his feelings on BG and what he wanted to change.

 

Time will show if they made a mistake with how they handled the KS.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Yeah. Some of it wasn't clear enough, at least, or it should have been clarified ASAP. When stuff like that gets left hanging, strange things happen when dreams and expectations all of the sudden collide with reality and concrete design decisions.

Edited September 3, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[khermann]

Hairbrained Schemes nailed the art style, if anything.

I agree with this statement

[Tartantyco]

According to Helm, they apparently promised "Kill-XP: The Game" during their Kickstarter campaign. To those of us who actually understand that the IE games are a little more than just Kill-XP and DnD, Obsidian seem to be right on course with Pillars of Eternity.

[C2B]

 

Helm: They do listen, I assure you, but that's not the same thing as adapting the game at our beck and call. Fear not, young Padawan. Those systems can be remade and be heavily tweaked. Also, hopefully, we'll get to see stuff that will get us that comfort-CRPG-feel back. As for promises. It was a Kickstarter, so basically we donated money for a good cause in the hope that it will turn into something we really enjoy playing, nothing more, nothing less. This coming months will tell If I am right. Until then, chin up.

I don't know. I think he has a valid concern. At the very least, what they seem to be delivering as indicated by the beta, and what many were led to expect via the kickstarter campaign are quite different. I'm personally okay with what I've seen of the game and am pretty confident that it's going to be a good, fun experience when it's released because - as you noted - much can be tweaked. But I'm also pretty confident it won't be nearly what I had pictured while the KS was running. This game is so far looking very different from what I would have expected from a spiritual blend of IWD, BG, and PS:T.

 

 

They said from the very beginning though that they are not going to use D&D. What more could they have explained at that point in time? Its not like they had any real design done.

 

The only way this information could have been provided is if they already had begun working on the game. Yet, at that time Obsidian was struggeling as is (having needed to lay off a third of their company just months before and desperatly looking for a new contract), everyone was crying that they wanted a Obsidian Kickstarter NOW and, in the same vein, everyone was talking about how Kickstarter was a fad and you had to do it RIGHT NOW. 

 

Its easy to note these things in retrospect. But it was quite a different situation back then.

 

 

As for Sawyer. It's not like he ever hid his feelings for BGII and critisisms either. All that stuff he mentioned way before the Kickstarter.

Edited September 3, 2014 by C2B

[Sarex]

Yeah. Some of it wasn't clear enough, at least, or it should have been clarified ASAP. When stuff like that get left hanging, strange things happen when dreams and expectations all of the sudden collide with reality and concrete design decisions.

 

I mean I do get that most of the people didn't really go in depth in to the KS pitch and probably just watched the video and read the first paragraph, but this isn't a court room and it won't help them that they were technically right. When/if those people play the game and figure out that this isn't what they payed for, it's going to hurt OE regardless.

 

Well IF the game doesn't deliver on the promise of the spiritual successor at least they will get a lesson out of it, let's just hope it doesn't cost them too much.

[Monte Carlo]

Yeah it was a genius idea to make a guy who didn't like the main IE games the design lead on their 'spiritual successor.'

[Helm]

According to Helm, they apparently promised "Kill-XP: The Game" during their Kickstarter campaign. To those of us who actually understand that the IE games are a little more than just Kill-XP and DnD, Obsidian seem to be right on course with Pillars of Eternity.

Well, I wasn't expecting Josh Sawyer's Quest: The Quest for Quests, I was expecting something that actually rewards the player for his achievements, which includes combat. You know, like in the IE games.

 

Nice strawman BTW - 8/10

[PrimeJunta]

Man, these mood swings.

 

I went back to the KS a while back, read through the original pitch pretty carefully and skimmed through the more important updates.

 

From where I'm at, the mission has drifted remarkably little. There was a lot left unsaid there, of course, but most of the things people are complaining about the most loudly were actually explicitly stated. I agree that dropping combat XP was done a bit stealthily and it does represent a significant departure from the IE precedents, but the rest of it is all there. RTwP party-based combat, check. Fighter-ranger-priest-wizard-rogue, check. Fireball, Knockdown, Magic Missile, check. Big bestiary, check. Map with location you click between to travel, check. Pre-rendered 2D art, check. Classes, levels, XP, spell levels, six attributes, gain level 3 spells on level 5, check, check, check, check, check, check. Even the UI looks like the IE engine ones. If it was any more like the IE games it'd be a damn carbon copy, which would be boring.

 

For those of you saying that this is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!11one! than the IE games, please grow up. It's not. Really, it isn't. As a thought experiment: which series of games does P:E resemble more than the IE games and why? Discuss.

 

(Darklands? Oh please. Darklands had learn-by-doing character advancement, big-time dominant strategies (heavy plate FTW for everybody), completely different character generation and skill system, completely different-flavored, pseudo-historical world, and to be able to get anywhere at all you had to grind like a porn star. Those CYA panels do not make this a Darklands clone. Seriously.)

[PrimeJunta]

Yeah it was a genius idea to make a guy who didn't like the main IE games the design lead on their 'spiritual successor.'

 

403 millihelms.

[Ink Blot]

They said from the very beginning though that they are not going to use D&D. What more could they have explained at that point in time? Its not like they had any real design done.

Nowhere in my post did I even mention D&D. I knew when I threw money at them that the system wasn't going to be D&D (although it's interesting that the system they went with is very similar to 4th Edition D&D).

 

As for Sawyer not hiding his feelings on BG, I was completely unaware of it. Granted, I'm not the rabid fan type that seeks out every scrap of info and post that the devs make, but I followed the KS campaign pretty closely and was pretty active on the boards here as well. I had no idea of Sawyer's disdain for the BG games.

[Razsius]

SRR was a thoroughly mediocre game (or at least the one I played was).  Combat was piss easy even on Hard.  You hired mercs instead of real companions and the ones I did get I didn't really care about at all.  I realize Jake was in the first game but i'm not sure why Harlequin is supposed to be cool.  That telegraphing of both villians in DMS was one of the worst things i've ever seen. Leveling up didn't seem to matter all that much.  Just kinda "meh" all around. Oh and "Space bugs! RAWR!"

 

I definitely agree with Sensuki about the writing.  When you compare it to something like The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky it ends up looking like trash.

 

Art and music were about the only things they nailed and I tend to place a much lesser value on art as it fades (sometimes quickly) with time.

 

 

 

I can't argue with that. And knowing Helm, he's intensely aware of that fact. Still, lot of things happen in the last months of a CRPG. Just take a look at D:OS. The amount of systemic changes made during a similar timespan was staggering. Bluntly put:

 

If OE doesn't deliver what many of their backers had hoped for, they have failed their Kickstarter vision, and that will bite them in the rears big time.

 

I think they are very aware of that and I think that they regret immensely not being clearer during their KS. Then again they wouldn't have made as much of the KS if Josh was upfront about his feelings on BG and what he wanted to change.

 

Time will show if they made a mistake with how they handled the KS.

 

 

Definitely agree with this.  Helm might blow things out of proportion a lot of the time but I just think he's a very, very, VERY big fan of the IE games and maybe BG in general which would reflect my own feelings on the matter.  He's a really passionate guy and likely doesn't want Obsidian Entertainment to screw this game up so he LOUDLY proclaims what he deems is wrong with said game.  I agree with some of his sentiments.  Obsidian damn well better have known what they were getting into with that kickstarter.  They didn't promise just a really good game that sorta resembles the IE games.  No, they promised a spiritual successor to them.  Yes, a successor to what was perhaps considered by many a golden age of crpgs.  No pressure there Obsidian no pressure at all and yet every interview I hear or see there doesn't actually seem to be any with perhaps the exception of Feargus who basically said "we will see."

 

What I do see is a game that's sort of based off the IE games yet hits me with none of the nostalgia of them.  Close to everything is incredibly different from what I remember.  I see some of the elements of them hidden away in the back but they certainly aren't at the forefront and instead I see degenerate game systems in place that remind me that I may never get that experience I once had (Josh might dislike degenerate gameplay but i loathe degenerate game systems).

 

Only time will tell if this thing ends up being the "successor" or not.

[Sarex]

Its easy to note these things in retrospect. But it was quite a different situation back then.

 

 

As for Sawyer. It's not like he ever hid his feelings for BGII and critisisms either. All that stuff he mentioned way before the Kickstarter.

 

Yeah however it turns out, it's a lesson learned for them.

 

As for Sawyer, it's not really fair to say that. It's not like the people followed the forums and his social networks, they only knew he was lead on IWD2, which continued in the vain of the IE games. I agree with Monte, it was a bad idea to put a man who doesn't like BG in charge of it's spiritual successor. I'm not saying he can't make a good game, but the fact is that he turned a slam dunk for OE in to a huge gamble.

[PrimeJunta]

Edit: never mind. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[IndiraLightfoot]

SRR was a thoroughly mediocre game (or at least the one I played was).  Combat was piss easy even on Hard.  You hired mercs instead of real companions and the ones I did get I didn't really care about at all.  I realize Jake was in the first game but i'm not sure why Harlequin is supposed to be cool.  That telegraphing of both villians in DMS was one of the worst things i've ever seen. Leveling up didn't seem to matter all that much.  Just kinda "meh" all around. Oh and "Space bugs! RAWR!"

 

I definitely agree with Sensuki about the writing.  When you compare it to something like The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky it ends up looking like trash.

 

Art and music were about the only things they nailed and I tend to place a much lesser value on art as it fades (sometimes quickly) with time.

 

 

 

I can't argue with that. And knowing Helm, he's intensely aware of that fact. Still, lot of things happen in the last months of a CRPG. Just take a look at D:OS. The amount of systemic changes made during a similar timespan was staggering. Bluntly put:

 

If OE doesn't deliver what many of their backers had hoped for, they have failed their Kickstarter vision, and that will bite them in the rears big time.

 

I think they are very aware of that and I think that they regret immensely not being clearer during their KS. Then again they wouldn't have made as much of the KS if Josh was upfront about his feelings on BG and what he wanted to change.

 

Time will show if they made a mistake with how they handled the KS.

 

 

Definitely agree with this.  Helm might blow things out of proportion a lot of the time but I just think he's a very, very, VERY big fan of the IE games and maybe BG in general which would reflect my own feelings on the matter.  He's a really passionate guy and likely doesn't want Obsidian Entertainment to screw this game up so he LOUDLY proclaims what he deems is wrong with said game.  I agree with some of his sentiments.  Obsidian damn well better have known what they were getting into with that kickstarter.  They didn't promise just a really good game that sorta resembles the IE games.  No, they promised a spiritual successor to them.  Yes, a successor to what was perhaps considered by many a golden age of crpgs.  No pressure there Obsidian no pressure at all and yet every interview I hear or see there doesn't actually seem to be any with perhaps the exception of Feargus who basically said "we will see."

 

What I do see is a game that's sort of based off the IE games yet hits me with none of the nostalgia of them.  Close to everything is incredibly different from what I remember.  I see some of the elements of them hidden away in the back but they certainly aren't at the forefront and instead I see degenerate game systems in place that remind me that I may never get that experience I once had (Josh might dislike degenerate gameplay but i loathe degenerate game systems).

 

Only time will tell if this thing ends up being the "successor" or not.

In a nutshell, a hard nutshell!

[Razsius]

It was a pretty short game though (or at least DMS was).  I have 19 hours clocked in it and it takes me forever to play anything.

[Sensuki]

While I completely disagree with Josh about the BG2 Density issue (I think that was one of the things that made it exemplary), "In between BG1 and BG2" is not a bad target in any way for many things.

[Gfted1]

Granted, I'm not the rabid fan type that seeks out every scrap of info and post that the devs make, but I followed the KS campaign pretty closely and was pretty active on the boards here as well. I had no idea of Sawyer's disdain for the BG games.

Heh, I sometimes wonder about the 99% of backers that don't frequent the forum are going to react. I think a lot of backers simply took the "IE experience" at face value and while we can do a bunch of mental gymnastics to point out this or that feature, at the end of the day it doesn't feel IE-like to me. Were going to need more moderators in a few months...

[swordofthesith]

RE the KS Goals for Pillars of Eternity and fidelity to those goals: +1 

 

 

From where I'm at, the mission has drifted remarkably little. There was a lot left unsaid there, of course, but most of the things people are complaining about the most loudly were actually explicitly stated. I agree that dropping combat XP was done a bit stealthily and it does represent a significant departure from the IE precedents, but the rest of it is all there. RTwP party-based combat, check. Fighter-ranger-priest-wizard-rogue, check. Fireball, Knockdown, Magic Missile, check. Big bestiary, check. Map with location you click between to travel, check. Pre-rendered 2D art, check. Classes, levels, XP, spell levels, six attributes, gain level 3 spells on level 5, check, check, check, check, check, check. Even the UI looks like the IE engine ones. If it was any more like the IE games it'd be a damn carbon copy, which would be boring.

 

Edited September 3, 2014 by swordofthesith