Pretty disappointed, this launches in December?

[Ganrich]

Yeah, I am in the same boat with Zombies.  The way I feel about Zombies is pretty much how MCA feels about Elves.  It is pretty close to a deep-seated hate. 

 

I always hoped for something like the Dark Tower in a cRPG. 

[Zeckul]

Some thoughts:

 

Some gameplay things are very broken and in very obvious ways - poor party and monster AI, combat responsiveness in general - but these might be relatively easy to fix. What takes the most time is polishing all the content, gameplay can feel pretty rough quite late in development. I don't think we can conclude with any certainty that the game will be delayed based on gameplay bugs in the current beta.

 

That said, gameplay is so broken currently that I wonder how they're able to iterate on it effectively. I mean above all it has to feel fun and it's impossible to get much fun in its current state, regardless of how well the underlying system is theoretically designed.

 

Lack of a bugtracker - I guess they don't really intend on using us as formal QA at all, although that is kind of a missed opportunity. As I understand, they have some QA people reading all the forum threads in the bugs section and doing the filtering and formalizing, so it's not worthless to report bugs, although it's hard to tell if something was reported before - note that even with a good bugtracker it's still hard to identify duplicates as different people report the same thing in completely different words.

 

I'm personally not participating much in bug reporting due to other time constraints (I actually work on a large software application for a living, so bug fixing is my life already), but I encourage those with the possibility and inclination of participating to continue reporting problems, as this can only help make this game what it ought to be. By all means, keep complaining, but don't lose hope

Edited August 29, 2014 by Zeckul

[Sensuki]

Feargus does like to babble a lot when he's not sure about something, but that Matt Chat has me a little worried that this game is going to have a rushed release. Game might end up shipping with many sub-par systems and UIs and worse AI than BG1.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Sensuki

[Karkarov]

Just saying the definition of "beta" varies. You've probably heard of the Steam Early Access program. Obsidian seemed unwilling to put this beta up for sale there, and at the time we didn't understand exactly what they were so afraid of. Well, now we know - it's clear that their definition of "beta" is something that isn't really suitable for a mass audience. At least, not at the beginning.

Exactly.  Eternity is clearly in a real beta.  Steam Early Access games like Starbound are not "beta" they are finished games where the dev's just haven't put in all the final features yet but want to go into a paid "beta" so they can start making money on a basically done game now and then every month or so add a little here, or a little there, then maybe 6 months or a year later admit they aren't in "beta" and call it a real release.

 

Obsidian knows what they are doing, lets wait for a patch or two before we all assume the game sucks and has no chance of being good.

[prodigydancer]

If Obsidian is serious about delivering a finished and satisfying product there NO WAI this game will be ready for release in six months. Mid to late 2015 could be a reasonable goal.

 

P.S. If I were a backer I'd start a petition documenting all major flaws and specifically pointing out the issues that have to be resolved prior to release. You guys may consider this a suggestion.

Edited August 29, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Elerond]

Feargus does like to babble a lot when he's not sure about something, but that Matt Chat has me a little worried that this game is going to have a rushed release. Game might end up shipping with many sub-par systems and UIs and worse AI than BG1.

They have time to make multiple iterations of those in couple months. Which of course don't mean that they can surpass BG1 in quality, but then reason is probably somewhere else than they didn't have enough time. 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Q1 2015 makes more sense. I'd be cool with that.

 

 

I have experience in beta testing numerous other RPGs, Wasteland 2, D:OS, Blackgaurds, Might & Magic X, Dead State, and so on (yeah, i'm an RPG freak). This game is by far the worst of the bunch that I have playtested and is obviously still in a pre-alpha state, I wouldn't be surprised if what we are playing is the first playable build.

 

There is a lot of fixing that needs to be done, even a lot of the assets are missing; in my opinion the mechanics and systems design is also very (very, very) underwhelming. People who think that this could still be released in Q4/2015 or even Q1/2015 are being wildly optimistic IMO.

Feargus just confirmed in Matt Chat that it will be released this year! And the release date will be dropped next week. Now wonder we don't get much of devs here on the forums and no update - they're busy as bees patching this up.

[Sensuki]

Which of course don't mean that they can surpass BG1 in quality, but then reason is probably somewhere else than they didn't have enough time.

Yeppppp

[Shevek]

as for future games, Gromnir has frequent pushed the idea o' a kinda pony-express time period game (admitted a very limited window) set in US mid west or south west but with magic n' such.

I like the Pony Express/Wild West idea but I would go no magic. Ever read Blood Meridian? Fantastic book. Great Western ambiance but no magic stuff.

[khermann]

Yeah i have seen three different interviews, including that one, all pretty firm and confident about December or "end if the year", same diff.

 

We'll see.

[Flow]

If Obsidian is serious about delivering a finished and satisfying product there NO WAI this game will be ready for release in six months. Mid to late 2015 could be a reasonable goal.

 

P.S. If I were a backer I'd start a petition documenting all major flaws and specifically pointing out the issues that have to be resolved prior to release. You guys may consider this a suggestion.

 

But is a petition really the right way to go? I mean, if only we had a forum for posting our suggestions, criticisms, and bug reports. That would the coolest thing ever.

[Arsene Lupin]

I think the main problem here is simply that, for all their KS updates, Obsidian really is not very communicative. At all. It really doesn't feel like they give a damn about what their backers care about so long as they can get the media to keep telling us its just like Baldur's Gate.

[Sensuki]

That approach worked for Dragon Age: Origins, too.

 

Oh dear

[GreyFox]

 

Feargus does like to babble a lot when he's not sure about something, but that Matt Chat has me a little worried that this game is going to have a rushed release. Game might end up shipping with many sub-par systems and UIs and worse AI than BG1.

They have time to make multiple iterations of those in couple months. Which of course don't mean that they can surpass BG1 in quality, but then reason is probably somewhere else than they didn't have enough time. 

 

 

Manpower/money?

 

Honestly a company with the nickname "bugsidian" in some circles doesn't need to put out a rushed/buggy product when there is no publisher to place blame on and the full brunt of all critique is solely on their shoulders.

 

Personally I don't think the nickname is fair or really warranted but I have heard it and yes in locations other than RPGCodex....

[Helm]

So they really want to shove this game out the door this year?

 

Oh boy.

[Ashen Rohk]

I love how suddenly we're all masters of the profession.

 

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BETA TESTING. To find these bugs - see how problematic they are, find out what people like, what they think sucks, any tweaks and systems that need to be changed. Yes, pathfinder sucks and the AI is a bit wonky (but it was fine in the old IE games, right lolololz). Plenty of things sucked in W2 and D:OS betas, hell - D:OS is still broken as hell after launch. A beta is an unfinished state of the game, end of. It's not the same as a demo, and there's a lot of people here who don't make that distinction.

[Datass]

Comparing themselves with Dragon Age seems retarded beyond belief; Bioware jumped the shark a long time ago and their bisexual romances and "open ended sandbox design" (the new neo hipster anthem) does not compete one iota with Pillars. They might share a 20% overlap in customers but since the "hardcore" fans already backed the game why worry?

I mean a fairly impressive graphic intensive game channeling Skyrim AND the Witcher, with elves and threesome and bisexual companions? Aw gawd its hevan! What sort of retarded non hip geek would rather play a game that delivertly wants to look like games made 15 years ago....oh ok

I say they will fix the UI, pathfinding, the combat AI and presto! Selling like hotcakes in Steam will buy the game a few more weeks of bugtesting

[Monte Carlo]

^ I agree with you Ashen, it's a beta.

 

Actually, it's an alpha-beta, if I wanted to be generous (I too have been a tester). It's meant to be representative only, I dig that. For me, stability isn't a major issue and it looks nice (apart from the horrible inventory system and design, which I'm pretty shocked at given Obz's experience in designing them). It's the combat and systems mechanics that make it unplayable for me and not a great deal of fun.

 

But, as we've seen with other aspects of this project, it's a tad weaselly. For starters, Obz clearly don't really want or need us as beta-testers. This whole thing was something they added in as a stretch goal for moar dollars and had to deliver on. Had they simply crunched the hell out of bugs and slept on their desks and never had this beta, stuff would be fine.

 

So lesson one: only release a beta if you want it to be a beta. This isn't. This is an ass-backwards PR / reassurance stunt that has backfired.

 

Secondly, how often do you see a green name at the bottom of this forum? Obz don't like talking to their fans, mainly because more than a few of us tell them stuff they don't want to hear. I don't expect the main guys on here that often, tbh, they've got work to do, but as I pointed out in autumn 2012 they should have appointed a community manager. Relic do this well, they are a smaller company and have three. Noun can be found on third party and fan forums pretty much constantly. Sawyer swoops in occasionally, to issue a stern glare to dissenters, and that's about it.

 

Lesson The Second: If you don't want to engage with fans that much, and only via updates, then don't say you will and issue Bio-levels of hype about your unprecedented dialogue with your backers.

 

I don't pretend to know much about game design. I'm genuinely not being an armchair general. But as a games fan I've followed, participated in and generally been around dev cycles and betas for fifteen-plus years and I'm telling you Obz has changed. In fact, we got more general engagement when they had a publisher.

 

MC out.

[GreyFox]

I love how suddenly we're all masters of the profession.

 

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BETA TESTING. To find these bugs - see how problematic they are, find out what people like, what they think sucks, any tweaks and systems that need to be changed. Yes, pathfinder sucks and the AI is a bit wonky (but it was fine in the old IE games, right lolololz). Plenty of things sucked in W2 and D:OS betas, hell - D:OS is still broken as hell after launch. A beta is an unfinished state of the game, end of. It's not the same as a demo, and there's a lot of people here who don't make that distinction.

 

Whoa whoa why the random dig at Pathfinder yo?

[Starwars]

The sky is falling!

[GilliusThunderhead]

As someone who bought Baldurs gate "enhanced" edition as soon as it was released and suffered a game breaking bug (Disappearing NPC that made it impossible to progress further) i suggest delaying the game until it is done.I don't see this being finished by December, personally i think March 2015 is more likely.

[Helm]

I love how suddenly we're all masters of the profession.

 

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BETA TESTING. To find these bugs - see how problematic they are, find out what people like, what they think sucks, any tweaks and systems that need to be changed. Yes, pathfinder sucks and the AI is a bit wonky (but it was fine in the old IE games, right lolololz).

The worst bugs in this game are the Sawyerisms that plague it.

[Mayama]

 

I love how suddenly we're all masters of the profession.

 

THIS IS WHY WE HAVE BETA TESTING. To find these bugs - see how problematic they are, find out what people like, what they think sucks, any tweaks and systems that need to be changed. Yes, pathfinder sucks and the AI is a bit wonky (but it was fine in the old IE games, right lolololz).

The worst bugs in this game are the Sawyerisms that plague it.

 

 

No the worst "bug" is that people like you do not seem to understand what kickstarter actually is.

[Zwiebelchen]

"Planetscape"?

 

I'm not attacking you. Just saying the definition of "beta" varies. You've probably heard of the Steam Early Access program. Obsidian seemed unwilling to put this beta up for sale there, and at the time we didn't understand exactly what they were so afraid of. Well, now we know - it's clear that their definition of "beta" is something that isn't really suitable for a mass audience. At least, not at the beginning.

 

But that's because people have a really twisted expectation of what "Beta" means nowadays with all the betas being more a less a quick cashgrab that display a finished game to artifically create good reputation.

 

For me, the backer beta is exactly what a beta looked like 15 years ago, when game developement was a lot more honest than nowadays.

There wasn't any core features missing, everything worked at least to a major degrees. The existance of severe and gamebreaking bugs is totally normal for an early beta version.

 

A lot of people seem to have a misconception about bugs and how to fix them.

Most of large-scale gamebreaking bugs actually have only a very small cause. Only in very few cases, a large-scale effect is caused by large-scale mistakes.

Besides, all the bugs are easily reproducable. And reproducable bugs can literally be fixed in a couple of minutes.

 

 

I remember back when I started modding in Warcraft III and scriped an aggro system very similar to World of Warcraft's aggro mechanics. It seemed to be totally broken, with basicly nothing working at all, no matter what I tried. I searched for weeks and couldn't find the culprit and couldn't even find any logical dependencies and reproduction methods. I suspected a fundamental flaw in my system design and was almost about to start writing from scratch out of my frustration.

Then, suddenly, when I was scrolling through all the function names to have an API to work with for my remake, I quite literally stumbled over the reason for this bug:

I just commented out a line that offsets an incremential integer by one. Why I did this out in the first place is still beyond me. But this single commented-out line caused all internal IDs to be 1 value off, causing all objects to have the wrong references. I removed the commenting and everything worked perfectly fine from this day on.

As you can see, the smallest of mistakes can have a huge impact on complex systems like battle mechanics. It's not like it's a lot of work to fix such problems, it's only a lot of work to actually find the problem.

 

This can be alleviated by giving detailed instructions on how to reproduce the bug at any given time.

After all, it's easy to find the pin in the haystack if you have a magnet.

 

 

Long story short:

All bugs I've seen from the backer beta can easily be reproduced and thus, can be fixed in no time.

There seem to be almost no bugs that have no clear immediate effect (like memory leaks) ... and those are the really painful bugs.

 

 

So I'm positive the game release date promise is possible to achieve. Do we get major changes to some flawed mechanics like weak pathfinding? Probably not. But we won't get a game with gamebreaking bugs, that I am sure of.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Zwiebelchen

[Helm]

 

No the worst "bug" is that people like you do not seem to understand what kickstarter actually is.

Funny, I didn't have any problems with D:OS or Shadowrun:Returns. WL2 is looking good too.