Torment: Tides of Numenera

[Fearabbit]

I guess my Tides would be Red and Silver. Those are the ones where the answers to the "tough questions" above are most similar to what I would've said.

I kinda wish I was more of a Blue/Gold type, but oh well. ^^ Selfish fame-seeking bastard it is.

 

As for the combat:

I like turn-based combat systems a lot, especially the ones from Shadowrun Returns, X-Com and Fallout. It's the "philosophical" combat system and it suits TTON quite well.

What I really don't like about their idea of it is, however, that it's once again a system with full control over the party. For once, I'd love to play a classical RPG where I only control one character, my main character. You know, like Fallout and Arcanum. I want to issue commands. I do not want to have my main character turn into a demigod that controls his companions like puppets when they're in combat mode. I've always thought that was weird, because in the rest of the game I can't use them in that way - I can't tell my rogue companion "hey, you do the talking, you're better at it" and I can't tell the token betrayer "hey, don't betray me!".

To me that's an annoying dissonance.

[Bester]

Many turn based games offer the option to speed up enemy turns. Even Fallout had this back in 1997.

And it was still tiresome when there were lots of critters.

[Meshugger]

Stand by, Rat 1 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 2 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 3 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 4 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 5 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 6 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 7 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 8 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 9 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 10 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 11 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 12 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 13 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 14 one is acting.

 

Your turn!

You try to jab rat 3 and miss.

 

Stand by, scorpion 1 is fleeing.

Stand by, scorpion 2 is fleeing.

Stand by, scorpion 3 is fleeing.

Stand by, scorpion 4 is fleeing.

Stand by, scorpion 5 is fleeing.

Stand by, scorpion 6 is fleeing.

Stand by, Rat 1 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 2 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 3 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 4 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 5 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 6 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 7 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 8 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 9 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 10 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 11 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 12 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 13 one is acting.

Stand by, Rat 14 one is acting.

Your turn!..... Hello? You still there??? YOUR TURN!!!!!! HELLOOOOOOO.

 

What the difference here between this and real time combat? You still have have swing your sword for each hit on each rat. I think that you are confused with **** encounter design.

[Undecaf]

It is still more fun than "press play and watch the avatar slay 20 rats one by one for the next 10 minutes"; at least you have something to do during your turns.

 

But yeah, **** encounter design is ****.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Undecaf

[Bester]

What the difference here between this and real time combat? You still have have swing your sword for each hit on each rat. I think that you are confused with **** encounter design.

 

You understand exactly what I'm talking about, but pretend not to, which is kind of stupid.

[Zoraptor]

Nah bro. It's like saying the RTS system is crap if you need to be able to micromanage hundreds of units' attack and position orders very accurately in order to win. That is crap because it's not what RTS is good at, but it's the implementation which causes it to be so not the system itself which works fine otherwise and in other games. So, you don't design an RTS that requires super accurate manipulation for hundreds of units and the 'problem' never occurs. If you don't design encounters where you fight 50 enemies at once you don't have that problem with TB. Fighting 50 enemies at once in an RT system is rubbish too, as they're either trash mobs where you target them one at a time to watch them explode like they're packed full of TNT, 50 times; or you autoattack (and in some cases auto use items etc) in which case you have a glorified screen saver; or you have to scramble around like with the RTS trying to do everything super accurately while being rushed by 50 enemies.

 

Don't have crap encounter design: it's rule #1, 2 and 3 in not having a crap combat system.

[Bester]

Remember that spider den with a drow under the Athkatla Graveyard? A perfectly fine location. Made sense in every way. Had 50 or so small spiders. Required a fireball to deal with it. Now image this scenario in TB. Don't imagine the whole scene though, or it'll take you years.

[Mamoulian War]

It would require one fireball in TB system as well, all small spiders gone in one puff of smoke. Only thing which could make it a tragedy, would be the small spiders immunity to fire, but that would be another example of ****ty encounter design. But even this could be cornered with clever combat system, when all enemies would make their turn at once (ToEE had this years ago, so inXile does not need to reinvent the wheel with this one).

 

Or it could be cornered with a player, who knows how to use his braincells for more advance things like breathing and playing CoD multiplayer 8 hours a day... Namely to use a Chain Lightning.

 

Voila, all enemies gone in one turn - you earned 150 experience points, move along to the next "epic for braindamaged chimpanzees" encouter... For all other it's just one click and win under 1 minute.

 

I can't help myself, but the more Bester bitchss about such trivial stuff, the more I am excited for the final product...

Edited November 10, 2013 by Mamoulian War

[Bester]

Only thing which could make it a tragedy, 

 

MANY things could make it a tragedy. Off the top of my head:

 

Fireball miscasts? Wait for all 50 spiders to act before it's your turn.

Fireball not memorized? Wait for all 50 spiders to act before it's your turn. Then hit once and wait more like an idiot.

Spiders not in perfect position to throw a fireball in? Wait for all 50 spiders to act before it's your turn.

You roll 1 on initiative? Wait for all 50 spiders to act before it's your turn.

 

No, thank you.

Edited November 10, 2013 by Bester

[Gromnir]

numenera's effort/edge is very much a turn-based mechanic. am having some difficulty imaging numenera pnp combat in a real-time-with-pause crpg. 'course the developers of tides could abandon effort/edge but that would be making us wonder why numenera were chosen in the first place.  that being said, while Gromnir is not immediate seeing an elegant method o' implementing numenera combat via pause+real-time, it is possible/likely that a more clever or knowledgeable person out there has a solution. 

 

as for the frequent "soul-numbing" that accompanies even the bestest turn-based crpg implementation...

 

*shrug*

 

am thinking that for all its flaws, toee implementation o' turn-based were excellent... if you could get toee to work, and if you were willing to endure horrible non-combats aspects o' the game. is noteworthy that more than a few toee battles involved numerous antagonists. 50 spiders at once? no, but then again, we can easily imagine such a battle in a tb environment that would move quick enough for us: has spiders (or 5-10 spiders) take their "turn" simultaneous. problem solved. even so, there is an aspect o' tedium that accompanies even the best turn-based combat. after bugbear mob encounter #10, bugbear encounters #11, #12, #13 is nothing but an interminable seeming chore. turn-based magnifies boredom resulting from seeming filler encounters.  however, such boredom is the result o' bad design as 'posed to an inherent flaw in turn-based combat. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Every time I read one of Gromnir's posts, I feel like I've just done a line of coke. One of the better draws of the forums.

 

I couldn't care less if they choose TB or RTwP, both can be fun and easily ****ed up.

[melkathi]

All i care about is an immersive world and story and interesting characters to interact with. Real Time or turn Based? Both will be equally bad if the story isn't up to par.

[Lexx]

Well, I know that at least for me, real time with pause combat will just end in a big cluster****, as it happens in all rtwp games that I play.

[sorophx]

MANY things could make it a tragedy. Off the top of my head:

 

Fireball miscasts? Wait for all 50 spiders to act before it's your turn.

simply not showing AI turns to player would avert this tragedy

[Mamoulian War]

Yeah, most of the turn-based games had this solution implemented in early 90's already, realy don't see what's the fuss about it...

[Gromnir]

 

MANY things could make it a tragedy. Off the top of my head:

 

Fireball miscasts? Wait for all 50 spiders to act before it's your turn.

simply not showing AI turns to player would avert this tragedy

 

so, fight the dragon, but dragon just kinda strobes? a moment ago dragon was relative 30 metres away. next moment it is in midst of party and Gromnir clothes is smoking and the heals is dead?  doesn't seem satisfactory at all. in addition, the Attack of Opportunity has become a bit o a staple in pnp combats. without seeing ai moves it would often be more than a bit perplexing figuring out who (friends AND foes) already utilized aoo, why they is prone, and how various damage occurred.  you could put all such stuff in a text combat log, but ultimately you not save much time as player would needs to go back and review that log. for large battles such a review would be as "soul-numbing" as would be watching the "action" take place.

 

*shrug*

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nonek]

Don't have crap encounter design: it's rule #1, 2 and 3 in not having a crap combat system.

 

No the first rule of crap combat systems is WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT CRAP COMBAT SYSTEMS!

 

Sorry.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

Don't have crap encounter design: it's rule #1, 2 and 3 in not having a crap combat system.

 

 

No the first rule of crap combat systems is WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT CRAP COMBAT SYSTEMS!

 

Sorry.

You clever bastard.

[Meshugger]

 

What the difference here between this and real time combat? You still have have swing your sword for each hit on each rat. I think that you are confused with **** encounter design.

 

You understand exactly what I'm talking about, but pretend not to, which is kind of stupid.

 

 

I understand exactly what you say, but it seems like you do not understand the difference between encounter-design and turn-based combat in itself.

 

Anyhoo, every time Gromnir posts something i always get the mental picture of a James Joyce, sitting on a sofa in an old library, slightly puffing his tobacco pipe while typing.

[ShadySands]

I voted for turn based and then flagged RTwP as inappropriate 

 

 

Also, who logs in just to vote that they don't care? 

Edited November 21, 2013 by ShadySands

[melkathi]

 

Also, who logs in just to vote that they don't care? 

 

Me.

What with passwords being remembered by browsers, logging in is automatic when you click the link to the pole.

[ShadySands]

pfsh

 

I would have bought your vote... for all the Steam games I'm already struggling to give away 

[Keyrock]

I voted turn-based.  All you RTwP voters can go f...  ly a kite. 

[Zoraptor]

Also, who logs in just to vote that they don't care? 

It's a good idea if you don't want time wasted on trivial issues or stuff that you think is peripheral. If only 10% of people cared either way and they were literally the only people giving opinions then you get a rather skewed view of an issue's importance and it looks like some massive irreconcilable divide.

 

On the other hand people who post multiple times about how little they care and get actively upset about other people caring is something I find very odd.

[Gorth]

Hmm... not a backer, so I don't get a vote. Turn based would be my preference when/if I decide to buy the game after release.

 

I played X-Com 3 Apocalypse not long ago (at least I think that was the one) where space bar would skip enemy movement (or rather fast forward it) bringing goons from start of turn position to either end of turn position or stop if engaging in combat It worked most excellently. Don't care about watching enemy movement animation,  hit space bar a few times. Want to get a better look at what direction enemies are arriving from, watch one or two enemies (and then fast forward the rest). Would also interrupt FF if suddenly popping into view of one of your squaddies (because of overwatch fire).

 

But then, X-Com 3 together with JA2 does have some of the most fun turn based combat out there.