The TV and Streaming Thread: Where is Ricky Gervais when you need him???

[kirottu]

6 hours ago, Gromnir said:

the thing is, if you start off episode one with a not-so-subtle jonah allegory, then is hardly gonna be shocking when the main character, after emerging from the whale, recognizes the opportunity God/The Universe/The Force has presented him to change the course o' his life. 'course the writers went with a pollock mural approach, taking bits o' robin hood and moses and a man called horse and kinda splattering 'em onto their weekly canvas w/o any seeming rhyme or reason. please note the aforementioned characters, while protagonists and typically heroic, engaged in criminal behaviour, but y'know, for goodness. 

Apparently the jonah allegory was still too subtle for me to notice it.  

[Raithe]

I could see the mixture of Jonah allegory and his whole.. born again, exposed to the tribal concept of support as opposed to his lonely orphan youth and odd relationship with Cad Bane, and his shift of "you need people to support you" combining with his recognition that as a hired gun he was always stuck with the stupid decisions an employer might make.

So it's easy to see that path of him deciding to want to be his own boss.

His lack of any actual preparation or building of support beyond ONE person before doing so, is a little underwhelming for a character supposedly very tactically aware (at least in the EU). The original movies literally did a cool armour and "no disintegrations." You had a bit of add on with the elements of Jango Fett, but then Boba lost his teaching when he was , what, about 9? But all of the EU stuff kind of gets shunted off and no-one has any clue how valid it is in the Disney SW universe.

[Gromnir]

41 minutes ago, kirottu said:

Apparently the jonah allegory was still too subtle for me to notice it.  

ordinary modern allegory for the jonah thing is gonna be escape from a job, marriage, whatever. understandable, for the typical author there are few ways to work in literal being swallowed by a leviathan. 

keep in mind, joseph campbell, whose works were a big inspiration for lucas in creating star wars, included "the belly of the whale" as an early chapter in his book, the hero with the thousand faces. for campbell, the belly o' the whale is a near death crucible for change, but not necessarily the kinda foreshadowing o' newfound faith or goodness which is a trapping o' the jonah judeo-christian influence.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited February 14, 2022 by Gromnir

[kanisatha]

21 hours ago, Keyrock said:

@AmentepYou actually made it through the entire season? Hats off to you good sir or madam, you have a stronger stomach than I do.

Yeah I barely made it through watching the entire first season, and have zero interest in going back for anymore of it.

[Amentep]

EDIT:

 

[ShadySands]

34 minutes ago, kanisatha said:

Yeah I barely made it through watching the entire first season, and have zero interest in going back for anymore of it.

My cousin's BF actually likes Discovery a lot because it's more exciting and has less boring talking. 

Of course this makes it hard for me to see him as a human person but I'm trying.

[Amentep]

7 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

My cousin's BF actually likes Discovery a lot because it's more exciting and has less boring talking. 

Of course this makes it hard for me to see him as a human person but I'm trying.

Eh, IMO, its the Star Wars effect.  I think I've mentioned this a few times, but the people currently in control of Star Trek LOVE Star Wars and resultantly seem to want to see feats of sci-fi swashbuckling with a bunch of *pew* *pew* lasers.  Go look at interviews with either Abrams or Kurtzman talking about Trek and they'll usually mention being big fans of Star Wars.

They don't seem to actually like Star Trek, though.  Or at best tolerate it.  I think this is why they go through convolutions in story to sideline Starfleet in Discovery and have everyone bristle under the yoke of oppression chain-of-command - because Luke Skywalker and Han Solo didn't need to ask anybody if they could go kick some ass, they just did it.

But as  I mentioned, the TNG producers didn't like ST either - they hated the idea of Roddenberry's better future because they couldn't see how they could make drama if the characters didn't yell at one another in disagreement or how they could tell stories saddled with some continuity and Starfleet structure and rules (the episode I just watched where the Enterprise command crew want to watch a planet's populace die in service to a gross misunderstanding of the Prime Directive is the most obvious sign they didn't get it).  So what we're seeing is the long term effect of having the people who own the show (Paramount/Viacom/CBS) hiring people to make Trek be something it isn't because that something else is 'popular'.  There's been some fun along the way, but we're at an echo of an echo of an idea at this point.

This is probably why I don't mind 1st season Discovery as some may do - to my mind the toys are already broken, so I can try to enjoy it for what it is good/bad as long as it doesn't bore me.  It'll be interesting to see what I think of Season 2, as from all I've read it has less to recommend it than Season 1 for most viewers.  Be interested to see Picard as well, since so far IMO the best thing about TNG is its cast.

[ShadySands]

50 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Be interested to see Picard as well, since so far IMO the best thing about TNG is its cast.

I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts on Picard. I found that show more divisive than Discovery though I dunno if that's universal or just in my circle.

[majestic]

42 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts on Picard. I found that show more divisive than Discovery though I dunno if that's universal or just in my circle.

There's nothing divisive about Picard. If you find it's hard to see people who liked Discovery as human beings, Picard just makes that impossible. It turns me into a little VOLO and brings out my inner NAZI that just channels Udo Kier:

  

1 hour ago, Amentep said:

But as  I mentioned, the TNG producers didn't like ST either - they hated the idea of Roddenberry's better future because they couldn't see how they could make drama if the characters didn't yell at one another in disagreement or how they could tell stories saddled with some continuity and Starfleet structure and rules (the episode I just watched where the Enterprise command crew want to watch a planet's populace die in service to a gross misunderstanding of the Prime Directive is the most obvious sign they didn't get it).  So what we're seeing is the long term effect of having the people who own the show (Paramount/Viacom/CBS) hiring people to make Trek be something it isn't because that something else is 'popular'.  There's been some fun along the way, but we're at an echo of an echo of an idea at this point.

This is probably why I don't mind 1st season Discovery as some may do - to my mind the toys are already broken, so I can try to enjoy it for what it is good/bad as long as it doesn't bore me.  It'll be interesting to see what I think of Season 2, as from all I've read it has less to recommend it than Season 1 for most viewers.  Be interested to see Picard as well, since so far IMO the best thing about TNG is its cast.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by majestic

[Amentep]

25 minutes ago, majestic said:

There's nothing divisive about Picard. If you find it's hard to see people who liked Discovery as human beings, Picard just makes that impossible. It turns me into a little VOLO and brings out my inner NAZI that just channels Udo Kier:

I'd have expected a different Udo Kier reaction.  

  

25 minutes ago, majestic said:

[Zoraptor]

37 minutes ago, majestic said:

There's nothing divisive about Picard.

Yeah, I'm not sure I've seen anyone at all who liked completed Picard. IIRC Guard Dog at least liked it up until the last two episodes, and I found it tolerable up to them. And that's about it for positivity.

I wouldn't put it quite as regarding toys being broken, but I think that my opinion that the Federation has always been a busted flush* helps when it comes to not hating the programs. End of the day it's the bad plotting which ruined all the shows for me, not them being bad Star Trek.

*I also watched Blake's 7 first, so I'll view any 'Federation' with an arrowhead symbol as less than intrinsically great, which helps when it comes to Picard.

 

[Keyrock]

If Nu Trek wasn't called Star Trek, well, it still wouldn't be great because the stories are more hole than plot, but it would be a cromulent enough collection of turn your brain off action adventure movies and shows. The production value is really high and there's plenty of pew pew pew, flashing bright lights, and sappy melodrama.

There's nothing wrong with sci-fi action adventure shows with melodrama, I've enjoyed some of them. What made Star Trek special is that it was different. It occasionally had action but it wasn't an action show. It occasionally had melodrama, but not often. It was about a glorious future where humans got their $#!+ together and left behind their petty squabbles and explored the universe while getting into wacky situations that they solved with brains and words, rarely fists and phasers. Nu Trek is a generic sci-fi action show just with extra stupid writing.

[the_dog_days]

Did you skip on the Wheel of Time? Do you have no desire to watch it? Would you still like to know how 'book accurate' the show is? Gottcha covered: 

 

[Keyrock]

3 minutes ago, the_dog_days said:

Did you skip on the Wheel of Time? Do you have no desire to watch it? Would you still like to know how 'book accurate' the show is? Gottcha covered: 

 

Yes, yes, and not really but I'll probably watch the video anyway.

[majestic]

4 hours ago, Amentep said:

I'd have expected a different Udo Kier reaction.  

Would have worked, I guess, but when Shady talks about not seeing people as humans, then that's what inevitably comes to mind. Besides, the film is more relevant than ever, I guess.

6 hours ago, Amentep said:

This is probably why I don't mind 1st season Discovery as some may do - to my mind the toys are already broken, so I can try to enjoy it for what it is good/bad as long as it doesn't bore me.  It'll be interesting to see what I think of Season 2, as from all I've read it has less to recommend it than Season 1 for most viewers.  Be interested to see Picard as well, since so far IMO the best thing about TNG is its cast.

A more serious reply than a Sarevok meme with a typo in it (I should really just start making my own memes), there's some validity in your point insofar as that TNG already vectored away from the original Gene Roddenberry vision, we just seem to disagree about its effect. Compared to the first two seasons, seasons three through five of TNG were top tier sci-fi entertainment while still being Star Trek enough to be Star Trek.

Don't get me wrong, I love the original series, but I think that the first two seasons of TNG showed that it really didn't work too well.

If your current rewatch makes you try DS9, then you're probably not going to like that. Maybe not initially, but certainly once it comes to a certain long term plot and the examination of its effects.

4 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Yeah, I'm not sure I've seen anyone at all who liked completed Picard. IIRC Guard Dog at least liked it up until the last two episodes, and I found it tolerable up to them. And that's about it for positivity.

I don't know, I hated Picard the moment it opened with an action scene where a group of ninja assassins teleport into an appartment going into hand-to-hand combat with a hyper advanced android instead of just beaming her out into a suspension field. That's exactly the sort of stupid idiocy that would be fine in b-movie trash where I could enjoy it, just not at all in a Star Trek show, and it only went downhill from there, inventing ludicrous Romulan ninja-warrior nuns, a secret-secreter-secret police within the Tal Shiar that's dedicated to wiping out the Geth androids and never mind mechanic Cthulhu coming to destroy organics or how utterly pointless the entire Borg subplot ended up being.

 

[Amentep]

24 minutes ago, majestic said:

A more serious reply than a Sarevok meme with a typo in it (I should really just start making my own memes), there's some validity in your point insofar as that TNG already vectored away from the original Gene Roddenberry vision, we just seem to disagree about its effect. Compared to the first two seasons, seasons three through five of TNG were top tier sci-fi entertainment while still being Star Trek enough to be Star Trek.

Don't get me wrong, I love the original series, but I think that the first two seasons of TNG showed that it really didn't work too well.

If your current rewatch makes you try DS9, then you're probably not going to like that. Maybe not initially, but certainly once it comes to a certain long term plot and the examination of its effects.

I dunno, I think I mentioned how season 5 is high highs and low lows for me and the lows are pretty terrible. And I don't think season 1 & 2 are as bad as most fans think, less high highs I guess but just mediocre lows. But to be fair, Roddenberry was being overruled left and right in season 1 (and sometimes with good reason, from what I've read) so I don't know if he 'had it' really either.

I do want to watch DS9 and Voyager,  but will probably take  break for a little bit since I'm watching Disco and Picard after it. I liked parts of DS9 that I saw before, but not sure what I'll make of it now (I at best saw maybe a third of it, and a lot of it early on).

[Keyrock]

13 hours ago, Amentep said:

I dunno, I think I mentioned how season 5 is high highs and low lows for me and the lows are pretty terrible. And I don't think season 1 & 2 are as bad as most fans think, less high highs I guess but just mediocre lows. But to be fair, Roddenberry was being overruled left and right in season 1 (and sometimes with good reason, from what I've read) so I don't know if he 'had it' really either.

I do want to watch DS9 and Voyager,  but will probably take  break for a little bit since I'm watching Disco and Picard after it. I liked parts of DS9 that I saw before, but not sure what I'll make of it now (I at best saw maybe a third of it, and a lot of it early on).

Season 1 of TNG was the most like TOS. TOS was quite campy, in large part due to how low budget it was, and I like camp, but it just didn't work for me in season 1 of TNG. Also, Wesley was THE WORST. Season 2 was a roller coaster ride. Seasons 3 & 4 were God-Tier. Season 5 was the beginning of the decline, but I'd still take any of the last 3 seasons over season 2 and certainly over season 1.

DS9 is where Star Trek started to seriously deviate from Roddenberry's original vision, but it works because it's so well written with a superb cast of characters.

Voyager... I don't know what kind of drugs the writers were on, but it felt like they were just flinging ideas at the wall and hoping some would stick. This created some amazingly amusing episodes as well as a ton of hospital strength cringe.

Enterprise... I'll be honest here, I only watched as much of that show as I did for Jolene Blalock in a skin-tight bodysuit.

[Amentep]

13 minutes ago, Keyrock said:

Season 1 of TNG was the most like TOS. TOS was quite campy, in large part due to how low budget it was, and I like camp, but it just didn't work for me in season 1 of TNG. Also, Wesley was THE WORST. Season 2 was a roller coaster ride. Seasons 3 & 4 were God-Tier. Season 5 was the beginning of the decline, but I'd still take any of the last 3 seasons over season 2 and certainly over season 1.

DS9 is where Star Trek started to seriously deviate from Roddenberry's original vision, but it works because it's so well written with a superb cast of characters.

Voyager... I don't know what kind of drugs the writers were on, but it felt like they were just flinging ideas at the wall and hoping some would stick. This created some amazingly amusing episodes as well as a ton of hospital strength cringe.

Enterprise... I'll be honest here, I only watched as much of that show as I did for Jolene Blalock in a skin-tight bodysuit.

I never considered TOS campy.  Low-budget, sure, but campy TV is defined by Batman '66 in my mind (or for a sci-fi equivalent, the 2nd season of Lost in Space) and Star Trek wasn't that.  Obviously YMMV.  For TNG, Wesley was ill-used but I didn't mind his character on re-watch which surprised me greatly as I thought he was a waste of character-space in the original airings.  Perhaps I could tolerate him better in retrospect as I knew there was a finite run for the character.

To be honest, and hindsight being 20/20, TNG started the show with too many characters.  TOS is Kirk-Spock-McCoy then the reoccurring characters - Scotty and Nurse Chapel then Uhura, Sulu, Chekov, Rand, Riley, with the lions share of episodes being majorly with the main three and then 1 more of those (usually Scotty) having a significant role.  TNG had Picard-Riker-Troi-Data to start (the carryover from Phase II's Kirk-Decker-Ilia-Xon) but the remainder of the characters were fighting for story scraps. Worf in Season 1 was superfluous and had no role but to be the Klingon in the background.  Worse, I think they realized from a story standpoint they needed an Engineer so badly that they just moved Geordi to that position.  Worse for Wesley, he had no real role on the ship such that they had to sort of push him into a role for no good reason, really.

Season 5, 6 and 7 have had some really dire episode in my opinion (the block of stories involving children in Season 5 almost put me off continuing they were so, so bad and came so close after one-another).  I'd easily watch Season 1 and 2 over rather than the dregs of those three seasons.  The better episodes of 5, 6, 7 may be a lot better than the betters of 1 & 2, but the lows are, IMO, less low. 

What I saw of DS9, it benefitted from having a lot of characters not directly affiliated with Starfleet (IMO) as TNG shows, the producers felt constrained by Starfleet.  Voyager always struck me as a mish-mash of characters.  I wanted Paris to "disobeys-orders and hotshot pilots" himself in a shuttle into an asteroid though, from the episodes I saw.  Enterprise I didn't see much of as my work schedule changed and I didn't get home while it was on.  It was on my 'next to watch' after TNG, but I think I'm going to put a short series in between TNG and my re-watch of it.

[Keyrock]

25 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Worf in Season 1 was superfluous and had no role but to be the Klingon in the background.

It was a blessing in disguise when Denise Crosby made the fantastic career decision to abandon a lifetime of royalties in favor of starring in horrible B movies. Once Tasha Yar was jettisoned via tar monster and Worf took her place, he came into his own.

[Amentep]

 

 

[Hiro Protagonist]

On 2/15/2022 at 11:09 AM, Amentep said:

I do want to watch DS9 and Voyager,  but will probably take  break for a little bit since I'm watching Disco and Picard after it. I liked parts of DS9 that I saw before, but not sure what I'll make of it now (I at best saw maybe a third of it, and a lot of it early on).

First 3 seasons of DS9 is a slog are hard to get through but it's worth trudging through it to get to Season 4 where it goes into a new direction and Worf joins the show. Season 4-7 are great.

[Guard Dog]

IMO Star Trek ended the day Voyager got home. But, it was on life support after the last episode of DS9. Everything that came after was trash. 

In other more important news Paramount is making a mini-series about Bass Reeves. If you don't know who that is believe he's well worth five minutes on Wikipedia. If that's too much he was a runaway slave who became a US Marshal. And he was more of a badass at it than Wyatt Earp, Bill Hickock, or Frank Eaton ever were. If you DO know who he is I think you'll agree it's about time!

[Amentep]

Reeves has been in a few film and tv properties, but I don't think any of them are definitive portrayals or accounts (and now after nothing much, there's supposed to also be projects from Amazon and HBO as well in development).  

I'd imagine we might have the 2019 WATCHMEN tv show to thank for bringing him back into the public consciousness in a big way.

[InsaneCommander]

Archive 81. A pretty interesting mystery/horror series. Maybe not that much horror. One thing was extremely disappointing though:

Spoiler

the entity Kaelego.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

20 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Archive 81. A pretty interesting mystery/horror series. Maybe not that much horror. One thing was extremely disappointing though:

  Reveal hidden contents

the entity Kaelego.

 

It was very hard for me to take the CGI demon seriously.