TURN BASED combat in Deadfire?!

[IndiraLightfoot]

I can understand why some peeps feel that turn-based is immersive breaking and unnaturally clunky and rigid, but to me, having played board games and tabletop RPGs for years and years, nothing beats turn-based. In a way, you could say that I have more immersion in a turn-based game, because I'm so used to my mind/fantasy accepting this clunkiness and filling in the gaps with my "sitting around the table, taking my time, munching on something yummy, and strategizing, and simply having lots of fun"-vibes. RTwP, on the other hand, feels much more like a RTS computer game *duh, obviously* (and in part, even worse, it feels like the game plays itself, pianola gaming,) and in games like this I really love to see each turn unfold, considering all the numbers and options, well, yeah, guess why I love Civilization so much.

Edited January 2, 2019 by IndiraLightfoot

[Manveru123]

[IndiraLightfoot]

I mean, most young people today wouldn't play board games with figurines, and quite apparently, turn-based combat tries to emulate that, whereas RTwP offers the embryo of the illusion of real living characters fighting in real time (at least in theory). But games and graphics and other technology have evolved so much, like Triple A Foxy Lad wrote elsewhere (Found it: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/107561-bg2-and-poe2-not-what-you-think/?p=2128003), that RTwP feels old-fashioned and weird for other reasons. 

Edited January 2, 2019 by IndiraLightfoot

[Manveru123]

Board games are very popular actually.

 

It's funny because first popular RPG games ever were actually turn based, RTwP came much later, and yet it is somehow "weird and old fashioned"? Please, that's just BS.

 

Turn based combat in RPGs is boring, because it unneccesarily drags battles to the point of boredom. It makes me never want to do more than one playthrough, and I always struggle to reach the end, because it gets hella repetitive. DOS2 somehow managed to keep me hooked to the end, at least, but even then I just couldn't get to a second run when EE came out. While in Kingmaker, I'm slowly approaching 200 hours and the end isn't anywhere close. Is Kingmaker a better game? Hell no. Is it more fun to play? Hell yes.

 

You mention Civilization, yet combat in that game was quick and simple, and the turn based aspect was much more important for everything else, like managing your country. It's a different genre anyway.

 

RTwP is superior in pretty much every way.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

Board games are very popular actually.

Can vouch for this at least. My cousin makes a living out of them. They aint going away any time soon.

 

It's funny because first popular RPG games ever were actually turn based, RTwP came much later, and yet it is somehow "weird and old fashioned"? Please, that's just BS.

Things do come in cycles, and rtwp peaked with the rts genre over turn of millennium. So is old enough to be considered dated. Is maybe now *just* old enough to be considered vintage, but that newish development. Kinda like synthwave supplanting chiptune.

 

Like maybe some analogue moog thing is older than yamaha dx7, but u ask someone which sounds more dated and they more likely to answer the dx7.

 

Also many old school side-scrolling 2d platformers look less 'dated' than the fmv surge of late 90s. Even tho latter was supposedly bleeding edge at one point.

 

Point is appealing to age alone as measure of modern relevance not enough. Is like saying ur better off eating month old pastry rather than drinking fifteen year old bottle of wine.

 

Turn based combat in RPGs is boring, because it unneccesarily drags battles to the point of boredom.

Thats an issue of poor encounter design, nowt to do with a system being turn-based. There are enough successful implementations of TB (SMT to name just one) to imply notion of TB combat not kiss of death. To suggest such without qualifying opinion as personal taste is rather hubristic.

 

Like wizardry casts a longer shadow than almost any rpg and thats turn-based.

 

Also many x-com / jagged alliance stans may consider such notion grounds for execution. lol.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Heh, I meant tactical board games with figurines, like Warhammer or Panzer General, and RPGs using figurines. I can only take my older kids, and then look at my cousins' younger kids today. Most of them nerdy, and hardly anyone touch these games anymore. In the 1970s through the roaring 1980s well into the 1990s, such games were the sh*t! All that I'm saying is that computer games and cell phone apps are dominating their lives hard. Still, MtG and simpler board games are still played physically at tables here and there. But this is just my experience, and I'm happy to hear of revivals or thriving tabletop communities elsewhere. Still, I doubt it that they will be as studious and religious as way back then. I reckon these heydays have passed.

 

My point is that turn-based combat and RTwP combat are two solutions to combat in computer RPGs, and the former came earlier, and the latter, clearly a RTS-inspired compromise, came later.

I actually love them both when well implemented and the games they are used in are good, but they can be hideous if implemented poorly. Sure, turn-based is more time-consuming, but load up the stratagem mod for BG2 and watch hilariously long battles unfold, because your enemies are just as prebuffed as you are. And they keep on rebuffing. Also, RTwP can get Benny Hill end scene very quickly - and I'd say PoE1, early on, at least, suffered from this bum rush chaos problem. I'm not a turn-based fanatic in any shape or form, but it can make for sweet games when done right. Like you said, Civ is entirely based around turns, so Civ combat alone would be pretty boring, that's for sure. But as a turn-based game, everything included, it's usually a great joy for me to play.

Edited January 3, 2019 by IndiraLightfoot

[Manveru123]

 

It's funny because first popular RPG games ever were actually turn based, RTwP came much later, and yet it is somehow "weird and old fashioned"? Please, that's just BS.

Things do come in cycles, and rtwp peaked with the rts genre over turn of millennium. So is old enough to be considered dated. Is maybe now *just* old enough to be considered vintage, but that newish development. Kinda like synthwave supplanting chiptune.

 

Like maybe some analogue moog thing is older than yamaha dx7, but u ask someone which sounds more dated and they more likely to answer the dx7.

 

Also many old school side-scrolling 2d platformers look less 'dated' than the fmv surge of late 90s. Even tho latter was supposedly bleeding edge at one point.

 

Point is appealing to age alone as measure of modern relevance not enough. Is like saying ur better off eating month old pastry rather than drinking fifteen year old bottle of wine.

 

Turn based combat in RPGs is boring, because it unneccesarily drags battles to the point of boredom.

Thats an issue of poor encounter design, nowt to do with a system being turn-based. There are enough successful implementations of TB (SMT to name just one) to imply notion of TB combat not kiss of death. To suggest such without qualifying opinion as personal taste is rather hubristic.

 

Like wizardry casts a longer shadow than almost any rpg and thats turn-based.

 

Also many x-com / jagged alliance stans may consider such notion grounds for execution. lol.

 

If RTwP is dated, then turn-based is ancient. You started the age discussion, now you're pulling out? Because I agree that it doesn't matter. What matters is what you find fun. In this particular example, RTwP games are the wine for me.

 

It has everything to do with turn-based system. Unless you want to tell me that almost every game has terribly implemented turn-based combat? The only non-japanese acceptable examples I've ever played are Shadowrun series and DOS2. And even if I greatly enjoyed these games, I still only did one full playthrough because I couldn't be bothered going through the boring combat all over again. To put this into a perspective, I've finished BG2 (counting from first ever release to Enhanced Edition) a total of 27 times. Yes I've been counting. For me, RTwP changes the time spent with the game from 50 hours to 300+ hours, and I'm much less likely to buy a cRPG game that is only turn-based.

 

X-com and Jagged Alliance are great examples of boring AF combat. I struggled as hell to finish either, not because it was too hard, but because I was falling asleep.

 

And whoever introduced a "5% sure miss" thing should get shot. Repeatedly, to make sure it hits.

[IndiraLightfoot]

@Manveru123 It's a matter of taste, and I can definitely see where you are coming from. Like you, I've actually replayed RTwP CRPGs much more often than turn-based ones. My craziest one is NWN2 OC+MotB (I'm on over 30 playhtroughs), and for BG1 (I'm beyond a dozen). BG2, however, still takes oodles of time with the expansion (the base game is more manageable: I have like 8 playthroughs on that one.) Then again, I have thousands upon thousands of hours on Civilization games - my record game, if I bundle them up as one.

 

EDIT: Let's just hope that Hurlshot never reads your comment about Jagged Alliance.

Edited January 3, 2019 by IndiraLightfoot

[Franknstein]

The implementation of a TB mode would require an overhaul equal to designing a whole new game. So, no, just a test. Or there is a whole design/prog/UI team at Obs that has nothing better to do.

[protopersona]

The implementation of a TB mode would require an overhaul equal to designing a whole new game. So, no, just a test. Or there is a whole design/prog/UI team at Obs that has nothing better to do.

Judging from the amount of UI, abilities, items, cyclopedia entries and interface changes that were in the leaked version I'd say yes, there was.

[AFA]

Maybe I'm cynical, but this seems like chasing the Divinity Original Sin money. "It was turn-based and made crazy money, let's add that."

 

Probably because I'm a Dragon Age fan and saw BW blatantly chasing Skyrim dollars.

 

I will try it out, though I prefer RTWP. This seems interesting though

[Wormerine]

RtwP is "old-fashioned" because there hasn't been a big game that would use that system in quite a while. Dragon Ages are probably what comes to mind, and they went for a more MMOish combat style even Origins, which is the closest to IE of old.

 

Turn Based are much more widely accepted. And no, not because Divinity did well. Because XCOM made turn based gameplay cool again. Since then we have seen couple excellent tactical turn-based titles.

 

RTwP? Not much comes to mind aside usual suspect, maybe except for Shadow Tactics, which was excellent but it quite a different genre and must have done well as Desperados are getting resurrected with ST team in charge.

[Manveru123]

RtwP is "old-fashioned" because there hasn't been a big game that would use that system in quite a while. Dragon Ages are probably what comes to mind, and they went for a more MMOish combat style even Origins, which is the closest to IE of old.

 

Turn Based are much more widely accepted. And no, not because Divinity did well. Because XCOM made turn based gameplay cool again. Since then we have seen couple excellent tactical turn-based titles.

 

RTwP? Not much comes to mind aside usual suspect, maybe except for Shadow Tactics, which was excellent but it quite a different genre and must have done well as Desperados are getting resurrected with ST team in charge.

Sword Coast Legends comes to mind.

 

But RTwP games seem to have a resurgence, and it was started with Pillars. Which is great. The biggest reason why there's more turn based games is because it's easier to implement from the programming side.

[dunehunter]

Imagining killing the 5k hp bosses in turn based mode, good luck!

Edited January 5, 2019 by dunehunter

[Starwars]

This whole thing just makes me feel old. Turnbased is now a way to attract more people and make more money... 

 

Back in my day (!) when Fallout 3 was about to come out, people always gave me the "turnbased is so outdated, it would never work" argument when we did the Oblivion with guns rants.

 

Yeah yeah, it's different but still amusing. The new X-Com really broke that "turnbased is OLD" stigma.

[protopersona]

This whole thing just makes me feel old. Turnbased is now a way to attract more people and make more money... 

 

Back in my day (!) when Fallout 3 was about to come out, people always gave me the "turnbased is so outdated, it would never work" argument when we did the Oblivion with guns rants.

 

Yeah yeah, it's different but still amusing. The new X-Com really broke that "turnbased is OLD" stigma.

Things come in cycles because almost everyone chooses to ignore history.

[Wormerine]

Sword Coast Legends comes to mind.

 

 

 

But RTwP games seem to have a resurgence, and it was started with Pillars. Which is great. The biggest reason why there's more turn based games is because it's easier to implement from the programming side.

Does it? Never hard of it before, or rather: probably heard about it and forgot it exists. Quick googled showed me it's a rather poorly received game and it's not even on sale anymore (?).

 

As a side note: going an unpopular route is something I support - being one of the few RtwP pause games makes PoE only that much more valuable to have going. However, it will always be a tough sell if you can't say "it's like the other game you really like, but...!".

[house2fly]

The implementation of a TB mode would require an overhaul equal to designing a whole new game. So, no, just a test. Or there is a whole design/prog/UI team at Obs that has nothing better to do.

and yet they didn't say a single word about it, just pulled it from the patch and clammed up. When they saw people were talking about it, why not at least say "the last patch accidentally included code from a couple of cut features, sorry about that haha"

[Manveru123]

 

Sword Coast Legends comes to mind.

 

 

 

But RTwP games seem to have a resurgence, and it was started with Pillars. Which is great. The biggest reason why there's more turn based games is because it's easier to implement from the programming side.

Does it? Never hard of it before, or rather: probably heard about it and forgot it exists. Quick googled showed me it's a rather poorly received game and it's not even on sale anymore (?).

 

As a side note: going an unpopular route is something I support - being one of the few RtwP pause games makes PoE only that much more valuable to have going. However, it will always be a tough sell if you can't say "it's like the other game you really like, but...!".

 

It was not a popular game. Not very good too. But it was decent enough for a playthrough for me, at least.

[juanval]

 

The implementation of a TB mode would require an overhaul equal to designing a whole new game. So, no, just a test. Or there is a whole design/prog/UI team at Obs that has nothing better to do.

and yet they didn't say a single word about it, just pulled it from the patch and clammed up. When they saw people were talking about it, why not at least say "the last patch accidentally included code from a couple of cut features, sorry about that haha"

Yeah. Obsidian is not playing fairly. Is not serious that nobody from the team, could drop some words about the TB filtration.

[daven]

Reading this entire topic i've come to the conclusion that...

 

Some people like turn based combat, some people like RTWP and some people like both.

 

I have to say it depends on the game. If they put in turn based combat into POE1 now.... it would take an ETERNITY to finish the damned thing. I like turn based in say... FFX. But even then I wish i could skip animations sometimes so it wasn't wasting my time. Casting double or triple holy's is a slog.

[algroth]

I might give it a try, though I tend to prefer RTwP. Regardless the option is very welcome.

Edited January 6, 2019 by algroth

[Ancelor]

any news with that?

Obsidian still silent?

[juanval]

any news with that?

Obsidian still silent?

 

Nothing at the moment. Perhaps in the next update they give some light.

[Archaven]

If they think they can make tonnes of money with TB I like to see they do it with a new title start from scratch. See how well it sells. Do a poll and don't rely on bias opinion of some posters who prefer TB or RTwP.