BG2 and POE2 (not what you think)

[Elric Galad]

The only thing that you sometimes regret from BG2 combat system was the depth of the spell system (especially for wizzards).

 

Unfortunately, it was this system which threw the balance out of the dungeon.

[Verde]

The only thing that you sometimes regret from BG2 combat system was the depth of the spell system (especially for wizzards).

 

Unfortunately, it was this system which threw the balance out of the dungeon.

But it is more fun then the tunnel vision we have in PoE. And like others said, its about fun.

 

One thing I've mulled over is just how combat centric Deadfire feels...like everything but the graphics took a backseat.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Verde

[gloomseeker]

The only thing that you sometimes regret from BG2 combat system was the depth of the spell system (especially for wizzards).

 

Unfortunately, it was this system which threw the balance out of the dungeon.

 

To be fair there was never any semblance of balance in BG2 and some builds could break the game. 

 

Spellcasters were incredibly weak at lower levels and they only came into their own after gaining enough levels. Wild Mages are just great in BG2 TOB but I have to say you have to be patient playing a level 1 Wild Mage in BG EE. I always preferred Wild Mages to Sorcerers because they are more "fun" (in the sense of entertainment value provided you don't mind getting into trouble from time to time -especially at lower levels). 

 

I'm not getting into the balance debate but I don't believe the obsession for balance makes for fun games (especially when it comes to single player games). 

[daven]

How would you compared Deadfire to something more contemporary such as... Dragonfall? That is one of the best of the ISO resurgence.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

How would you compared Deadfire to something more contemporary such as... Dragonfall? That is one of the best of the ISO resurgence.

Dragonfall is wonderful and its exploration of community, 'family' and bereavement sets it above and apart from many other games, not just crpgs.

 

Learning about monkias past, bit by bit, and wondering if ull ever be more than a poor replacement was compelling. To borrow a term from china mieville, ur playing the 'unchosen' but sometimes the unchosen is beautiful and necessary in its own way.

 

When you consider how much in vogue open worlds are, dragonfalls a great argument for keeping things geographically tight. It makes a great contrast to almost everything else.

 

Dont think the games that replayable and system-wise there aint much to it, but eh that dont really matter for what the game does.

 

dont think id want pillars to emulate it too much - such focus doesnt lend itself to enough different experiences to meet the franchises spec - but i like to think anyone creating a smaller hub within a larger game could learn a hell of a lot from dragonfall.

 

I need to go back to that game at some point but it emotionally drains me. dietrich, eiger and glory really capture the 'distant-yet-closer-than-kin' relationship u have with old colleagues. Esp dietrich, hes great.

 

Man, now i just want glory to come home, live a normal life with people who care, poor girl. Maybe this is how parents feel when their kids leave or something.

[gloomseeker]

Dragonfall has a rather classic structure with a central hub and missions. It doesn't try to reinvent the wheel but there is no reason for it to do that (the bad thing is that if you don't plan your runs you may end up missing out on content or vendors because you can't go back to these mission specific areas). 

 

Dragonfall did NPCs right (well except for Blitz but nobody likes Blitz) and more importantly they did have some good reason to stick together. 

 

In Deadfire you have your pal Eidér and even if some returning characters have some motivation for joining the Watcher due to their history together (or not) the rest of the band doesn't necessarily give you a real incentive to take them along (except for the strength in numbers argument). 

 

The real problem is that most companions in Deadfire are tied to factions but that doesn't mean you can't take offensive actions against these factions while these NPCs are tagging along. The relationship system is a bit off as well (crack some jokes and they will love you no matter what).

 

To me it's a bit of a deal breaker. If you want to make NPCs that feel like real people then they have to be believable and that means that they should be able to leave if you stray too far (I know of one character in Deadfire who will leave but all the others have very flexible morals). 

[xzar_monty]

The real problem is that most companions in Deadfire are tied to factions but that doesn't mean you can't take offensive actions against these factions while these NPCs are tagging along. The relationship system is a bit off as well (crack some jokes and they will love you no matter what).

 

 

 

Yeah, I just noticed this. Serafen seems to have a lot to say in general, which is fine with me. Now, I'm not particularly fond of the Principi, and there was this one discussion where I ended up being quite clearly against them. And this time, much to my surprise, the ordinarily loquacious Serafen said nothing. I would have expected him to give me an ultimatum (given how unforgiving he can be in questions like slavery), or at least a veiled threat concerning his leaving, but he just ignored the whole thing.

[Elric Galad]

 

I'm not getting into the balance debate but I don't believe the obsession for balance makes for fun games (especially when it comes to single player games). 

 

 

I think this depends on personal opinion.

 

There is nothing I feel more epic than having a party with complementary talents.

Same for action movies (that's why I enjoyed so much Seven Samuraïs or Rogue One ) ) 

 

If a couple of builds steal the spotlight from everyone else, I feel sad.

Also, in a tactical game, I like feeling a bit of challenge, while not being constrained to use a couple of semi-obscure builds (IWD2 was even worse in this aspect).

 

That's the reason why I was playing exclusively with companions in BG2. Their builds were not so OP and rather balanced between them, which adressed a bit the problem of OPness. (It's OK if MC is a bit above the pack.)

 

That's the reason why PoE series finally feel like "my favorite system".

I had tons of fun with BG2, but I cant' prevent myself from finding the system "old".

The whole game, of course, is as ageless as a high level druid.

Edited January 1, 2019 by Elric Galad

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

To me it's a bit of a deal breaker. If you want to make NPCs that feel like real people then they have to be believable and that means that they should be able to leave if you stray too far (I know of one character in Deadfire who will leave but all the others have very flexible morals). 

 

all the faction npcs have triggers that make them leave, and tbf theyre all misfits one way or another, tekehu resents his obligations, serafen dislikes the principi leadership, palleginas loyal to the republics, but that loyalty only goes one way. maias become jaded. feel theyre all taking time out from their lives for whatever reason even if they plan on going back. like maia pursues a relationship with cloud-cuckoolander xoti of all people, if that aint indicative of wanting to escape *something*, i dunno what is.

 

i really dont feel their presence is that much of a stretch when there are plenty of people in FO, BG, Arcanum etc. that have no reason to be hanging with u other than they were standing on certain road when u passed.

 

also i dont think is helpful to consider npcs as real people, even if they can be catalysts for very real emotions. devs are constrained by resources. only so much time in day for narrative designers to compose different variations of each encounter. judging work by how well it reflects 'reality' without acknowledging limits and tendencies of medium just not productive imo. like u can go through every conversation in deadfire and say 'serafen should say this', 'serafen should say this' yadda yadda but suspect alex scokel needed to sleep and eat at some point - and liam o'brien costs money.

 

characters in other games may be written more thoroughly and to the same end - every conversation bespoke and complete - but expecting big open-world, branching crpg to reap benefits of linearity just recipe for disappointment. i feel is better to start from bare minimum of content required to satisfy form then consider why certain things were added - rather than start from simulacrum of real world and subtract.

 

as i mentioned earlier in thread, more writing means more holes to pick. back in day, peeps wouldnt have imagined computer game acting remotely lifelike. branching conversations were a rare treat ud excitedly count on ur fingers. u wouldnt think of comparing it to natural conversation, wouldve been like holding cave painting to standard of photograph. we now getting to the uncanny valley where were falling between abstraction and replication.

[gloomseeker]

 

 

I'm not getting into the balance debate but I don't believe the obsession for balance makes for fun games (especially when it comes to single player games). 

 

 

I think this depends on personal opinion.

 

There is nothing I feel more epic than having a party with complementary talents.

Same for action movies (that's why I enjoyed so much Seven Samuraïs or Rogue One ) ) 

 

If a couple of builds steal the spotlight from everyone else, I feel sad.

Also, in a tactical game, I like feeling a bit of challenge, while not being constrained to use a couple of semi-obscure builds (IWD2 was even worse in this aspect).

 

That's the reason why I was playing exclusively with companions in BG2. Their builds were not so OP and rather balanced between them, which adressed a bit the problem of OPness. (It's OK if MC is a bit above the pack.)

 

That's the reason why PoE series finally feel like "my favorite system".

I had tons of fun with BG2, but I cant' prevent myself from finding the system "old".

The whole game, of course, is as ageless as a high level druid.

 

 

In all fairness in BG characters do have different roles. 

 

The big fighter type may make fun of the thief but if they're going in a dungeon it will be the thief's turn to shine simply because the entire party would die without him or her. 

 

That's why I like playing thieves in the BG series. A thief character is definitely not the strongest in a straight fight but there is the self reliance factor and it opens up possibilities to recruit NPCs without having to worry about having someone on trap finding and lockpicking duty. 

 

To me a balanced party is not exactly the same thing as having balanced classes. 

 

 

 

To me it's a bit of a deal breaker. If you want to make NPCs that feel like real people then they have to be believable and that means that they should be able to leave if you stray too far (I know of one character in Deadfire who will leave but all the others have very flexible morals). 

 

all the faction npcs have triggers that make them leave, and tbf theyre all misfits one way or another, tekehu resents his obligations, serafen dislikes the principi leadership, palleginas loyal to the republics, but that loyalty only goes one way. maias become jaded. feel theyre all taking time out from their lives for whatever reason even if they plan on going back. like maia pursues a relationship with cloud-cuckoolander xoti of all people, if that aint indicative of wanting to escape *something*, i dunno what is.

 

i really dont feel their presence is that much of a stretch when there are plenty of people in FO, BG, Arcanum etc. that have no reason to be hanging with u other than they were standing on certain road when u passed.

 

also i dont think is helpful to consider npcs as real people, even if they can be catalysts for very real emotions. devs are constrained by resources. only so much time in day for narrative designers to compose different variations of each encounter. judging work by how well it reflects 'reality' without acknowledging limits and tendencies of medium just not productive imo. like u can go through every conversation in deadfire and say 'serafen should say this', 'serafen should say this' yadda yadda but suspect alex scokel needed to sleep and eat at some point - and liam o'brien costs money.

 

characters in other games may be written more thoroughly and to the same end - every conversation bespoke and complete - but expecting big open-world, branching crpg to reap benefits of linearity just recipe for disappointment. i feel is better to start from bare minimum of content required to satisfy form then consider why certain things were added - rather than start from simulacrum of real world and subtract.

 

as i mentioned earlier in thread, more writing means more holes to pick. back in day, peeps wouldnt have imagined computer game acting remotely lifelike. branching conversations were a rare treat ud excitedly count on ur fingers. u wouldnt think of comparing it to natural conversation, wouldve been like holding cave painting to standard of photograph. we now getting to the uncanny valley where were falling between abstraction and replication.

 

 

I was specifically comparing Deadfire to Dragonfall on the subject of NPCs. 

 

You can't keep a straight face and say that the NPCs in Deadfire have such good reasons to tag along compared to the NPCs in Dragonfall. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by gloomseeker

[AFA]

Not really fair to compared Deadfire to Baldur's Gate 2, since things have moved forward so much as far as tech and storytelling. BG2 had brilliant sidequests and good banter, but the main quest was only held together by Irenicus. You still had pointless, pace-destroying bits like the Underdark and the shark city. You had cliched, one-dimension characters, etc. BG2 is kind of like Starship Troopers. It has been copied so many times that the original comes off as a cliched mess, when it was actually breaking ground in its day.

 

The whole "Baldur's Gate spiritual successor" trend is getting old. It has been going on since Dragon Age Origins. Strange that no one, not even Bioware, has really tried to recreate DAO. Hell, even they tried to shoehorn two Irenicus ripoffs into Inquisition.

[Verde]

Not really fair to compared Deadfire to Baldur's Gate 2, since things have moved forward so much as far as tech and storytelling. BG2 had brilliant sidequests and good banter, but the main quest was only held together by Irenicus. You still had pointless, pace-destroying bits like the Underdark and the shark city. You had cliched, one-dimension characters, etc. BG2 is kind of like Starship Troopers. It has been copied so many times that the original comes off as a cliched mess, when it was actually breaking ground in its day.

 

The whole "Baldur's Gate spiritual successor" trend is getting old. It has been going on since Dragon Age Origins. Strange that no one, not even Bioware, has really tried to recreate DAO. Hell, even they tried to shoehorn two Irenicus ripoffs into Inquisition.

Blasphemy! Underdark was one of the best parts!

[AFA]

 

Not really fair to compared Deadfire to Baldur's Gate 2, since things have moved forward so much as far as tech and storytelling. BG2 had brilliant sidequests and good banter, but the main quest was only held together by Irenicus. You still had pointless, pace-destroying bits like the Underdark and the shark city. You had cliched, one-dimension characters, etc. BG2 is kind of like Starship Troopers. It has been copied so many times that the original comes off as a cliched mess, when it was actually breaking ground in its day.

 

The whole "Baldur's Gate spiritual successor" trend is getting old. It has been going on since Dragon Age Origins. Strange that no one, not even Bioware, has really tried to recreate DAO. Hell, even they tried to shoehorn two Irenicus ripoffs into Inquisition.

Blasphemy! Underdark was one of the best parts!

 

 

The Underdark is what would happen if the worst parts of the Fade and the Deep Roads from DAO had a baby.

[Verde]

 

 

Not really fair to compared Deadfire to Baldur's Gate 2, since things have moved forward so much as far as tech and storytelling. BG2 had brilliant sidequests and good banter, but the main quest was only held together by Irenicus. You still had pointless, pace-destroying bits like the Underdark and the shark city. You had cliched, one-dimension characters, etc. BG2 is kind of like Starship Troopers. It has been copied so many times that the original comes off as a cliched mess, when it was actually breaking ground in its day.

 

The whole "Baldur's Gate spiritual successor" trend is getting old. It has been going on since Dragon Age Origins. Strange that no one, not even Bioware, has really tried to recreate DAO. Hell, even they tried to shoehorn two Irenicus ripoffs into Inquisition.

Blasphemy! Underdark was one of the best parts!

The Underdark is what would happen if the worst parts of the Fade and the Deep Roads from DAO had a baby.

The Fade is one of the worst RPG levels of all time. There is no comparison.

[AFA]

 

 

 

Not really fair to compared Deadfire to Baldur's Gate 2, since things have moved forward so much as far as tech and storytelling. BG2 had brilliant sidequests and good banter, but the main quest was only held together by Irenicus. You still had pointless, pace-destroying bits like the Underdark and the shark city. You had cliched, one-dimension characters, etc. BG2 is kind of like Starship Troopers. It has been copied so many times that the original comes off as a cliched mess, when it was actually breaking ground in its day.

 

The whole "Baldur's Gate spiritual successor" trend is getting old. It has been going on since Dragon Age Origins. Strange that no one, not even Bioware, has really tried to recreate DAO. Hell, even they tried to shoehorn two Irenicus ripoffs into Inquisition.

Blasphemy! Underdark was one of the best parts!

The Underdark is what would happen if the worst parts of the Fade and the Deep Roads from DAO had a baby.

The Fade is one of the worst RPG levels of all time. There is no comparison.

 

 

As far as bad sections in great games goes, the whole second chapter of Neverwinter Nights 2 is this. Seriously, the docks and the orcs are both giant slogs and a waste of time. The Fade is at least short.

[IndiraLightfoot]

The Fade as well as big chunks of the Dwarven caverns are well at par with the orcs, and the docks, and the dreadful meandering to bugbear caves and back again. I have to say that you both have found bad cases, so why try to decide a winner? They both were disappointing, yeah?

Edited January 2, 2019 by IndiraLightfoot

[Verde]

It's not really that short tho. That's one of the reasons it's so hated.

 

I can't recall that NN2 section, but I'm gonna look it up.

[Verde]

The Fade as well as big chunks of the Dwarven caverns are well at par with the orcs, and the docks, and the dreadful meandering to bugbear caves and back again. I have to say that you both have found bad cases, so why try to decide a winner? They both were disappointing, yeah?

We are just having fun and debating. I don't sense any hostility, do you?

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

The Fade as well as big chunks of the Dwarven caverns are well at par with the orcs, and the docks, and the dreadful meandering to bugbear caves and back again. I have to say that you both have found bad cases, so why try to decide a winner? They both were disappointing, yeah?

We are just having fun and debating. I don't sense any hostility, do you?

 

You misunderstood me.

 

I was simply supporting you guys in underlining that they were all pretty darn bad. I never interpreted you as aggro in any way. I wanted to congratulate you both as winners in this pretty interesting debate.

[Verde]

Ah my bad...on a side note I haven't been able to find much info on said bad levels in NWN 2 ha

[AFA]

Ah my bad...on a side note I haven't been able to find much info on said bad levels in NWN 2 ha

 

I thought it was Act 2, turns out, that was the best part in the game, with the trial and stuff. It is the second half of Act 1, after the lizardfolk arc. You get to Neverwinter, then the story totally stops and you have to do odd jobs for the guards or the criminals. Then after that, you have to go save some random guy from orcs. These both takes hours, and feature some almost endless battles. The orc arc alone has two long dungeons filled with trash mobs, and you are forced to give one of your precious party slots to the world's most boring paladin.

 

These have nothing to do with the plot what-so-ever. You are basically earning permission to get to the next story relevant part of the city. As mentioned above, the long bugbear dungeon is a side quest in this area as well. The warehouse battle for either side is the worst in the docks. Have to clear like 8 rooms full of either heavy armored guardsmen or sneak-attacking rogues, depending on faction, and you can easily cause them to respawn.

[Triple - A Foxy Lad]

I was specifically comparing Deadfire to Dragonfall on the subject of NPCs. 

 

You can't keep a straight face and say that the NPCs in Deadfire have such good reasons to tag along compared to the NPCs in Dragonfall. 

 

mang i can keep a straight face and say lots of things, most of them to ur dad, but whatevs.

 

point i was making is that we're comparing characters in two games that are operating within extremely different structures, and part of my thang is that i try to highlight these structures when i see them.

 

saying that the content of a smallish game, based in one hub (that u walk around in by urself, incidentally - so less reactivity for the narrative designers to fret about) is better tailored to the *three* companions that are all in ur starting party is a given to the point of banality. Deadfire has to keep infinitely more plates spinning -  so holding it to same standard of coherence and relational depth just isnt useful.

 

dragonfall is excellent at what it does, but is not huge and gameplay wise is not great deal more than a sophisticated VN / flash game. its less complicated than many nwn custom campaigns.

 

like if u want to use dragonfalls success as argument for poe to narrow its focus at expense of doing other things, thats fine - i straight up said earlier, peeps could learn a lot from dragonfall - however ull find others will disagree strongly on poe focusing on such. 

 

also part of poe's appeal for me is that the series is striving to unify and master as many aspects of the crpg as possible. even if this goal might be hubris, its attempts are often fascinating. and part of the reason i keep going back to examine it from different angles.

 

honestly, as much as i enjoy such things in other games, im not sure if i want poe to focus on the fictional family aspect that dragonfall and the bioware rpgs often do. kinda for similar reason i was lukewarm on idea of obs chucking in romance. it just aint what i follow them for.

 

EDIT: fml why cant i type.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Triple - A Foxy Lad

[gloomseeker]

Calling Dragonfall a glorified VN is rather nonsensical so let's agree to disagree. 

 

 

I was specifically comparing Deadfire to Dragonfall on the subject of NPCs. 

 

You can't keep a straight face and say that the NPCs in Deadfire have such good reasons to tag along compared to the NPCs in Dragonfall. 

 

mang i can keep a straight face and say lots of things, most of them to ur dad, but whatevs.

 

I don't care much for your glibness but at least now we've established that you're full of hot air.

 

Thanks for making that point crystal clear. 

[daven]

Yep completely agree about NWN2. It always kills my motivation to keep playing in those areas.

[AFA]

Yep completely agree about NWN2. It always kills my motivation to keep playing in those areas.

 

I have a save just after the orc quests. When I do a new playthrough, I play up to the docks, export that character, then import them into that save with a save editor. Saves about five hours

 

It would be manageable if it was just the docks, even with the warehouse fight, but the orc slog is uncalled for.