JFSOCC

Eh it's okay, we have a thread around somewhere that literally went like 15+ pages on this one thing. more like several threads.

It's an old thread, but what would you think of this as a way to define borders?: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62261-a-wilderness-idea/

I got a metal chest from the 1600's in our house (family heirloom) One of big-ass chests too. There is no way in the world you can bash it in. What about if you use a shotgun? Actually, since this game will have some early gunpowder rifles and pistols, have there been any mentions about bombs and such? I don't think a black powder gun would work, but putting enough black powder in the lock might. I do believe it would damage the content, however.

It'd be cool with a calendar if on some days of the year there's a festival, with altered maps, and some parties going on, magical fireworks, colourful lights on the promenade, that sort of thing. gives a nice alive feel to the place if it's not always the same.

He suffers from a boyish appearance, but I think he's a decent actor. I liked him a lot in Black Snake Moan.

Don't kill yourself. Also, Alcohol is a depressant.

The Netherlands was the first country where it was legal to marry a same sex partner. We're all very curious why it's such a big deal for some people still.

love it, but very impractical in terms of work that needs to be done to fit this for every dialogue.

I got a metal chest from the 1600's in our house (family heirloom) One of big-ass chests too. There is no way in the world you can bash it in.

Tot Teacher of woe; the harsh mistress; the just. Goddess of wonder, curiosity, mystery and loss. Sometimes worshipped as a deity of death. Tot is ancient, the beginnings of her worship are, like so much of her, shrouded in mystery. The clergy of Tot teaches us that it is the business of Tot to teach the wilfully ignorant, and punish them if they refuse to learn. She cannot abide average minds, but exceptional minds unused are simply reviled beyond anything by her. She presents those in need of a nudge with a mystery worth exploring, a sudden insight which requires testing. A town guard comfortable in his position, even though he could easily make it to captain, gets presented with a murder of a friend A wizard capable of crafting great spells but content to only learn those of others, will see a piece of the fabric of the universe. A boy who doesn't know what he wants in life and sits on his ass all day is forced into exile. She doesn't tell, she teaches. If the town guard doesn't follow the leads presented to him, he will be tortured by guilt for never exploring it the wizard doesn't follow her observation, she will go mad with wonder If the boy returns to his town, he will settle into a boring life, feeling unfulfilled. But... If the town guard follows his leads, perseveres in the face of opposition, he will find out he's the best damn crime solver in the region. The wizard who spends her fortune on building a lab, on testing, taking risks, perhaps losing her sight in the process, will discover such a powerful insight into the aether that she will be renown for ages to come. The boy finds the life of an adventurer suited to his sensibilities. Outwitting a band of bandits and earning himself a small reputation. Tot is also a teacher of value. Those who do not value what they have will find themselves without it. Whether that is the tools of their trade, the life of a loved one, the love of a loved one, the home in which they live. They will find it taken from them, and no amount of supplication will return it. Temples to Tot are filled with gifts of remorseful souls, traditionally something related to what was lost, and a note attached (often written by the priests of Tot who can all write) mentioning what lesson is learned. Rare but not unheard of are encounters with Tot herself. Without exception the story is the same: Someone sees someone at the edge of a crowd, the corner of a tavern, near the tree line of a forest. The moment this person, who is difficult to see, is noticed, she leaves. The person curious enough follows, but will find his path full of obstacles. Almost never do they catch up. Those who don't go mad with longing, despite never having seen the mysterious figure, despite not knowing what made them so curious. Those who do catch up see Tot turn around and face them, often in an uncomfortable location, like a back alley in a bad neighbourhood, on a mossy tree stump over rapids, in a brothel-room occupied by others. Tot turns around and smiles, vanishes and leaves behind a token. The type of token varies, but it's usefulness is never in question. Without exception, only one person at a time ever sees her. And when Tot vanishes they are left in dire straights, more often than not, have to overcome even more challenges to get away. Survivors of an encounter with Tot are forever more impetuous, despising laziness, despising excuses, hating cowardice. They are filled with a need for doing things which matter. The only relaxation for these people is when they have worked hard. Others might find them hard to keep up with, slightly unpleasant, and intimidating. The effect tapers off with age and ability, but only slightly. Tot is depicted as a woman who is mostly obscured. Sometimes she is depicted taking something from an ugly man on his knees.

hey wyrm you already posted the last one Goh The Sick Artist. Patron of misunderstood genius, autism, savants and "special" people. Often depicted standing over a dead artist, the artist's respective tools of the trade in hand, altering their work. There's much debate about whether Goh is benevolent or not. Artists down on their luck tend to ironically say they've been blessed by Goh. Artists with no faith in their craft futilely invoke his name to improve the popularity of their mediocre work. For Goh deals double. Created a masterpiece of art which should last throughout the ages? Nobody will get it until long after you've died a pauper's death. Always bullied that little idiot boy down the street? turns out he knows the name of every member of every royal line down to be beginning of their dynasty. That man you've always thought was a little off? Well, he did find a way to more efficiently till the land. And after that reclusive woman died last year, we found the most beautiful frescoes painted on... well her entire interior. Lover of irony, he'll make your most hated creations popular and lets your pet project whither into oblivion. He'll give you insight into a trade you're not part of. Blesses you with gifts you don't desire. When inspiration strikes in the night with no paper nor quill available in a three mile radius, blame Goh That little ditty you've been humming for several days straight, even though it's dumb and repetitive, blame Goh. Your most inspirational speeches are forgotten, but your lamest one-liners will be quoted back to you until the day you die. While mostly hated, it is noted that most people who have to endure Goh's blessings find their work redeemed after death. Some artists have committed suicide in front of their art while invoking Goh in the hopes of gaining appreciation for their work, if not in life, then at least in death. Others curse his name and blame him for all their failures. Some call him the Jealous artist, not allowing those more brilliant than him to surpass him in fame Others call him the Critical redeemer, saving brilliant work from oblivion and promoting great work, after the artist is no longer able to. Some believe he doesn't exist as anything other than a convenient excuse to explain the popularity of mediocrity, the irony of many artists' sad fate, and ones own artistic failures. God of appreciation after the fact? preventer of hubris amongst the gifted? There is a decent clerical following of Goh, they seek out the gifted, both during life and after they perish. While not a very powerful group, they use their alms to feed starving artists, and bring them in contact with possible patrons. They also provide asylum to mentally unstable, the mad, the insane, the cracked, the traumatised, the eccentric, the autistic, the retarded. While they believe most who are helped are not likely touched by Goh, they believe that Goh is a lover of all that which is unique, original, off-beat and inspired. It is not strange then that the Asylum has produced some significant movement in the art world, science and magic. Nor is it strange that some of those genius died because of the psychotic rage of their fellow patients.

You can have your cake and eat it too. let specialists pay you more for the gear they're specialised in, and less for all the junk you "just want to get rid off"

Right, because cultural stereotypes are always true. Every black American is a Basketball pro, every Asian is great at math. We know this is not true. Why would I somehow be better at wielding a long-sword, simply because I've been born in Europe, than a Japanese warrior schooled in kendo, iaido and jodo, even though I've never held a sword in my life? Why would I not be able to eventually master the use of a cultural weapon like the katana if I trained hard for it? I think it makes more sense for "cultural" weapons to have traits which are more desired by said culture, rather than absolute bonuses. A culture dealing mostly with banded armour might favour slashing weapons over piercing weapons. A culture where battles are fought on an open field have weapons with longer reach, while those urban cultures have weapons more suited to confined quarters. cultures where the underclass is not allowed weapons which means that tools are re-purposed for combat. (like nun-chucks which were made for threshing)

I will put up one final defence for the colour coding and then leave it lying (pun not intended) Colour-blindness, while a fair argument, does not apply to every colour. in fact the army used false colour-blindness tiles to pick out those who would cheat on the test in order to get discharged. (or some such) Second, while it may be "gaudy" to have a gazillion different colours next to each other, when will that ever happen? How many "special" options do you expect to see next to eachother in any given conversation. Do you believe every conversation will immediately allow you to both seduce AND convince, AND intimidate AND lie AND bluff? Most of the time, I reckon you'd have one special option, maybe sometimes two, but only ever rarely three or more. Finally, offending cultures? really. I don't think you can have artistic integrity and not offend at least someone in some way. You can't make everyone happy. I'm perfectly ok with subdued colours.

The Josh bashing is getting a little tiresome. How about you try to be a little more constructive, and keep in mind that you are not owed total obedience from the developers. They're making their game, you decided to back that. (I assume) Listening and communicating with their fans is not something the Devs HAVE to do, that they choose to makes us lucky. Why? having more items doesn't mean you can equip them all, you'll still be making choices.

if a high speech related skill (whether that's diplomacy, intimidate, bluff, the more abstract "speech" or something else) would give you extra conversation options, not necessarily better options, and not marked options, then you gain the benefit of extra dialogue options while still allowing the player to role-play his choices. A high speech skill is then no longer an auto-win, now is low skill an automatic loss. Whether persuasion works should not be based on a variable which may change whenever you try it, despite nothing else having changed. I will argue against dice rolling for speech checks, because ultimately that will mean that a large part of your success is based on luck, rather than skill.

Verisimilitude ranks quite high with me. P:E need not be an exacting combat simulator, but I do think that it should retain a reasonably high degree of realism. If all the slashing/piercing/crushing weapons are more or less as effective as all other slashing/piercing/crushing weapons, what's the point in having more than three weapons (one from each category) in the entire game? It's merely a matter of aesthetics if two daggers are as good as two short swords or if flails are as good as maces with no significant advantages or disadvantages to speak of. Does weapon selection matter from lower to higher levels, or are such choices as we make at higher levels merely a game of paper dolls? Does my light, flanged mace go with these boots or should I go with my quarterstaff? Yes, I'm being facetious with that last question, but not with the rest of this post. I'm both concerned and curious about the significance of the "tactical challenges" regarding weaponsplay. There are other ways to distinguish between weapons, different bonuses allowed, different skills linked to weapons, speed and damage differences, where you can choose faster but less damaging weapons or slower more powerful ones. Or slow weak weapons with plenty of mods/skills associated with them.

Perhaps it's not the weapon but the skill with which it is wielded which decides how effective a weapon is, with the difference between weapons becoming negligible the more skill is applied. Realism is one of those things... a single dagger thrust to the neck would be enough to kill someone, yet I highly doubt there will be single hit kills in this game. or permanent damage and loss of limbs for the PC. Just how realistic do you want it?

Cool, a chance to practise my creativity Meccatican also known as Lhadangshan in the south(too obvious?) God(s?) of travel, special places and reflection. Associated with misfortune, happiness, serendipity, and wisdom. Ever had that feeling when you find a place, either on holiday, or after a day's long travel, when you find a flowering field, with a nice stream nearby, the sun on your back, and crickets chirping and the occasional bird-call of insect-hunting birds near the water. Or when you're in a foreign city and you're tired and you find a relatively secluded plaza with a café situated there, and you sit down and enjoy the shade of the ancient oak trees towering in the middle of the plaza in the middle of the city. And you're not exactly paying attention to how you got there. But the place is a nice change of pace, and you feel that energy in the air? Meccatican is the patron of such places. Born into a wealthy trade family, Meccatican wasted his family's resources travelling the world, meeting people, enjoying new things and earthly pleasures. His lust for culture and nature couldn't be outmatched by the frequent times he got robbed, beaten, scammed, cheated, and lost. No-one knows exactly how Meccatican ascended into godhood, although most sources agree that he was born a mortal. And while he was the last of his line and his trade business went bankrupt, ancient records do show that there was such a person alive some five hundred years ago. What we do know is that one day, people realised that the traveller they had come across now was identical in age and looks to another traveller they had come across a life-time ago. It is said that Meccatican's love for life made him immortal, that his yearning for learning made him wise and that his constant misfortune made him wiser. Although no organised priesthood exists to support Meccatican, many who after a lifetime of searching found a place which they fell in love with, a place special to them, do pay respect by building a shrine to Meccatican. Because of this shrines to Meccatican are as diverse in style, look, size and quality as the stories about the traveller himself are. Also because of this shrines to Meccatican are often found in special places, some would say places of power. Not every god is pleased with this annexing of land, though some are more tolerant than others. In the South the same or a similar god named Lhadangshan is worshipped. And while the stories of Lhadangshan are strikingly similar, there are some distinctions between them which causes debate about whether it is the same Deity. In the south the story is about an exiled king rather than a rich wastrel, a teacher who claims wisdom cannot be taught, but who encourages us to seek it nevertheless. Here there is a legacy of disciples who have formed a clergy, bound to travel and teach and to seek wisdom. They abhor the idea of building shrines, dismissing it as messing with perfection. And while most don't believe that the stories about Meccatican are true, some believe Meccatican is the reincarnation of Lhadangshan, while others believe that there is room on earth for both, and that their message is similar enough that either deity is worthy of worship. It is too soon to tell whether those who worship Lhadangshan and Meccatican will remain respectful of the differences in belief, will merge, or end up contesting eachother. Same or no, in the last century no-one has met either incarnation of the deity, but an increasing amount of people are finding secluded places where they did not expect them, often with a surreal beauty, and after leaving these places, are unable to ever find them again. Those few who have had these experiences often end up being exceptionally unfortunate, happy, and inspirational teachers. These few have in equal parts both attributed their experience to Meccatican and Lhadangshan. In some parts of the world there are those who have decided to compromise and call them the friendly travellers, the wise twins, or the hapless. Where North and South converge, coins are being minted with on one side Meccatican, in ravaged clothes, smiling with a walking stick in hand, mule next to him, and on the other side Lhadangshan, crown on his head, smiling under a giant oak. --- Inspiration

love for Grieg eh? this is my favourite piece of Grieg

-Magical items are very rare, gold for consumables: lll -Loot is "branded/tagged", origin of items affect NPCs differently: l -Crafted magical items are few, unique and true achievements: lll -Temporary abstract armour degradation in combat, repairs are "automagical": ll -Armours and weapons can get "enfeebled"/"fatigued" over time, easy repair: ll -Party-members can have individual (non-party) quests in cities to showcase and challenge their personal strengths and weaknesses. lll -Beast-of-burden teams embodying the deep stash; they are useful and sometimes shady: ll -Give magical non-weapon items much more love: ll -Magical artefacts for our houses and strongholds: ll -Maps, weather and environment affecting spells and the party: l -Nice UI for weather and temperature, including an adaptive fog of war: l added a few l's

"it's always been like this" has never been a very good argument in any context. Alright, I get the dumb down argument. So let me pose a different question. Hopefully more at the core of the argument. "In what way would inventory management be a fun and challenging part of the game, without becoming tedious or arbitrary"

The only games where I really notice the numbers are the grindy ones like the Diablos and certain MMOs and stuff. Coincidentally, these are also the "rpgs" I tend to least like to play. This analogy would hold true if the "placed xp" didn't directly interfere with the taste of the "wine." VtM:B slapped me in the face HARD multiple times when I chose "combat option." The "wine" didn't taste very good at all in fact it tasted more like a poison because even people firmly in the camp of placed xp realized that the scenario I had given them equated to a meaningless choice by me. I wouldn't exactly call that a success of an xp system. There was NEVER a point in time where I thought the combat option was equally viable to a stealth path. Never. Stealth was pretty much always easier. You can tell me that after you answer the question above. Which path is "best" in the above scenario? If it's hard to figure out that means there's actual choice involved not the non-choice of Josh's example or the non-existent options of VtM:B. Simple. The optimal path is a combination of the Combat Path, the Stealth Path, and the Diplomatic path. E.g., first you sneak in and rob the secret room, then you sneak back out and approach them diplomatically, and once you've taken over the cult you kill everyone. This yields the following rewards: 30,000 quest completion XP, 15,000 XP for killing the cult leader, 12,500 XP for finding the treasure room, 10,000 XP for tricking the cult, all the loot in the entire complex, all the cult leaders items, and your choice of quest reward item. It is by far the most profitable solution. This is why rewarding XP based on using tools, rather than achieving goals, is a bad idea: it encourages the player to use more tools than is necessary to complete a task, resulting in redundancy. Apparently I didn't make this clear enough but each of those paths are exclusive to completing the quest. There is no "all 3" option. If you do the stealth path first and come back all you'll find are dead bodies and an empty cave. You have, after all, just stolen the only artifact of their god they possessed. The cult leader would've likely lost complete control of his cult and the members would have lost morale and will. You would come back to nothing which is why the quest was completed in the first place. The quest for those who can't figure it out is "Remove the cult that is menacing our town/city." If you try the diplomatic option they have again left their cave as you told them to. They now follow you their "god." The artifact is "yours." If you for some stupid reason try to betray one of the few advantages you have gained by using the Evil Path you will gain zip for kill xp (because they are now friendly to you) and paltry loot off the collective members corpses. That is of course assuming you do not get horribly overwhelmed by near endless spawning hordes of them if you initiate on them wrong. You have failed this test quite handily. I see your points, and they're well made when applied to the examples you give. So, let's assume that encounters will be designed with the reward system in mind (whichever that would be) And thus engineered to avoid abuse. Let's assume that whichever path you choose, the rewards will reflect the difficulty. with a small margin allowed for preference. (since some players will find one path easier than another.) Because I believe -that- is the core of this entire discussion. The inherent mistrust of a proper risk/reward balance. I think you needn't be afraid. I believe that with an objective based reward system, and slight differences in reward based on which path you choose, no choice will be automatically the best one. Stealth might reward you with items which improve your stealth abilities, while choosing combat you may gain loot which improves your combat ability, and if you pick diplomatic options, perhaps you can convince your opponents to give up the location of that cloak of charisma +1. (an oversimplified example to be sure, but I hope it gets my point across) You are correct in saying that objective based rewards are not automatically better, but I do believe they will offer more room for the developers to build encounters which don't have a single right answer, which in the past was sometimes the case.

yeah, that was basically what I meant. obviously no weapon will always be the right choice, that'd be just as lame. thanks.