Backer Beta and the Delay

[Verenti]

Good day,

 

I would to suggest that the backer beta should be opened to all backers on or before April 3rd.

 

I can understand the need to delay the release to assure the quality of the final product. I wholeheartedly support this move. However, we were told April 3rd. Moreover we put forward our money for Pillars 2 well in advance of the release. As an act of good faith, I believe that the backer beta should be expanded. If we cannot play a released Pillars 2 on April 3rd, we should at least play something  that is Pillars 2.

 

You might say that the backer beta backers might find this unfair. One could argue this, however, I do not think it is unfair. They still got to play the beta for months before us regular backers. You can keep the release of the Beta on the old release date, and they'd still have exclusive opportunity to play the beta before that game was supposed to release.

 

Presented for your consideration.

[SonicMage117]

Would you like a special bonus item for your troubles instead?

 

The delay is to fix as many bugs as possible. The beta cannot be extended fir the reason that the timeframe for the delay should be focused on fixing bugs and not on feedback. Player feedback would only be more of a hindrance du5rimg this time.

 

So... special bonus item for backers? In the words of Keiji Iafune "It's better than nothing."

[rheingold]

A tad to much entitlement here... seriously how are you entitled to a product you didn't pay for but others did, because a related product release date has been delayed, not cancelled, delayed. The mind boggles.

[Soulmojo]

I too support this move. I would rather wait another 4-5+ month to receive a product which is blanced, bug free as much as it can be. 

 

In essence this is good news to me.

 

 

Would you like a special bonus item for your troubles instead?

The delay is to fix as many bugs as possible. The beta cannot be extended fir the reason that the timeframe for the delay should be focused on fixing bugs and not on feedback. Player feedback would only be more of a hindrance du5rimg this time.

So... special bonus item for backers? In the words of Keiji Iafune "It's better than nothing."

 

 

Well not just to fix bugs. There are many balance changes coming. I think it is a good idea to gather telemetry data - if nothing else - from the beta to see how it is working...or not.

 

Honestly why do we deserve a consolation prize for waiting? Fixing issues like weapon damage, penetration, cast times, stat balance is the reward itself. As I said abowe I would rather wait for another x month just to get a finished product which is tested rather than free stuff. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Soulmojo

[Wormerine]

You might say that the backer beta backers might find this unfair. One could argue this, however, I do not think it is unfair. They still got to play the beta for months before us regular backers.

Not unfair, more like plain stupid. I apologise that it sounds mean, but I really can’t see the logic here. Is it the first game you ever backed/preordered? Games get delayed all the time. Original release window is rarely an actual one.

 

What really baffles me is this idea that by delaying the game backers are somehow wronged. “Oh no, Obsidian is investing an extra month of wages to polish up a product I backed. Damn you! I demand something to compensate!”

 

Not that I would be offended if the beta was open. Please, feel free to play short, rough side content with dodgy performance and unbalanced/not fully implimented mechanics.

[JerekKruger]

A tad to much entitlement here... seriously how are you entitled to a product you didn't pay for but others did, because a related product release date has been delayed, not cancelled, delayed. The mind boggles.

 

Moreover, at the time of backing no specific release date was given, so you can't even really complain that you wouldn't have backed otherwise. 

[Verenti]

 

You might say that the backer beta backers might find this unfair. One could argue this, however, I do not think it is unfair. They still got to play the beta for months before us regular backers.

Not unfair, more like plain stupid. I apologise that it sounds mean, but I really can’t see the logic here. Is it the first game you ever backed/preordered? Games get delayed all the time. Original release window is rarely an actual one.

 

What really baffles me is this idea that by delaying the game backers are somehow wronged. “Oh no, Obsidian is investing an extra month of wages to polish up a product I backed. Damn you! I demand something to compensate!”

 

Not that I would be offended if the beta was open. Please, feel free to play short, rough side content with dodgy performance and unbalanced/not fully implimented mechanics.

 

 

This is not the first product I've backed. Several Kickstarters, including many games released by InXile, which might be the closest company to Obsidian in terms of original content they produce have done this for several kickstarters, including Wastelands 2 and Torment. However, they are not they only companies that I have backed that have given access to betas when the final release is overshot. I think Universim has done this, Project Nimbus did this. Those are only projects that I've backed. There are enough examples to precedent a norm regarding this practice.

 

A tad to much entitlement here... seriously how are you entitled to a product you didn't pay for but others did, because a related product release date has been delayed, not cancelled, delayed. The mind boggles.

 

Is the "backer beta" a free standing product, open to consumption? That would be like calling the space pig a product.

 

Pillars of Eternity 2 is the product and I, like the rest of you paid well in advance for said product. I did the same for Pillars 1. This is not a normal preorder, which you may pay for a month in advance, this is chipping in money for a product with no guarantee of quality at the outset. I am entitled, yes. I am entitled to Pillars 2. That's how market transactions work. You give people money and in return they furnish you with a product or service. There is a difference between entitlement and false entitlement. While release dates aren't binding contractually, I would expect a degree of good will from Obsidian in excess of "this is the bare minimum that we are contractually obliged to deliver." They set an expectation of a release date (no one made them) and now they are pushing it back. For good reason too, but, it would not be unreasonable to ask for -- not demand like you are implying-- but request a reward for our continued loyalty, patience and support. Especially considering that access to the backer beta would, effectively cost nothing: few people are going to opt in for beta access a month from release. A solution that costs nothing and gains good will is a good solution.

 

 

A tad to much entitlement here... seriously how are you entitled to a product you didn't pay for but others did, because a related product release date has been delayed, not cancelled, delayed. The mind boggles.

 

Moreover, at the time of backing no specific release date was given, so you can't even really complain that you wouldn't have backed otherwise. 

 

 

There was a specific date, it simply wasn't an exact date (although, one can always be more precise in measuring time, so exactness maybe is a fool's errand). Q1 2018. Which is being broken. More over that doesn't matter, because they more recently announced a specific date, 3 Apr 2018, which takes priority over any date announced at the outset. That's how release dates works: the most recently announced one takes priority.

 

So I think your point is moot.

[Ethics Gradient]

You might say that the backer beta backers might find this unfair. One could argue this, however, I do not think it is unfair. They still got to play the beta for months before us regular backers.

As a beta backer, I certainly wouldn't mind more players jumping into the bug hunt.  Maybe they can drop the beta price this final month.  The more, the merrier!

 

As it stands, the backer beta is basically just a party of random NPCs exploring about a dozen game maps spanning a few small islands.  It's a little disingenuous to say beta testers have been playing the game for "months".  All that is presently available to us is the bare-minimum amount of content to get a good idea how the new mechanics work.  Beginning-to-end, you can probably cruise through the entire plot-free beta in a couple hours.

 

Aside from getting a sneak-peek at the UI and a few other new features, the only tangible benefit to playing the beta is that when the release rolls out, we'll just spend a little less time in the character creation screen.

Edited March 14, 2018 by Ethics Gradient

[JerekKruger]

Is the "backer beta" a free standing product, open to consumption? That would be like calling the space pig a product.

 

It's a thing that I, and others, paid for, because we wanted it. I don't see how that's not a product.

 

Ultimately you're asking for something that you didn't pay for (presumably because you didn't think it was worth it), that others did, for free. On the basis alone I don't think you should get it.

 

If you really think the delay is bad enough you can ask for a refund on your backing of the game. It's a more complicated procedure than asking for a refund on a pre-order, but I know at least one person who's done it. Of course I doubt you'll do that since you aren't actually that bothered, you just want something for free.

[bleedthefreak]

I actually think making folks pay to get into the beta is smart, because it filters out people just looking to play it for free for no other reason than just to have played it a bit before launch. I think it was the Rock, Paper, Shotgun news report about the delay that mentioned the beta was being tested buy folks that bought into it, which indicated strongly the most hard core of fans were doing the outsourced testing. I think that's the way to keep going.

 

Besides, if someone really wanted their voice to be heard, they wouldn't really even need the beta to have an opinion - they can watch videos of the beta and post here or any number of other places any thoughts, suggestions, concerns, or questions they may have.

Edited March 14, 2018 by bleedthefreak

[Wormerine]

You know you can still get access to beta by dropping $20? I wouldn't recommend it, but if you want it that badly it is there.

As you mentioned space piglet, I think it is an interesting point to discuss. The point of space piglet and other unique to certain tiers items are to be unique for those who threw certain amount of money at the game during campaign. Giving those out to everyone is a certain betrayal of what those items represent - it is possible one was encouraged to pay more money during campaign just to gain access to those items. Now, I am personally against this kind of reward - in recent Phoenix Point crowdfunding I didn't go beyond lowest tier as I disliked "fig exclusive DLC sold there" - if I am putting more money, I want the product to get better, not to get more stuff to myself only. By the same logic, I really don't care if items I will get as a reward for backing will be made available to other players, or if beta will be opened. However, those were sold under such banner.

While, you might be happy to get access to beta for free, some other backers might feel ripped off. You pay extra money to have access to early build and be able to provide feedback, and suddenly people who didn't pay can do it as well. For every backer who will be happy they got a freeby, there will be upset backer who paid the money. Now as a developer, whom would you want to keep a good relations with? The one who pays more, or the one who doesn't?

But still it comes down to this: Obsidian doesn't owe you (or any of us) apologies. They are spending more time to make the game better, not failing in delivering the product.

 

There was a specific date, it simply wasn't an exact date (although, one can always be more precise in measuring time, so exactness maybe is a fool's errand). Q1 2018. Which is being broken. More over that doesn't matter, because they more recently announced a specific date, 3 Apr 2018, which takes priority over any date announced at the outset. That's how release dates works: the most recently announced one takes priority.

 

 

So I think your point is moot.

Q1 2018 was an estimated delivery day. No promise was broken, because no were made. Game got lots of funding beyond initial $1.1M - the fact they they are planning to release so close to original plan is impressive. It was announced it will be out in April. Now its May. Like you said: the most recently announced date take priority. 

[Clawdius_Talonious]

I'd like to see this done, schedules that may not be able to be easily amended at this point are likely in place for some, so given that the majority of systems for key distribution and the like are already in place I don't see any harm in the idea. Those who backed at higher tiers hopefully did so in order to have their feedback incorporated for the release of the game, and that won't be changed if more people are given access to the backer beta. If it was likely to require much in the way of work from people at Obsidian that might be better spent elsewhere, I might feel otherwise. Given the relatively short notice, it would be nice of Obsidian to do this.

 

That being said, Universim and most other Kickstarter projects that extended early access to all backers (at least, those that I've backed personally and thus followed) had already slipped well beyond the initial launch window when they decided to do so. Since that's not the case here, I really only think that it would be nice because of the nature of having announced an exact date for release. If the folks at Harebrained Schemes had said that Battletech (a game I anticipate very nearly as much as Pillars 2 mind you) had release delayed from April to May, it wouldn't have felt like as much of a loss as Pillars 2 going from April 3rd to May 8th, if that makes sense? Or even if it doesn't, how things 'feel' isn't always about logic. Pillars 2 slipped from Q1 to Q2, and despite it being 'just a month' and despite my having felt like the initial announcement of April 3rd was considerably sooner than I expected it to be, it seems like an expansion of access to the backer beta would be a nice way to make up for any inconvenience it may have caused without being too much work for the fine folks at Obsidian. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Clawdius_Talonious

[huang]

I would obviously play it if they gave me the beta, but I don't expect this to happen. Overall I hope they just focus on the game and forget the rest. It must be hell to bugfix a gigantic game like this. I hope for the best. :D

[Yosharian]

I don't like this 'shareholder' attitude.

[Tigranes]

Games, and a million other things in life, are delayed all the time, even with people in the industry often working 70 hour weeks in crunch time.

 

I don't really need to add more work on them. There's other things to do for a month. (And if there isn't, and I end up terribly bored, that sucks, but that's not on them.)

[JerekKruger]

Another question. If we grant for a moment that this delay entitles backers and preorderers to some sort of recompense*, what exactly do those of us who paid for the beta get? We're just as inconvenienced by the delay and we backed Deadfire $20 more but we get nothing?

 

*I don't believe this, but this is the argument being made.

Edited March 14, 2018 by JerekKruger

[VincentNZ]

I doubt that they would do that and it is not really something I would want them to put resources into, as, if we are honest, nobody is really inconvenienced by the delay and they never signed a contract to release it on April 3rd either.

 

However I do not think that beta backers would need to feel unfairly treated because they would have had more beta-time and updates than the guys that would get a couple of weeks.

 

In the end it is unneeded because Obisdian would not be able to put the telemetry gained into context for a release patch and the players would only try to satisfy their curiosity.

[Aramintai]

Ha, releasing the beta for everyone to get even more feedback about features and bugs? Then the game will be delayed indefinitely. I think devs shouldn't even release any new beta for backers and only focus on finally cementing all the features and bug fixing what they've got already.

 

As for giving away the beta for free, vexing backers who paid for it, just because the game got delayed? Get over yourselves. If you don't like the wait - get a refund.

[Karkarov]

The game got delayed, they don't owe any backers jack squat as a result.  The end.

What do they owe the backers?  To eventually release the game, in the best state they can possibly release it in, and to make sure it meets all the of disclosed campaign goals as humanly possible if not all of them period.  Nothing I have seen implies they aren't going to do that, so keep your knickers on.

[Dryden]

I just think they could/should have announced the delay a tad earlier, in respect to the fans that might take days off just to play at release. Not unreasonable. But the delay itself I'm fine with, of course. Release it when it's ready.

 

As for backer beta or bonus items, not necessary imo. Just squash dem bugz Obsidian.

[Messier-31]

Dear Obsidian, as compensation I'll have a... ummm... one physical copy... plushie space piglet (make that two)... oh, maybe a cloth map!

 

Best regards.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Messier-31

[SonicMage117]

"They owe us guys, they lied."

 

"Shut up. Troll!!"

 

I like the sound of both sides. I still think they may give backers a free special item if this thread gets popular enough. Wait... Who are we kidding, they probably won't see this thread to be honest. Don't mind my rambling...

[morhilane]

The only thing they owes me as a backer is at least one more backer update, instead of just the release one.

[Sedrefilos]

At least give us the alpha!

[Elkor_Alish]

I think a company should stand by their statements. If they make a deadline, I would like to think the integrity of their brand means enough to them they will move heaven and earth, shoulder any amount of billable hours, and make it happen. When I am not on ships, I am usually doing construction, and in these fields so many things are contingent upon one another that deadlines have to be met. Even when it means no days off and eighteen hour days of ***tty. ***king. Work. I also realize the world that reality reigned in has mostly moved on. Probably for the better, but I will miss it.

 

I don't care about additional swag. I don't want some sort of compensation. I just want them to know what they are talking about and deliver on their promises. Just be grown ups. Life is messy, things happen, they missed a deadline and its not really a big deal, but if the game is not solid when it ships. . .If it is some buggy, unplayable mess like say Deliverance: Kingdom Come (XBX1, I saw it on console first so that was where I bought it) I will be deeply disappointed.