Deadfire FAILING

[SonicMage117]

Mmmkay. Now I see that many beta testers on YouTube and such are hating on the Deadfire beta. I just hope this doesn't turn Deadfire into a messy flop. That would not be kind to the developers or myself.

 

See, in the newest video update, Obsidian says that they are taking fan's criticisms and the beta tester's feedback to improve the game. Question is, how will they know who lr what to improve when? The problem is that everyone's feedback has been either so split or so off-vision that it's troublesome and comfusing to know what goes where and how to do so in moderation and comtainment.

 

So if the game fails due to horrid balance or the like, I cannot blame the developers and publishers, but the community which manipulated the fail right out of the gate. I want this game to succeed, so please read and heed this entry.

 

 

 

Stay ever true and do what you do, Thank you Obsidian!

[Wormerine]

I wouldn’t worry too much about it. Obsidian must know what they are going for and they are seeing how people react and use what they already implimented. Data gathered from beta might be more useful than what we say.

 

They certainly shouldn’t blindly follow people requests 1:1. Some of the best “early access” developers were able to take a feedback and fix the problem in ways you wouldn’t expect. It’s up to us to express our feelings and thought on the game, and for guys in Obsidian to sift through it and decide what is constuctive feedback, what is a good idea, what asks for a different game all together and to identify what really is a problem.

[Quillon]

There are insignificant number of vids/viewers and admittedly I skimmed through most of the vids but I didn't particularly noticed any hate/negativity, wtf.

[MaxQuest]

Mmmkay. Now I see that many beta testers on YouTube and such are hating on the Deadfire beta.

I suppose that it's not that testers really hate the beta (if you saw any hate)... rather there could be subtle feeling of potential disappointment.

How to put it better... Look Deadfire has a bigger potential than PoE1, because:

- it is bigger (sequel adds many new features)

- devs are more experienced now, and are already familiar with many possible pitfalls

 

So it is natural to expect for Deadfire >> PoE1. And having such expectations is ok.

While the beta itself atm is: Beta << PoE1. Which results in that little bitterness. But is actually also ok, since Deadfire didn't come through a comparable number of iterations yet.

 

See, in the newest video update, Obsidian says that they are taking fan's criticisms and the beta tester's feedback to improve the game. Question is, how will they know who lr what to improve when? The problem is that everyone's feedback has been either so split or so off-vision that it's troublesome and comfusing to know what goes where and how to do so in moderation and comtainment.

Good question, and you are on point with the split feedback.

 

As I see it there are two general approaches to balancing:

#1. You create a detailed mathematical model from the very ground. You start with a set of axioms that list what you want to achieve and build a pyramid from bottom to top. It's balanced, it's stable on every stage of development. It maybe scallable, but you are limited that you can't change the grand blueprint.

#2. You have several nice ideas, that are cool but not necessary balanced or thought to their depths. You translate each into a corresponding system and throw it into the common cauldron. After that you try to figure out what's ok and what is requiring tuning. You test->estimate->tune->and repeat.

 

In his presentation here Josh is talking about iterative approach. So it's closer to #2. They test, estimate, compare their own conclusions with collected feedback and implement changes. With each iteration getting closer to an etalon state, just like getting closer to solution in bisection method.

 

Question is, how will they know who lr what to improve when?

Experience, vision and access to more info, really help in sorting the feedback, and estimate which one was off, which one was on point, which one was short-sighted (for example because the player didn't take X or Y in account).

 

I want this game to succeed, so please read and heed this entry.

We all do) Edited December 28, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Heijoushin]

You're on the ball lately with the click-baity titles mate  

 

Sure, there are a few issues where the community is split down the middle (such as the Might vs. Strength thing) but there are also some issues that we can agree upon (say, casters being weak at the moment) and we're providing valuable feedback in the form of bug testing. I'm such Obsidian will take what is useful and discard the rest. 

[Sedrefilos]

In modern US english, words like "hate" and "fail" are so misused to the point they're empty of their true meaning.

 

OP, for starters, since you're worried about the game and the devs, your thread title doesen't help much.

Second, yea, there is some concern and criticism about Deadfire's mechanics (though I never saw anyone hate it) and the "atmosphere" of us taking close look to the beta is a bit... hm... miserable? I would say or, at least, not that full of excitement.

But this, imo, happens because the beta is so focused on mechanics and mechanics seem to need some more work. There are a ton of other aspects of the game that are very promising to point that, if they're done correctly, this can be one of the greatest fantasy rpg experiences in gaming ever.

 

Beta for Pillars 1 had the same mood but, at the end, it worked pretty well and the devs are more experienced this time around and also, it seems, more confident.

 

So, with only one update thus far, it's premature to dub the beta as a failure. Because the true fail of the beta would be, after all, if the devs didn't get or neglected all the feedback. Having so many people playing it and care to stream, upload and give feedback shows quite the opposite I would say. It works pretty well up to now.

[Juodas Varnas]

Bloody hell man, are you, by any chance, a writer for Buzzfeed?

[Wormerine]

Frankly what is the point of praising it at that point? Point of the beta is to provide criticism, which even if done calmly will still sound negative.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Also, YouTube creators want views. And a video attacking Deadfire - or anything else, for that matter - will get more clicks and talk than one methodically picking apart the good and the bad. Any open beta is going to be a lot of garbled noise and part of the designers' job is to filter out the valuable feedback.

[Messier-31]

Please stop using words like "failing" before the initial release.

[Aramintai]

Looks like somebody didn't get a memo what early access beta really is and when is the release window.

[SonicMage117]

Frankly what is the point of praising it at that point? Point of the beta is to provide criticism, which even if done calmly will still sound negative.

When I cook my 6 inch weiner on a grill, I, like every other frank lover in America, praise it before it is finished. Sometimes, I find that the cook is always ruined if someone else takes over, oftten resulting in carcinogenic outflow in the end (a burnt frank is never a good day).

Also, YouTube creators want views. And a video attacking Deadfire - or anything else, for that matter - will get more clicks and talk than one methodically picking apart the good and the bad. Any open beta is going to be a lot of garbled noise and part of the designers' job is to filter out the valuable feedback.

Almost every video I've seen has some made sort of snide mockery towards Obsidian, some crusade/mission to point out the design flaws of both the beta and even the original Pillars (which is irrelevant) and replace the stat system/class system.

 

The last one I saw was hellbent on pointing out how the multi-class system is a failure and was a waste of resources and time, it was discouraging at best to watch such a thing uploaded to my favorite app, and what more, it was on my recommended videos. "Tis a mess of a system lads, look here, have a laugh... e'ryone is going to play as a single class chatacter for reason A to B" Blah blah tada and so forthism.

 

Undermind that I don't see it as constructive criticism, I just see it as people unhappy with the flow of the current product and a way to manipulate the developers into doing their bidding. I don't see any excitement or hype here or on YouTube unfortunately, so far, see all the excitement and hype on the Dungeons & Dragons groups on facebook.

 

Said no pebble unturned, if it were up to me, I'd say for devs to reach their initial vision without the squandering and impure peach juices of the community, whether it be here or anywhere else.. that way, when they fail hard, it will be on them. Either way, I'm very excited whether the game is poor or not. One thing that any backed game has proven is that the taint of a community is never a good thing

 

Hopefully Obsidian's hand is not forced out of the entitlement of the people's voice but the forever grateful vision which is pure and if you will, free spirit. Better a free spirit of the land, than a tamed one by the people who bought it.

Edited December 28, 2017 by SonicMage117

[MaxQuest]

When I cook my 6 inch weiner on a grill[...]

Are you sure that's a good example?

 

The last one I saw was hellbent on pointing out how the multi-class system is a failure and was a waste of resources and time

I am interested in the arguments presented in that video. Can you share the link?

 

"e'ryone is going to play as a single class chatacter for reason A to B" Blah blah tada and so forthism.

This does not reflect the current state of the things. Not to mention that youtuber is speaking in absolutes.

 

I'd say for devs to reach their initial vision without the squandering and impure peach juices of the community, whether it be here or anywhere else.. that way, when they fail hard, it will be on them. Either way, I'm very excited whether the game is poor or not. One thing that any backed game has proven is that the taint of a community is never a good thing

Hmm, it sounds a bit black & white:

- community feedback being impure

- and devs initial vision being pure

 

If Obsidian is adamant about any system/change they implement, they would not need our feedback, nor this beta thing.

It would be obvious that they would like to not "taint" the upcoming masterpiece, and just present it when it's completely ready.

 

Hopefully Obsidian's hand is not forced out of the entitlement of the people's voice but the forever grateful vision which is pure and if you will, free spirit. Better a free spirit of the land, than a tamed one by the people who bought it.

Forced?

[Wormerine]

Of course, it is a mess of a system right now. It is not ready. Purpose of the beta is for bunch of people get their dirty hands on it and break it. In the last stream Josh openly admited they are undertuning many things as they have learned people react badly to nerfs so they prefer to keep things down and tune it up rather than having to tune things down. They best understand how far it is from final product. Negative feedback can be demotivating, but those are professionals and hopefully can work past it.

I didn't see any of those videos. If someone does actual analysis I would be grateful for a link. Playthrough with snarky commentary is not really something I care much about as I can make my own with access to beta. 

[rjshae]

Mmm... sweet delicious click bait titles.

[SonicMage117]

You are free to mock me of my confession on the guilty pleasure grill and the title but I ask that you nor anyone mock Obsidian of their hard excrutiating work for that hurt me as an individual. Also, keep in mind that Frank and Beans are an everyday essential for me, it's something I take very serious - just as the development of this game. I have made it an unsworn mission to bring about attentive alert that this is all happening, and sadly, it's very real. As everyone seems to agree thst the beta is a mess or of dissapointment. I understand nobody likes hearing what needs to be said, especially if it labels the community for such a problem in the future.

 

I can try to locate the video, not sure if I will be successful. I'm likely going to rage before finding it, I admit, as it's no longer in my recommendations. When it comes to taint of an/the untaint, I tend to deal with this in absolutes. As my Grandmother in El Paso would say "One bad bean spoils the bunch." And right she was. For the pride of preparation cannot be interjected with the fallacies of the unknown or random foreign design which is why I classify thus as impure (including myself if I would to be harm the development of Deadfire in any way).

 

And yes, forced, just like the whole SJW with the first game. I can just see the tide cycle emerge again, when people play the game and get angry with something and demanding sweet retribution.... or else!

https://youtu.be/LGQgjBSE2xA

 

The community has always had a wanting to force developers to redirect their vision to their needs in an excuse to "better the game for all gamers" most of the time, this never works as it ultimately ruins the game if developers give in to drastically changing somethimg such as fully replacing combat systems and so on. I would love to say that I am wrong but....

 

I love Frank and Beans.

Edited December 28, 2017 by SonicMage117

[algroth]

*fart*

[Quillon]

As everyone seems to agree thst the beta is a mess or of dissapointment. 

 

Most everyone hates or rather dislikes very specific parts(which aren't the same for everyone) of the beta and its their chance to give feedback now, when its more easier to change stuff in the game for the devs so ofc people will give more feedback on what they want changed. You're just escalating things to whole another 567890 levels.

[Ninjamestari]

If the devs lack the determination to see their own vision through despite what a few fans say, then that is their failing. No one can 'manipulate' them into making bad decisions, every single decision is ultimately on Obsidian, not the fans. It's simply unprofessional to let fans dictate the course of the product; feedback can be useful, but ultimately the fans usually don't have the vision needed to understand the kinds of changes the game needs. I'm not worried, not much anyway. I'm not in the beta, but what I've heard pretty much indicates that Deadfire at least won't be worse than the first game, which at this point is good enough for me. The Stat change and the multiclassing change are pretty much what I wanted to see most, so unless the content somehow manages to sucks ass, I really don't see how this could be a failure.

 

If the sales suck, then that is probably the result of the underwhelming experience of the first game that left many people disappointed. So many people haven't even completed the campaign.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[MortyTheGobbo]

As useful as an open beta can be, it runs into the problem of most people having no idea how beta or playtesting actually work.

[Wormerine]

 

As everyone seems to agree thst the beta is a mess or of dissapointment. 

 

Most everyone hates or rather dislikes very specific parts(which aren't the same for everyone) of the beta and its their chance to give feedback now, when its more easier to change stuff in the game for the devs so ofc people will give more feedback on what they want changed. You're just escalating things to whole another 567890 levels.

There is a reason why broadly described "artists" are archetypically known for "you can't see it - IT'S NOT FINISHED!" behaviour. It is difficult for anyone not deeply involved in process of production to assess quality of an unfinished product. That is why AAAs feed general audience with prerendered cutscenes and faked demos, with early builds being shown behind closed doors to (hopefully) more educated journalists. It is second time Obsidian does this open development thing, and they must know what they are dealing with. As far as current supposed negative reception is concerned it is really unimportant. When the game will come out the word of mouth and positive reviews will have much more of a sway than some early beta video made by unknown youtuber. 

 

Of course, everyone wants to influence game to better fit their taste. That's the appeal of early backer beta. 

[Crille]

It's more for catching things that they could have missed, or haven't thought of doing.

 

Beta and the like always get **** for things that the beta is actually there to catch.

[Karkarov]

I wouldn't read too much into it, this "beta" has been almost point for point identical to the Eternity 1 beta.  Obsidian likes to release things in beta intentionally overturned just to get a reaction, see where it needs to go, etc. 

I remember at one point in Eternity 1 beta they released this patch and everyone complained about something with the melee, maybe the swing time changed or everyone was glancing don't recall.  After a weak of whine festa of the year one of the devs admitted on the forum the beta was like 3-4 versions behind the current build and they were using the beta reactions to see if the changes they had already made address what players were complaining about.

Just saying.  It's a beta, put no stock in it, and ignore the blowhards who live on steam that think beta = full retail product.  Sorry this isn't an "early access" game that is just never getting more development, it is an actual beta.

[Aramintai]

Just saying.  It's a beta, put no stock in it, and ignore the blowhards who live on steam that think beta = full retail product.  Sorry this isn't an "early access" game that is just never getting more development, it is an actual beta.

Well, from my experience with many betas, some things that are not easily tweakable are 99% gonna be in retail product. Those are usually big things involving graphics and animation - if they look like **** in the beta, don't expect any magical improvements on them in retail product, **** is what you gonna get. POE2 beta looks very good in that regard, so I'm not worried.

[thelee]

As useful as an open beta can be, it runs into the problem of most people having no idea how beta or playtesting actually work.

 

True this.

 

Companies like Google, or even Blizzard, do betas for products that are essentially already finished and they just want to generate some hype or lower some expectations while they finish polish. Whereas the backer beta is super beta. Case in point - I haven't had a single stable playthrough, too many crashes and problems.

 

When I did the backer beta for PoE1 I got really bummed out, because it seemed so rough that I thought my hopes were going to be dashed and I wasted my kickstarting money. I stopped playing the backer beta and being involved after a couple weeks or so. Flash forward to release and several major patches and DLC later, and I've clocked 900+ hours on steam for PoE, done all the achievements, written up a detailed guide, and I personally consider it the closest a party RPG has gotten to my platonic ideal of what a party-based RPG should be.

 

This time around I have more realistic expectations for the backer beta, so I'm not so concerned. It will be janky, the mechanics will be rough, but now I'm a lot more aware that that's what a beta is. We're not supposed to be even close to a polished game yet. Even PoE 1.0 was worlds different from what 1.05 or what 2.0 or 3.0 ended up being. We're just trying to help lay down the basic foundation for what will likely be a very a good game (and even amidst all the instability and jank there's a lot of promising stuff).