Gromnir Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 (edited) the guy on the project who don't read fiction and actual prefers Tolkien's silmarillion to hobbit and lotr is the narrative lead? I enjoyed Pillar's narrative well enough. then send eric a thank you card. our recollection is eric fenstermaker were lead narrative designer for poe. http://www.mobygames.com/game/pillars-of-eternity josh were the guy behind story of honest hearts and iwd2. josh likes lore. he has a history background. the stuff he enjoys tends to read like history texts. if such is what you want from deadfire, then am suspecting you will be happy. HA! Good Fun! ps we got no problem with josh handling game mechanics or even being lead designer. mr. sawyer appears to have organizational skills and nobody questions his knowledge o' rpg rule systems. even so, am wanting josh as little involved in story as possible. am tending to find his characterization flat and lifeless, and his previous narrative leads were not 'mongst our favorite bis/black isle offerings. there is exceptions. had a swim coach, a guy named sherm chavoor. he coached numerous Olympians, but he didn't actual know how to swim. almost drown once when he got knocked into a pool during a post meet celebration. perhaps somebody like josh, with little appreciation o' fiction and marginal talent for such, could still organize a successful narrative team. crpg writing is an oddity given the collaborative nature. maybe josh could be some kinda narrative genius who simple cannot appreciate narrative or write narrative himself? wouldn't bet money on it. Edited September 12, 2017 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
JerekKruger Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 then send eric a thank you card. our recollection is eric fenstermaker were lead narrative designer for poe. Huh, the question on Josh's Tumblr suggested he was narrative lead for Pillars. Obviously the questioner was mistaken.
CottonWolf Posted September 12, 2017 Posted September 12, 2017 then send eric a thank you card. our recollection is eric fenstermaker were lead narrative designer for poe. Huh, the question on Josh's Tumblr suggested he was narrative lead for Pillars. Obviously the questioner was mistaken. Yeah. Josh's narrative lead for Deadfire. He wasn't for Pillars.
Gromnir Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 as we are talking narritive lead for deadfire, am hopeful josh has a plan for handling theme in deadfire. pillars were intended to have multiple themes, but it didn't actual work out the way intended. religious faith and belief absent o' gods were kinda twin themes for poe. unfortunate, poe handled animancy poorly and when you get right down to it, the differences 'tween the two themes is meaningful in large part by revealing their similarities. like it or not, is all faith. aside: this is where we will again recommend josh reading lord of light, ilium/olympos and might as well add contact by carl sagan. regardless, were only after the fact the developers seemed to realize what were obvious to some o' us months/years before poe release regarding the all too predictable animancy problem. in a world where science/animancy is the cause o' uncountable number o' soulless children and hordes o' rampaging undead, animancy as the poster child for technology and as a substitute for religious faith is gonna be a hard sell. 'course the real world player is already gonna be aware o' benefits o' emergent technologies in a way no being in the pillars world possible could be, so is kinda a cheat, but even so, animacy as the surrogate were poorly handled. one concern we got is the developers is seeing animancy as salvageable. is nothing wrong with using animancy as illustrative o' the nightmarish dangers o' tech gone too far, but you ain't never gonna get a chance to erase the past. sunk cost fallacy. am suspecting the developers saw how poor they handled 1/2 o' their thematic goals, but such ain't gonna be fixed in deadfire, particular with animancy. is nothing wrong with developing animancy in deadfire. such is needed as it were handled poorly in poe, but is a mistake to try and fix themes by fixing animancy. embrace what you did in poe. live and learn. you can kill monsters, but they cannot be unmade, so do not waste additional resources on an animancy reclamation effort which is doomed. give us more nightmares rather than trying to balance with candyland utopian fantasies possible through animancy. unshackle animancy and release horrors beautiful, terrible and profound. don't turn back from what you started. 'course is too late in development to reverse course. we had some hope the developers would realize the error o' redeeming animancy, but luminous adra as a resource for animancy being worked into plot drops for deadfire makes us suspicious. pilot through the storm may now be the only option... and perhaps josh has a plan other than lore dumps and history lessons. will need wait and see. HA! Good Fun! 4 "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
AndreaColombo Posted September 13, 2017 Author Posted September 13, 2017 https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/907709328211165184 1 "Time is not your enemy. Forever is." — Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment "It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers." — Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus
CottonWolf Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 Those tooltips are decidedly not kosher. one concern we got is the developers is seeing animancy as salvageable. is nothing wrong with using animancy as illustrative o' the nightmarish dangers o' tech gone too far, but you ain't never gonna get a chance to erase the past. sunk cost fallacy. am suspecting the developers saw how poor they handled 1/2 o' their thematic goals, but such ain't gonna be fixed in deadfire, particular with animancy. is nothing wrong with developing animancy in deadfire. such is needed as it were handled poorly in poe, but is a mistake to try and fix themes by fixing animancy. embrace what you did in poe. live and learn. you can kill monsters, but they cannot be unmade, so do not waste additional resources on an animancy reclamation effort which is doomed. give us more nightmares rather than trying to balance with candyland utopian fantasies possible through animancy. unshackle animancy and release horrors beautiful, terrible and profound. don't turn back from what you started. 'course is too late in development to reverse course. we had some hope the developers would realize the error o' redeeming animancy, but luminous adra as a resource for animancy being worked into plot drops for deadfire makes us suspicious. pilot through the storm may now be the only option... and perhaps josh has a plan other than lore dumps and history lessons. will need wait and see. It's a tricky one. I think everyone agrees they messed it up in Pillars. But outright declaring the only real technological marvels in the setting de facto evil is probably not a good solution either. I mean, the animancers are already on the side of the people hellbent on exploiting the locals for their resources. Making them then do terrible things with the adra's verging on making the animancers cacklingly evil. 2
Lord_Mord Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) the stuff he enjoys tends to read like history texts. if such is what you want from deadfire, then am suspecting you will be happy. Yes, please! you can kill monsters, but they cannot be unmade, so do not waste additional resources on an animancy reclamation effort which is doomed. give us more nightmares rather than trying to balance with candyland utopian fantasies possible through animancy. unshackle animancy and release horrors beautiful, terrible and profound. don't turn back from what you started. That too. Making them then do terrible things with the adra's verging on making the animancers cacklingly evil. Maybe most of those guys are evil? That does not have to mean animancy is inherently evil. Just that most animancers are. Like the pharma industry or economists. It is just realistic. That certain sciences could be used for good purposes does not mean that most people will do so. Exploring such ideas seems to be more interesting then rehabilitating a fictional science field. Edited September 13, 2017 by Lord_Mord --- We're all doomed
JerekKruger Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 in a world where science/animancy is the cause o' uncountable number o' soulless children A minor point but I am fairly sure that Waidwen's Legacy is the cause of uncountably many soulless children, not (modern) animancy. Admittedly Waidwen's Legacy is itself caused by ancient animantic techniques, but since the vast majority of people aren't aware of this and these techniques are distinct from the modern animantic tradition I don't think you can really lump them together (certainly the people of the Dyrwood don't). That said I agree that animancy was badly handled. There was exposition where the benefits of animancy were extolled, but pretty much everything we actually saw of animancy was, at best, highly unethical science. I'm not sure I agree that it's unsalvageable, though perhaps the only way to do so would be to have in game recognition of the problems, for example a new organisation of animancers forming who specifically acknowledge the problems with animancy and make it their aim to "do it right". 1
Wormerine Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 The question we have been waiting for. So Josh, are you bad at your job? https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165266327406/hey-josh-do-you-think-you-wearing-too-many-hats If Josh being bad at his job gave us Pillars I can only hope he gets worse the guy on the project who don't read fiction and actual prefers Tolkien's silmarillion to hobbit and lotr is the narrative lead? ... am surprised they ain't found the one guy in the building who thinks music other than polka is lame and made him music director. HA! Good Fun! Well... Silmarillion is a better work in some ways. It's not nearly as digestible as hobbit or lots, but it better represent what Tolkien was striving to do - creating fictional world with its history, culture, language, which would feel authentic. It was more of a linguistic exproment than a novel. Considering Josh's interest in linguistics he probably finds much more do dig into in Silmarillion, than in LotR.
MaxQuest Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) It depends on whether the explosion does a determined amount of damage or acts as an insta-kill, I guess?Personally I would like to see the damage dealt in any case, as it helps me to estimate how good are my effective defenses at a glance. https://twitter.com/WorldofEternity/status/907668599703191552 Ehh. That's sad. On the other hand, if the new update includes also detailed info on subclasses abilities/passives/trade-offs, and also some formulas behind damage/duration/projectiles_count coefficient in relation to power_level... I can live with that) The question we have been waiting for. So Josh, are you bad at your job? https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165266327406/hey-josh-do-you-think-you-wearing-too-many-hats Tbh I liked what Josh did with PoE1 and NWN2... Although regarding NWN2, some balancing wouldn't hurt as some prestige classes are clearly not as useful as the others (especially from power-building perspective) plus the mechanics behind AB cap and stacking are not transparent enough. https://twitter.com/jesawyer/status/907709328211165184That's interesting. Pork is a food item, and since it provides a flat +0.15 damage coefficient it will stack with any +MIG stuff you can have. I hope there will be DoTs in Deadfire... Edited September 13, 2017 by MaxQuest PoE1 useful stuff: attack speed calculator, unofficial patch mod, attack speed mechanics, dot mechanics, modals exclusivity rules PoE2 useful stuff: community patch, attack speed mechanics, enemy AR and defenses
Gromnir Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 The question we have been waiting for. So Josh, are you bad at your job? https://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/165266327406/hey-josh-do-you-think-you-wearing-too-many-hats If Josh being bad at his job gave us Pillars I can only hope he gets worse the guy on the project who don't read fiction and actual prefers Tolkien's silmarillion to hobbit and lotr is the narrative lead? ... am surprised they ain't found the one guy in the building who thinks music other than polka is lame and made him music director. HA! Good Fun! Well... Silmarillion is a better work in some ways. It's not nearly as digestible as hobbit or lots, but it better represent what Tolkien was striving to do - creating fictional world with its history, culture, language, which would feel authentic. It was more of a linguistic exproment than a novel. Considering Josh's interest in linguistics he probably finds much more do dig into in Silmarillion, than in LotR. which would be fine but we are speaking in the context o' the deadfire development, wherein the narrative is gonna take place, in large part, through character development, including advancing o' the watcher's personal story, which is gonna require a heavy dose o' dialogue to be communicated. if the deadfire narrative were achieved through lore dumps and reading in-game books detailing the histories o' the realms, then josh's preference for the silmarillion would be other than a handicap. not much compelling dialogue in the silmarillion, eh? is not as if the silmarillion is intrinsic bad, at least no more than is polka music. unfortunately, tolkien's work, unpublished during his lifetime, is not the best example o' what the deadfire writers is gonna try and achieve. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Valmy Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 I actually like the fact that Josh prefers non-fiction. I think it helps with his world building. I mean it is not like he is the only developer on these games, everybody brings something different to the table. 1
Varana Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 And PoE, in many aspects, shows that. That doesn't diminish the concern one might have that it may be not the ideal approach to writing characters, their development, and dialogue. That world-building may profit from it, doesn't invalidate Gromnir's point. Now, he says that a lot of narrative design is handled by Carrie Patel, so that's probably a good thing. --- As far as I can remember, Waidwen's Legacy was also a local issue in the Dyrwood, and we're in a totally different part of the world with Deadfire. The PR issues that animancy should have in the Dyrwood would probably at least be mitigated by distance and hearsay. We usually care a lot less about a crisis that's happening to people in faraway lands. Therefore I have sailed the seas and come To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats Χριστός ἀνέστη!
smjjames Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) Seems like the second part of your reply was meant for the Ydwin thread? Though it's being discussed in both places. Edited September 13, 2017 by smjjames
Lord_Mord Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 which would be fine but we are speaking in the context o' the deadfire development, wherein the narrative is gonna take place, in large part, through character development, including advancing o' the watcher's personal story, which is gonna require a heavy dose o' dialogue to be communicated. if the deadfire narrative were achieved through lore dumps and reading in-game books detailing the histories o' the realms, then josh's preference for the silmarillion would be other than a handicap. not much compelling dialogue in the silmarillion, eh? is not as if the silmarillion is intrinsic bad, at least no more than is polka music. unfortunately, tolkien's work, unpublished during his lifetime, is not the best example o' what the deadfire writers is gonna try and achieve. HA! Good Fun! Pallegina was in no way worse than the other characters. So what's the problem? --- We're all doomed
Gromnir Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) which would be fine but we are speaking in the context o' the deadfire development, wherein the narrative is gonna take place, in large part, through character development, including advancing o' the watcher's personal story, which is gonna require a heavy dose o' dialogue to be communicated. if the deadfire narrative were achieved through lore dumps and reading in-game books detailing the histories o' the realms, then josh's preference for the silmarillion would be other than a handicap. not much compelling dialogue in the silmarillion, eh? is not as if the silmarillion is intrinsic bad, at least no more than is polka music. unfortunately, tolkien's work, unpublished during his lifetime, is not the best example o' what the deadfire writers is gonna try and achieve. HA! Good Fun! Pallegina was in no way worse than the other characters. So what's the problem? if you say so. go and review the numerous favorite companion threads for poe. josh's contribution were not near top o' the list. yeah, pallegina weren't at the top o' the most hated companion threads neither, but sadly all such reveals were nobody cared 'nuff bout pallegina to like or hate her. she were flat and monotonous. josh has been writing variations o' yxunomei for many years. motivations is different, but characters is spooky similar... with the possible exception o' bishop, who weren't developed near enough for us to genuine applaud or condemn. HA! Good Fun! ps so is clear, Gromnir believes josh is an excellent game developer/designer. mr. sawyer is knowledgeable 'bout rule systems and game mechanics. am appreciating how josh is not one o' the grognards who believes in fixed proper and essential elements o' game design, but is more interested in providing the player with an entertaining and enjoyable experience. am even ok with josh fixation with lore. such ocd 'bout details o' the history o' a setting may add depth to a game. in general, he gets it. even so, while am appreciative o' josh contributions to games, am (and will continue to be) critical o' his writing efforts. would be more shocking (implausible so) if josh were great at every aspect o' game design. not much o' a criticism to note his talents do not extend to writing. Edited September 13, 2017 by Gromnir "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
Dopsim Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) yeah, pallegina weren't at the top o' the most hated companion threads neither, but sadly all such reveals were nobody cared 'nuff bout pallegina to like or hate her. she were flat and monotonous. Well i really like her. Her voice, lines, character... Great, really. Her line then you meet the Kraken is probably my favorite in the entire game in term of epicness But then again i really hated Grieving Mother so i am probably not representative of the most players. Still weird to hear Pallegina was bad or boring. She probably in my top 3 favorites. Edited September 13, 2017 by Dopsim
Wormerine Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 yeah, pallegina weren't at the top o' the most hated companion threads neither, but sadly all such reveals were nobody cared 'nuff bout pallegina to like or hate her. she were flat and monotonous. Well i really like her. Her voice, lines, character... Great, really. Her line then you meet the Kraken is probably my favorite in the entire game in term of epicness But then again i really hated Grieving Mother so i am probably not representative of the most players. Still weird to hear Pallegina was bad or boring. She probably in my top 3 favorites. When all said and done, she is not in my top 5ve, but she was the first character I got attatched to. Her dilemma was more relatable and immediate than most of the companions. I love her confrontation with Hylea. Certainly PoE had an issue with short term storytelling. Individual "setpieces" were rarely engaging. While it is something, which hopefully will be improved in Deadfire it seems more like a time constraint than anything else. Good story should always start with a clear end goal and the "big picture" of PoE was phenomenal. It just lacked polish to make the smaller encounters really shine. 3
algroth Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 I reckon she'd scrape into my Pillars top 5 following Sagani, Hiravias, Edér and (yes) Durance (because I don't believe a character has to be likable to be compelling). As with Wormerine I found her relatable, I enjoyed her points of view as well as the theme to her quest, and I did love her confrontation with Hylea as well. Overall I can safely say I liked her, as I did most characters in the game really. 1 My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/alephg Currently playing: Roadwarden
Gromnir Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 there were only 8 poe joinable companions, so... HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
algroth Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 there were only 8 poe joinable companions, so... HA! Good Fun! Well, yeah, in general I felt very positively about the companion roster so her being middle-of-the-pack is still fine by me. I was also considering the White March companions in my list, mind. My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/alephg Currently playing: Roadwarden
draego Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) there were only 8 poe joinable companions, so... HA! Good Fun! Well, yeah, in general I felt very positively about the companion roster so her being middle-of-the-pack is still fine by me. I was also considering the White March companions in my list, mind. Ye there are 11 companions so i get you. Edited September 13, 2017 by draego 1
Gromnir Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 not sure if folks is attempting humor or not. smiley faces n' such makes ambiguous. the expansion companions clear got less development resources and were less integrated into the main plot line(s). hardly seems fair to place all joinable npcs in the same pool when comparing quality. folks is padding numbers with tacked on expansion companions simple to make a point? or perhaps is sarcasm. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)
algroth Posted September 13, 2017 Posted September 13, 2017 (edited) not sure if folks is attempting humor or not. smiley faces n' such makes ambiguous. the expansion companions clear got less development resources and were less integrated into the main plot line(s). hardly seems fair to place all joinable npcs in the same pool when comparing quality. folks is padding numbers with tacked on expansion companions simple to make a point? or perhaps is sarcasm. HA! Good Fun! You're putting way too much attention on an element that is pretty irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether we include or leave out the expansions' companions, or whether Pallegina falls in our top 5 of 8 or not. Personally what I meant with it was that I liked her, and generally liked the companions in Pillars. I guess it's Wormerine's top 5 remark that prompted me to respond with my own. There's not much more to it. Edited September 13, 2017 by algroth My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/alephg Currently playing: Roadwarden
Recommended Posts