Politics 2017 part V

[Gfted1]

so, squandering billions of dollars on an ineffectual wall is ok?  unforgiving terrain, rivers and private property make a secure border near impossible, but we could understand wanting such a thing if tijuana were lobbing rockets into san diego and mexican suicide bombers were sneaking 'cross the unfenced portions o' the border. such ain't the case.  

 

the majority o' drugs will continue to make their way into the US via trucks/planes. large numbers o' illegal aliens will make their way into the country via similar transportation.  as such, building a largely symbolic multi-billion dollar wall strikes us as, y'know, squandering.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps keep in mind we ain't one o' those granola-munching californians who see any kinda immigration reform as evil.  a teary-eyed Gromnir, wringing his hands, "why can't we help those poor people instead of deporting them?" nope.  never gonna happen.  we got little sympathy for many illegals who is placing great burdens on our health and education systems. build bridges, not walls. bah.  even so, our recognition o' needed immigration reform don't blind us to the silliness and expense o' the wall.

I never addressed immigration reform, Im for full unrestricted immigration. I was specifically addressing Hurlshot's statement of; "I mean, personally I'd rather see us effectively treating people that are clearly societal problems, whether it is mental illness, substance abuse, etc. But I suppose that is a silly use of resources."

 

For me, I don't see any value in (or even how to accomplish) dealing with other countries societal problems. Not our job.

[Gfted1]

According to Trump, 1 million people cross that border legally every day. We do half a trillion dollars worth of business with Mexico. The wall is certainly not going to work, at least not against the type of person that has been deported 15 times. I'd rather us work with Mexico to treat societal problems. Maybe that is just as fantastical as the idea that a wall will solve our problems, but at least it has the chance of benefiting our own society, and is likely a fraction of the cost.

/not sure if serious...

 

Iyo, the lifetime costs to dealing with Mexico's "societal problems", the very same problems that Mexico itself cant fix, would be less than the one time cost of a wall?

[ShadySands]

Let's just conquer Mexico so my flights to Cancun can be domestic

[Guard Dog]

Well, that 700' wall of ice didn't keep the wildlings out of Westeros. Just sayin'

 

I say we legalize the drugs and shut down the free government goodies and that problem solves itself for the most part.

 

But as any s--t throwing monkey from either tribe would agree its better to be seen doing something that actually solving a problem. A wall is a waste of money but it is a tangible thing they can point to and tell the voters "we did this ooo-ooo-ahh-ahh". The US is in debt to the tune of $117T give or take right? Not like they have a lot of respect for the taxpayers hard earned or any regard for squandering it.

[Gromnir]

 I was specifically addressing Hurlshot's statement of; "I mean, personally I'd rather see us effectively treating people that are clearly societal problems, whether it is mental illness, substance abuse, etc. But I suppose that is a silly use of resources."

 

 

and Gromnir were addressing your preference for a wall.  while politically we don't see investing in mexican infrastructure as a sound strategy for dealing with illegal immigration, it does make more sense than a wall.  mexican illegal immigration has actual decreased in recent years and the decrease coincided with improvements in the mexican economy.  help strengthen mexico as a trading partner is a win-win, but political untenable as a solution to illegal immigration.  is particular a problem as the current majority o' illegals coming 'cross the border ain't even mexican but is from other parts o' central/south america.

 

invest in all of central america would be impractical and political suicide, but in terms o' roi, it makes more sense.  create stronger trading partners while decreasing illegal immigration makes sense.  ain't practical.

 

wall is symbolic.  folks is tired o' doing nothing, so they need do something.  wall won't stop folks on expired visas.  won't stop considerable boats.  won't stop trucks or planes. won't be as uncrossable as claimed as is simple too much terrain, and the country is too rough.  is water issues.  is private owned real property issues.  wall is too expensive for a largely symbolic gesture.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited May 11, 2017 by Gromnir

[Hurlshort]

 

According to Trump, 1 million people cross that border legally every day. We do half a trillion dollars worth of business with Mexico. The wall is certainly not going to work, at least not against the type of person that has been deported 15 times. I'd rather us work with Mexico to treat societal problems. Maybe that is just as fantastical as the idea that a wall will solve our problems, but at least it has the chance of benefiting our own society, and is likely a fraction of the cost.

/not sure if serious...

 

Iyo, the lifetime costs to dealing with Mexico's "societal problems", the very same problems that Mexico itself cant fix, would be less than the one time cost of a wall?

 

 

I wasn't talking about dealing with all of Mexico's societal problems, I was talking about a very specific case where we had a guy in custody 15 times and we failed to treat him in any way (that I know of). We just keep tossing him back over the border, despite the clear evidence that it was not working. The end result was he ended up injuring a child in a tragic car accident. WoD blamed the lack of a strong border wall for this. I consider that to be fairly far down the list of problems with the situation.

 

In the end I would rather see money spent on improving our treatment for mental illness, substance abuse, etc. than a wall. These two things may not seem related, but I'm not the one that keeps citing stories where repeat offenders do something terrible as a reason to build a wall.

[Gfted1]

I don't actually have a preference for a wall, I was just making a binary choice between "wall vs bottomless hole of societal problem fixing".

I did almost blow a snot bubble snorting to the fact that, somehow, someway, it has already been determined that Trump’s Wall Threatens Thousands of Plant and Animal Species on the U.S.–Mexico Border. Wont someone think of the "SEVEN THOUSAND SPECIES" that may possibly be affected.

[Gfted1]

I wasn't talking about dealing with all of Mexico's societal problems, I was talking about a very specific case where we had a guy in custody 15 times and we failed to treat him in any way (that I know of). We just keep tossing him back over the border, despite the clear evidence that it was not working. The end result was he ended up injuring a child in a tragic car accident. WoD blamed the lack of a strong border wall for this. I consider that to be fairly far down the list of problems with the situation.

 

In the end I would rather see money spent on improving our treatment for mental illness, substance abuse, etc. than a wall. These two things may not seem related, but I'm not the one that keeps citing stories where repeat offenders do something terrible as a reason to build a wall.

Ah, were dealing in "concepts". Now that's something I can get on board with. In my perfect conceptual country there's no: hunger, poverty, or crime and everyone accepts everyone elses racial, sexual and gender differences. Free medical, dental, vision and psychological services for all. Just imagine all our physical and mental needs are catered to, probably by robots, while humans spend their time thinking of stuff.

[Malcador]

Eventually you'll try prevention

[Chilloutman]

Eventually you'll try prevention

 

for few seconds I was confused as I read it as perversion...

[Hurlshort]

Well it isn't entirely conceptual, treatment has long been considered less expensive than incarceration. This guy that was deported 15 times is now going to be incarcerated in the US, most likely, because of the severity of the crime. I'm not saying treatment is always going to work, but it seems like we can put more resources into it, at the least.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Hurlshot

[Gfted1]

Well it isn't entirely conceptual, treatment has long been considered less expensive than incarceration. This guy that was deported 15 times is now going to be incarcerated in the US, most likely, because of the severity of the crime. I'm not saying treatment is always going to work, but it seems like we can put more resources into it, at the least.

I wonder, what if a "wall" had kept him out even one time, would it have had a butterfly effect where the entire time flow is slightly changed, thus making his accident with this family avoidable? Follow up question, if I look over a wall and see an illegal immigrant, did I just create them by seeing them?

[Hurlshort]

If you look over the wall to see them, they are neither illegal nor an immigrant.  

[Volourn]

Why do Mexicans hate Mexico so much? This wouldn't be an issue otherwise/. i mean we don't see  abunch of Amerikans rushing into Kanada illegally because they hate their country so much. Not even anti Trump liberals. LMAO

Edited May 11, 2017 by Volourn

[Wrath of Dagon]

I remember Iran Contra pretty well. I believe that was the birthplace of the expressions "what did you know and when did you now it" and "it's not the weight of the evidence but the seriousness of the charge that matters"

"What did the President know and when did he know it" is what James Howard Baker said during the Watergate hearings. (edited the name)

 

 

Well it isn't entirely conceptual, treatment has long been considered less expensive than incarceration. This guy that was deported 15 times is now going to be incarcerated in the US, most likely, because of the severity of the crime. I'm not saying treatment is always going to work, but it seems like we can put more resources into it, at the least.

You're living in a fantasy world. You can't "cure" someone from being a criminal. You have to incarcerate/deport/execute them. As far as wall being symbolic, tell it to the Israelis, a wall on the Egyptian border cut illegal immigration to virtually nothing. And even in our own case, border crossings are down 70% once we gave the impression that laws are actually being enforced again.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Wrath of Dagon

[Gromnir]

I don't actually have a preference for a wall, I was just making a binary choice between "wall vs bottomless hole of societal problem fixing".

 

 

if is binary choice, then might need recharacterize as wall is a similar dollar sink given projected long term maintenance and patrol costs.  

 

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/usa/

 

with mexico being one o' the two most common destinations for US goods, helping to create a strong mexican economy has obvious benefits beyond decrease in illegal immigration.  is folks who would argue investing in post war japan were a mistake, but such voices is outliers.  investment in rebuilding japan results in a modern and stable democracy in asia as well as creating a valuable trading partner.  similarly, fail to help russia rebuild after the cold war strikes us as a clear mistake even though the cost woulda' been difficult for the american public to accept.  aid mexico would have far less cost than rebuild russia or japan, but the benefits would actual be noticeable more immediate as well as providing more significant long term benefits. 

 

again, am not suggesting pursuit o' a program o' long-term and concentrated infrastructure development in mexico.  political suicide for any suggesting such a thing, particular with our domestic infrastructure needs.  even so, am recognizing how aid to mexico would not be a bottomless hole but a potential lucrative investment... more so than a wall.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Leferd]

White House: Removing Comey will help bring Russia investigation to end

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/11/politics/comey-fbi-investigation-russia-sarah-huckabee-sanders/

 

Well, atleast they admit it.

[Bartimaeus]

Meanwhile, acting director of FBI says that the investigation will continue...but that the White House will not not be kept in the loop.

[HoonDing]

Trump's word is law.

[Amentep]

Iyo, the lifetime costs to dealing with Mexico's "societal problems", the very same problems that Mexico itself cant fix, would be less than the one time cost of a wall?

 

To be fair though, there is no 'one time cost of a wall'. Once built, it'll have to be maintained just like any other structure or it'll fall apart eventually due to weather, seismic events, etc..

 

EDIT: took so long to respond I was beaten to it.  For shame.

[Gromnir]

gotta feel sympathy for spicer and huckabee sanders.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/analysis-president-trump-just-decimated-the-white-house%E2%80%99s-entire-comey-narrative/ar-BBB1kge?li=AA5a8k&ocid=spartanntp

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

 

You're living in a fantasy world. 

 

 

Yes, that's already been established.  Try to keep up!

[Elerond]

 

 

Id rather not squander resources treating other countries societal problems. Give a choice between that and a wall, I choose the wall. Not that that will work either without drone swarms.

so, squandering billions of dollars on an ineffectual wall is ok?  unforgiving terrain, rivers and private property make a secure border near impossible

 

China probably didn't get the memo

 

 

Great Wall of China is great example of putting lots of resources in ineffectual wall that failed to make their borders safe.

[Malcador]

 

Eventually you'll try prevention

for few seconds I was confused as I read it as perversion...

You do that, not try.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

Eventually you'll try prevention

for few seconds I was confused as I read it as perversion...

You do that, not try.

 

 

What if it was just once in college?