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Should the UK leave the EU?


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Who you think is best to lead UK out from EU

 

May - We will sent notice to leave as early as next year maybe, ask me again in December 2077 after I have secured my position as PM.

Gove - I am not sure what to do, but I love my country I even had to backstab put friendship aside to become Conservative leader and then new PM

Leadsom - I will make sure that UK is out from EU next year and she will make Britain "the greatest country on earth" with her. I am Trump Thatcher lite.

 

 

 

I purposefully for sake of bad humor overemphasized their statements for press.

 

Edited by Elerond
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Who you think is best to lead UK out from EU

 

May - We will sent notice to leave as early as next year maybe, ask me again in December 2077 after I have secured my position as PM.

Gove - I am not sure what to do, but I love my country I even had to backstab put friendship aside to become Conservative leader and then new PM

Leadsom - I will make sure that UK is out from EU next year and she will make Britain "the greatest country on earth" with her. I am Trump Thatcher lite.

 

 

 

I purposefully for sake of bad humor overemphasized their statements for press.

 

Its not ideal but Im leaning towards Teresa May 

 

Gove is an intellectual but he lacks....charisma?

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Bruce is the guy who would jump off a cliff while slitting his throw  after dousing himself with gasoline and lighting a match.. as long as the person who told him to do so was H0T. LMAO

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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Bruce is the guy who would jump off a cliff while slitting his throw  after dousing himself with gasoline and lighting a match.. as long as the person who told him to do so was H0T. LMAO

Volo !!!

 

Thats a terrible thing to say 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Ce13NopUEAAysSc.jpg

 

How can you guys dislike such a lovable glove puppet?

 

He looks so lifelike

Edited by Drowsy Emperor

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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Who you think is best to lead UK out from EU

 

aa610a0e6f46ee146262c094d388b3bf.jpg

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/0405/6307082a.html

 

article date is 1999.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps w/o emotes some o' you folks don't get sarcasm, so just pretend we included whatever is the current snark tag.

Edited by Gromnir

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Roy Hodgson

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Who you think is best to lead UK out from EU

 

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/0405/6307082a.html

 

article date is 1999.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps w/o emotes some o' you folks don't get sarcasm, so just pretend we included whatever is the current snark tag.

 

"In so doing, the newcomers would attach themselves to the dynamic U.S. economy, leaving behind the stagnancy and depressing statism of Europe."

Too late, we've been fundamentally transformed.

Edited by Wrath of Dagon

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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If Brexit doesn't materialize then British democracy has even less legitimacy than Kim Jong-un's rule. At least he doesn't bull**** anyone about who is "in charge".

 

The way some people in the British press/public/politics are behaving, you'd be forgiven for thinking that a referendum is a Lotto drum, to be spun until you get the numbers you like. 

Edited by Drowsy Emperor
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И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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They would feel right at home in the US if the system there produces a King George III as ruler... ;)

“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Congratulations Britain..

 

Standing up to unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs is always the right thing to do.

 

 

 

J.

 

I have also always find it is excellent way to stand up against unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs, by changing them to another group of unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs  :wowey:  

 

PS. I always wonder why people bother to put unelected before bureaucrats, as bureaucrats by their nature are unelected  :shrugz:  

 

 

Well, technocrats. But the bureaucrats of the EU tend to act as elected rulers as well.

 

 

J.

Edited by Junai
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Congratulations Britain..

 

Standing up to unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs is always the right thing to do.

 

 

 

J.

 

I have also always find it is excellent way to stand up against unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs, by changing them to another group of unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs  :wowey:  

 

PS. I always wonder why people bother to put unelected before bureaucrats, as bureaucrats by their nature are unelected  :shrugz:  

 

 

First of all, you stand up to someone, not against them. Second - it is absolutely necessary to emphasize that they are unelected, as the technocrats of the EU act as elected rulers.

 

 

J.

 

 

All the people in EU that have political power are elected.

 

  • European Parliament is elected in direct election, by citizens of EU.
  • European Council consist on heads of state or government of EU countries and European Commission President
  • Council of the European Union consist on government ministers from each EU country, according to the policy area to be discussed.
  • European Commission consist on a team or 'College' of Commissioners, 1 from each EU country. The list of nominees for Commissioners has to be approved by national leaders in the European Council. Each nominee appears before the European Parliament to explain their vision and answer questions. Parliament then votes on whether to accept the nominees as a team. Finally, they are appointed by the European Council, by a qualified majority.

It is perfectly acceptable not like work they do, or them as persons or even way they are elected, but they are all official elected by various democratic systems, in direct or indirect elections. 

 

But EU is also full of bureaucrats whose job is do the day-to-day pencil pushing, like any other government, country, organization, etc..

 

European Parliament:

  • Role: Directly-elected EU body with legislative, supervisory, and budgetary responsibilities
  • Members: 751 MEPs (Members of the European Parliament)
  • President: Martin Schulz
  • Established in: 1952 as Common Assembly of the European Coal and Steel Community, 1962 as European Parliament, first direct elections in 1979
  • Location: Strasbourg (France), Brussels (Belgium), Luxembourg

What does the Parliament do?

Legislative

  • Passing EU laws, together with the Council of the EU, based on European Commission proposals
  • Deciding on international agreements
  • Deciding on enlargements
  • Reviewing the Commission's work programme and asking it to propose legislation

Supervisory

  • Democratic scrutiny of all EU institutions
  • Electing the Commission President and approving the Commission as a body. Possibility of voting a motion of censure, obliging the Commission to resign
  • Granting discharge, i.e. approving the way EU budgets have been spent
  • Examining citizens' petitions and setting up inquiries
  • Discussing monetary policy with the European Central Bank
  • Questioning Commission and Council
  • Election observations

Budgetary

  • Establishing the EU budget, together with the Council
  • Approving the EU's long-term budget, the "Multiannual Financial Framework"

Composition

The number of MEPs for each country is roughly proportionate to its population, but this is by degressive proportionality: no country can have fewer than 6 or more than 96 MEPs and the total number cannot exceed 751 (750 plus the President). MEPs are grouped by political affiliation, not by nationality.

The President represents Parliament to other EU institutions and the outside world and gives the final go-ahead to the EU budget.

 

How does the Parliament work?

Parliament's work comprises two main stages:

  • Committees - to prepare legislation. The Parliament numbers 20 committees and two subcommittees, each handling a particular policy area. The committees examine proposals for legislation, and MEPs and political groups can put forward amendments or propose to reject a bill. These issues are also debated within the political groups.
  • Plenary sessions – to pass legislation. This is when all the MEPs gather in the chamber to give a final vote on the proposed legislation and the proposed amendments. Normally held in Strasbourg for four days a month, but sometimes there are additional sessions in Brussels.

Petitions

 

One of the fundamental rights of European citizens: Any citizen, acting individually or jointly with others, may at any time exercise his right of petition to the European Parliament under Article 227 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

Any citizen of the European Union, or resident in a Member State, may, individually or in association with others, submit a petition to the European Parliament on a subject which comes within the European Union's fields of activity and which affects them directly. Any company, organisation or association with its headquarters in the European Union may also exercise this right of petition, which is guaranteed by the Treaty.

A petition may take the form of a complaint or a request and may relate to issues of public or private interest.

The petition may present an individual request, a complaint or observation concerning the application of EU law or an appeal to the European Parliament to adopt a position on a specific matter. Such petitions give the European Parliament the opportunity of calling attention to any infringement of a European citizen's rights by a Member State or local authorities or other institution.

 

European citizens' initiative

 

As of 1 April 2012, EU citizens have a new tool allowing them to participate in shaping EU policy. Put in place by the Lisbon Treaty, the citizens' initiative allows 1 million citizens from at least a quarter of the EU Member States to ask the European Commission to propose legislation in areas that fall within its competence.

The organisers of a citizens' initiative - a citizens' committee composed of at least 7 EU citizens, resident in at least 7 different Member States - have 1 year to collect the necessary support.

Signatures must be certified by the competent authorities in each Member States. Organisers of successful initiatives will participate in a hearing at the European Parliament. The Commission will have 3 months to examine the initiative and decide how to act on it.

 

European Commission

 

Role: Promotes the general interest of the EU by proposing and enforcing legislation as well as by implementing policies and the EU budget

Members: A team or 'College' of Commissioners, 1 from each EU country

President: Jean-Claude Juncker

Year established: 1958

Location: Brussels (Belgium)

 

What does the Commission do?

Proposes new laws

  • The Commission is the sole EU institution tabling laws for adoption by the Parliament and the Council that:
  • protect the interests of the EU and its citizens on issues that can't be dealt with effectively at national level;
  • get technical details right by consulting experts and the public.

Manages EU policies & allocates EU funding

  • Sets EU spending priorities, together with the Council and Parliament.
  • Draws up annual budgets for approval by the Parliament and Council.
  • Supervises how the money is spent, under scrutiny by the Court of Auditors.

Enforces EU law

  • Together with the Court of Justice, ensures that EU law is properly applied in all the member countries.

Represents the EU internationally

  • Speaks on behalf of all EU countries in international bodies, in particular in areas of trade policy and humanitarian aid.
  • Negotiates international agreements for the EU.

Council of the European Union (also called Council of Ministers)

Role: Voice of EU member governments, adopting EU laws and coordinating EU policies

Members: Government ministers from each EU country, according to the policy area to be discussed

President: Each EU country holds the presidency on a 6-month rotating basis

Established in: 1958 (as Council of the European Economic Community)

Location: Brussels (Belgium)

 

What does the Council do?

  • Negotiates and adopts EU laws, together with the European Parliament, based on proposals from the European Commission
  • Coordinates EU countries' policies
  • Develops the EU's foreign & security policy, based on European Council guidelines
  • Concludes agreements between the EU and other countries or international organisations
  • Adopts the annual EU budget - jointly with the European Parliament.

Composition

There are no fixed members of the EU Council. Instead, the Council meets in 10 different configurations, each corresponding to the policy area being discussed. Depending on the configuration, each country sends their minister responsible for that policy area.

For example, when the Council meeting on economic and financial affairs (the "Ecofin Council") is held, it is attended by each country's finance minister.

 

How does the Council work?

  • All discussions & votes take place in public.
  • To be passed, decisions usually require a qualified majority :
    • 55% of countries (with 28 current members, this means 16 countries)
    • representing at least 65 % of total EU population.

To block a decision, at least 4 countries are needed (representing at least 35% of total EU population)

  • Exception - sensitive topics like foreign policy and taxation require a unanimous vote (all countries in favour).
  • Simple majority is required for procedural & administrative issues

European Council

 

Role: Defines the general political direction and priorities of the European Union

Members: Heads of state or government of EU countries, European Commission President, High Representative for Foreign Affairs & Security Policy

President: Donald Tusk

Established in: 1974 (informal forum), 1992 (formal status), 2009 (official EU institution)

 

What does the European Council do?

  • Decides on the EU's overall direction and political priorities – but does not pass laws.
  • Deals with complex or sensitive issues that cannot be resolved at lower levels of intergovernmental cooperation
  • Sets the EU's common foreign & security policy, taking into account EU strategic interests and defence implications
  • Nominates and appoints candidates to certain high profile EU level roles, such as the ECB and the Commission

On each issue, the European Council can:

  • ask the European Commission to make a proposal to address it.
  • pass it on to the Council of the EU to deal with

Composition

The European Council is made up of the heads of state or government of all EU countries, the European Commission President and the High Representative for Foreign Affairs & Security Policy.

It is convened and chaired by its President, who is elected by the European Council itself for a once-renewable two-and-a-half-year term. The President represents the EU to the outside world.

 

How does the European Council work?

It usually meets 4 times a year – but the President can convene additional meetings to address urgent issues.

It generally decides issues by consensus – but by unanimity or qualified majority in some cases. Only the heads of state/government can vote.

 

 

Political%20System%20of%20the%20European

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Technically they're elected but their reach was set and expanded by agreements withing the EU superstructure, not through nation based decision making. In other words, the elected elites shaped the "federal" system with little no bottom up input. Whenever bottom up input was sought (as in the EU constitutions referendums, Brexit) it usually failed.

 

This suggests that the masses dislike the way things are run in the EU. The only directly elected European body, the EP, is a weak institution. On paper it has significant power, in practice the least representative and accountable institutions, the Comission and the Council run the show.

 

All of this would not be a problem if the overall trends within that system acted in favor of the hypothetical European citizen of the future. But they champion the US imported neoliberal model that favors European (and other) corporate elites. The EU institutions are thus used to erode the remnants of the welfare state and the economic benefits of the lower middle and working classes, which is why they are so hostile to the EU project. They also push the melting pot ideology and essentially uncontrolled immigration (because the financial elites like to keep the wages depressed) which has 0 popular support in Europe. These are the two primary reasons that the masses (which are not as stupid as everyone likes to believe) now seem so willing to dismantle the EU.

Edited by Drowsy Emperor
  • Like 1

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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Technically they're elected but their reach was set and expanded by agreements withing the EU superstructure, not through nation based decision making. In other words, the elected elites shaped the "federal" system with little no bottom up input. Whenever bottom up input was sought (as in the EU constitutions referendums, Brexit) it usually failed.

 

This suggests that the masses dislike the way things are run in the EU. The only directly elected European body, the EP, is a weak institution. On paper it has significant power, in practice the least representative and accountable institutions, the Comission and the Council run the show.

 

All of this would not be a problem if the overall trends within that system acted in favor of the hypothetical European citizen of the future. But they champion the US imported neoliberal model that favors European (and other) corporate elites. The EU institutions are thus used to erode the remnants of the welfare state and the economic benefits of the lower middle and working classes, which is why they are so hostile to the EU project. They also push the melting pot ideology and essentially uncontrolled immigration (because the financial elites like to keep the wages depressed) which has 0 popular support in Europe. These are the two primary reasons that the masses (which are not as stupid as everyone likes to believe) now seem so willing to dismantle the EU.

 

Mostly masses have accepted changes or they are indifferent about them, because people keep vote politician driving in those changes in their national parliaments and in European parliament, meaning that even though there is no referendums most people have accepted those changes. And interestingly public trust towards EU has increased significantly from 2013, when it was in all time low, also trust towards national governments has increased from that low point. Of course that trust may have plummeted during current year, for multiple reasons, refugee crisis being top contender.   Referendums about EU's constitutional changes has been demanded and organized only minority of EU countries and eventually there has been always agreements that even those countries accept (like for example people of Ireland are currently holding most positive outlook about EU of all member countries even though in past they voted against it in referendums). Brexit will probably be first time when there will not be compromise in the issues, because ultimate nature of it. 

 

Eurobarometer also show interesting change in public opinion in 2014, percentage of people that say that their voice isn't heard in EU went from 66% to  52% to 50% in 2015. (In UK, Italy, Spain, Czech, Latvia, Cyprus and Greece over 60% people are holding opinion that their voice isn't heard in EU, in Cyprus and Greece percentage is over 70%. Sweden has highest percentage (69%) of people that feel that their voice is heard in EU, followed by Denmark (68%) and Croatia (67%), Eu averages in this issues are 50% of people think that their voice isn't heard in EU and 42% think that their voice is heard in EU, 8% answered don't know). 58% of people in EU have optimistic view of EU's future and 36% have pessimistic view of its future. People of UK were most pessimistic after People of Greece and Cyprus (which in hindsight foretell results of this referendum). Like I said earlier people of Ireland have most positive outlook about EU's future with 77% of them holding positive outlook about EU's future. People of UK told in barometer named same issues as EU's biggest problems that they told after referendum, immigration being #1, economy #2 and unemployment #3. Same three issues are also biggest problems for rest of EU. Surprisingly for Portugal and Finland biggest issue is other member states Financial state, even though both are suffering from their own economic issues. And not so surprisingly Germany and Malta are most worried about immigration in EU. And Greece, Spain and Cyprus are most worried about economy and Ireland fear most of unemployment. From national point of view unemployment is biggest issues with large margin and immigration is second. Not so surprisingly euro countries like euro and non-euro countries don't like it. Estonia as new euro country has most positive view about monetary union and UK has most negative view. 67% of people said that they feel that they are citizens of EU. in UK only 56% hold that opinion. In Cyprus, Greece, and Bulgaria only 50% held that opinion. In Luxembourg 88% of people said that they feel like citizens of EU. People of UK and Finland are least interest to know more about their rights as citizens of EU. Nearly all people in Cyprus were interested to know more about their rights as citizens of EU. Free movement of people, goods and services is seen as most positive thing in EU, peace between member states is close second. 56% people of EU see free trade agreement in favorable light although its supports seem to be decreasing.

 

In short public opinion seem to regard EU in OK light, but there has been clear sign for several years that people of UK have different direction in their mind that rest of EU. 

 

http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb83/eb83_first_en.pdf

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Congratulations Britain..

 

Standing up to unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs is always the right thing to do.

 

 

 

J.

 

I have also always find it is excellent way to stand up against unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs, by changing them to another group of unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs  :wowey:  

 

PS. I always wonder why people bother to put unelected before bureaucrats, as bureaucrats by their nature are unelected  :shrugz:  

 

 

First of all, you stand up to someone, not against them. Second - it is absolutely necessary to emphasize that they are unelected, as the technocrats of the EU act as elected rulers.

 

 

J.

 

 

All the people in EU that have political power are elected.

 

 

Don't trust your high-school teacher..

 

 

 

J.

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Congratulations Britain..

 

Standing up to unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs is always the right thing to do.

 

 

 

J.

 

I have also always find it is excellent way to stand up against unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs, by changing them to another group of unelected bureaucrats and megalomaniacs  :wowey:  

 

PS. I always wonder why people bother to put unelected before bureaucrats, as bureaucrats by their nature are unelected  :shrugz:  

 

 

First of all, you stand up to someone, not against them. Second - it is absolutely necessary to emphasize that they are unelected, as the technocrats of the EU act as elected rulers.

 

 

J.

 

 

All the people in EU that have political power are elected.

 

 

Don't trust your high-school teacher..

 

 

 

J.

 

 

I didn't as I didn't go in high-school. But that don't change the fact that all people in EU that hold political power are elected.

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An educated guess: Steiner or International Baccalaureate.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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I went to secondary level college (Opisto, which teach lots of same things that gymnasiums do, but they have specialized subject that they specifically focus, like writing, music, acting, husbandry, information technology, etc,) instead of gymnasium (which is the institution that is more typical for secondary level schooling in Finland and the one which is often called high school when Finns speak about our school system in English, it is comparable to preparatory high schools in US). 

Edited by Elerond
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Really? When was the election for EU commisioners held? When was the election for EU president held? When was the election for EU commision president held? Did you vote for Juncker, Tusk or Shulz? Do you know anyone who did?

When did you vote for Szydło? Never. When did you vote for any specific government minister or bureaucrat? Never.

But you voted for PiS (or another party) that got the majority and therefore usually confirms the Prime Minister.

The election of Juncker worked exactly the same way. The large political parties in Europe ran with Juncker, Schulz, etc. as their top candidates for the job, and because the EP has to confirm anyone appointed as president of the Commission, the candidate of the majority got the job. That works almost exactly as it does in Poland. So - everyone who voted in the last EP elections voted for the Commission president, as well.

For the rest, see Elerond's post above.

Edited by Varana
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Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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