Raithe Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 Sky - EU campaign damages respect for politicians A Sky Data poll reveals the majority of Britons think the campaigns have been unhelpful in making a decision on how to vote. A majority of voters say they now have less respect for politicians as a result of the bitterly contested EU referendum campaign, a Sky Data Snap Poll reveals. On the eve of polling day, our poll also reveals the vast majority of Britons think the campaigns have been unhelpful in making a decision on how to vote. It comes after concerns were expressed about the tone of the campaign, which has been dominated by immigration and the economy. London Mayor Sadiq Khan told Sky News last week it had become "poisonous", while former prime minister Gordon Brown told The Guardian that Leave campaigners had tried to "hijack" the referendum and turn it into a vote on immigration. Our poll shows that on the issue of respect, half of voters (50%) say they now have less of it for politicians, compared with 8% who say they have engendered more respect during the campaign. Four in 10 (42%) say it has made no difference to the esteem in which politicians are held. It is in the south of England that politicians have lost the most respect, with 57% saying they now hold politicians in lower esteem. Three in four (75%) do not think the campaigns have been helpful in helping them make up their minds, with 40% saying the campaigns were actively unhelpful, and 35% saying they were neither helpful not unhelpful. Just a quarter say they helped them make their voting decision (26%). Younger people were more likely to say the campaigns had been unhelpful - among those aged 55 or over only 30% thought they were actively unhelpful compared with 42% overall. Head of Sky Data, Harry Carr, said: "Accusations of scaremongering and outright lying have made this period a damaging one for all parties involved, and have done little to aid voters in making an informed decision on a referendum of crucial importance. "Whichever way the referendum goes tomorrow, leaders from both sides will have to deal with the fallout from a toxic campaign." :: Sky Data interviewed a nationally representative sample of 1,204 Sky customers by SMS on 22 June 2016. Data are weighted to the profile of the population. For full Sky Data tables, please click here. "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
Gfted1 Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 Prime Minister Trump has a nice ring to it. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
Gorgon Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/eu-referendum-2016-brexit-odds-8182872 People tend to be more curageous when answering polls than what they actually do in the polling booth. Add to that a tiny lead in the yes camp. Britain stays in the EU. Probably. 1 Na na na na na na ... greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER. That is all.
Hiro Protagonist Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 I'd say with so many undecided, people may end up voting with what they know (remain) instead of the unknown (leave). We know it's stuffed, but it could be even more stuffed up if we leave, so I'll go with what I know with being just stuffed.
Valsuelm Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) Have to admit i'm still on the fence, yes I don't trust the unelected officials of Brussels, but on the other hand I most certainly don't trust the elected representatives of Westminster, especially when they have no one looking over their shoulder. Ideally as others have said i'd vote for, "Go back to being a trade block." False binary decisions really rub my rhubarb. So you're on the fence about ceding your national sovereignty with it's usually corrupt parliamentary democracy to an always corrupt always bought and paid for bureaucratic corporate/banker dictatorship? Really? This is a no brainer vote methinks. Do you want a say or not? If yes, vote GTFO, if no, vote remain. The whole you've got corrupt politicians thing is certainly real, but you've got a chance to get rid of them in any given election. This is likely your last chance ever to get rid of the corrupt bureaucrats in Brussels that trump your locally and nationally elected folks . Relatively peacefully anyways... Put very simply: Yay serfdom forever! > Remain To hell with serfdom! > Leave and continue to fight the good political fight within your nation. Edited June 22, 2016 by Valsuelm
HoonDing Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 It's too late. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.
Hiro Protagonist Posted June 22, 2016 Posted June 22, 2016 I don't see a compelling argument to stay compared to leaving. Instead of fearing the unknown, I look at it as being free of the shackles and the opportunity to chart your own course. I know there are countries willing to talk trade once Britain leaves. If Britain stays, those trade talks are all but stopped.
Oerwinde Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 My understanding is the vast majority of British trade is outside the EU anyway, and the EU is hampering British use of its resources. Seems like whatever economic impact there will be won't be huge if they leave. The area between the balls and the butt is a hotbed of terrorist activity.
Zoraptor Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Personally, I'd be voting out if I were voting- but I fully expect stay to win. That their campaign has been so unremittingly negative says as much as needs saying about how rubbish the status quo is, but status quo is certainly the safe choice.
Chilloutman Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 If I would be from UK I would vote quit without hesitation as member of EU I am torn. If they leave and EU wake up and start reforming I would be happy. If they stay and start pushing reforms for EU I would be happy. If everything stays same I would be sad. I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"
BruceVC Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/eu-referendum-2016-brexit-odds-8182872 People tend to be more curageous when answering polls than what they actually do in the polling booth. Add to that a tiny lead in the yes camp. Britain stays in the EU. Probably. This is my prediction, end of the day the UK will prudently stay in the EU "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Meshugger Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Freedom is scary for many people. 1 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
BruceVC Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 Freedom is scary for many people. Not really, economic precedent and economic reality is more important than idealistic views of " freedom " for many people "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Meshugger Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) Freedom is scary for many people. Not really, economic precedent and economic reality is more important than idealistic views of " freedom " for many people You should've seen the amount of slaves begging to get jobs at their previous plantation once they were freed in the american south, turbulent times indeed. Edited June 23, 2016 by Meshugger 1 "Some men see things as they are and say why?""I dream things that never were and say why not?"- George Bernard Shaw"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."- Friedrich Nietzsche "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." - Some guy
Raithe Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 For those still undecided on today's vote, I hope this will help. Making an informed choice has proved incredibly difficult given the way the referendum campaign has been fought. I've taken my time and have tried to find objective facts. I'm not going to share my opinion but for those still unsure, I'm going to share this information in as neutral a way as I can. I do hope this is at least helpful to some: 1. Economy: there are broadly two issues, how much do we pay to the EU and what is likely to be the net benefit or harm to leaving. We pay c.£350m per week, but that is not the complete picture. This figure is much fought over because it does not allow for what we get back as a rebate and by way of subsidies (for example to universities). Both of these are variable and so it is impossible to know for certain what is our net contribution. Estimates place this between £110 - £190 million pw. The net figure is however also not the complete picture because we cannot chose what to spend the subsidies on and there are EU restrictions on what other subsidies we can chose to make and whether we could use it to better effect for our economy. In terms of the effect of leaving there are so many factors to take into account (our contribution, trade agreements, fisheries, agricultural policy, tax control etc) that it would take a book to properly analyse. Expert consensus is that we are better off In. Experts do not agree by how much and of course as a prediction may prove false (such as with their view on joining he Euro). As an indication the most recent IMF study said growth would likely slow from c.2.5% by just over c.1% (still growth, but not as much) but worst case (assuming we reach no deal with the EU at all) it would drop to -0.8% (a slight recession). 2. Immigration: Its important to understand that Free Movement of Workers (an EU right) is only for EU citizens. Immigration from outside the EU is a separate issue and not a factor for the referendum. Net migration (those coming less those leaving) fluctuates drastically. It is currently around 300 million per year. The aim of free movement is to allow for greater flexibility in filling vacancies across the common market. The concern is availability of resources within the UK. Best estimates suggest EU workers contribute more in tax than they take in resources. This however is not always easy to verify. Turkey has been seeking membership for over 30 years and there are no signs it will be joining any time soon. 3. Human Rights: this is a separate issue. The European convention on human rights was signed in 1953 and set up The European Court of Human Rights. This is a separate institution to the EU and it is a separate court to the European Court of Justice. Leaving the EU does not mean we will leave the ECHR. 4. Democracy: there are seven institutions of the EU, although four main power blocks. The ECJ (the appointed court), the Commission (entirely unelected), the Council (attended by one minister from each state) , the parliament (entirely elected). All 4 bodies have various powers. The council and Parliament are the lawmaking bodies, but Parliament has only limited power. Whilst the UK is a member state its laws are subservient to EU law. UK laws are made by Acts of Parliament and delegated legislation. Most EU laws are made by the latter. Looking at the number of Acts alone is therefore an incomplete picture. The percentage of UK law made by the EU is difficult to gauge especially if you include decisions of the ECJ. Recent research presented by Jeremy Paxman in his documentary found this to be about 59%. It is widely accepted the EU is not (at least) fully democratic. The question is can we change it from within or are we better of accepting it won't change sufficiently and leave. The only opinion I will add on the subject is in relation to this question of whether we can change our minds. The answer is yes but it will not be easy either way. If we leave, expect re-entry negotiations to be tough. If we remain, do not expect another Brexit Referendum anytime soon. The main stream Conservative wing has ruled it out, the Left wing parties didn't want to hold this referendum and it's taken over 20 years of campaigning to get one. It's a tough choice. Make it rationally but indeed make it. And let's all hope it works out well. Happy voting. "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
Raithe Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I will say this, my inner paranoia wants to run rampant when you go to the polling station and they only provide pencils to make your mark.... "Cuius testiculos habeas, habeas cardia et cerebellum."
Nonek Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 The whole you've got corrupt politicians thing is certainly real, but you've got a chance to get rid of them in any given election. To be replaced with other corrupt politicians or spineless trade union lackeys, most probably all from the same schools and backgrounds, backed by the same institutions and with the same mandate of perpetuating Parliament rather than serving the people. I'm going to flip a coin. "I am presented with a dilema, let's call it a two sided coin, if the coin falls one way Britain sacrifices itself and thus restores Europe and the status quo. If the coin lands on the reverse Britain refuses the sacrifice and thus dooms Europe and itself to an uncertain future and possible collapse. Either way the game is rigged." "Apparently this is so, but suppose you throw a coin enough times, suppose one day it lands on its edge..." Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin. Tea for the teapot!
Guard Dog Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I've avoided taking a stance on this because I'm not British and I think it is arrogant and presumptuous for someone who does not an has never lived in GB to tell them how their country ought to be run. But if I were I'd be voting to send the EU and the Brussels bureaucrats back across the channel where they belong. 1 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
BruceVC Posted June 23, 2016 Author Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) I've avoided taking a stance on this because I'm not British and I think it is arrogant and presumptuous for someone who does not an has never lived in GB to tell them how their country ought to be run. But if I were I'd be voting to send the EU and the Brussels bureaucrats back across the channel where they belong. GD !!! How rude, you dont see us getting involved in the politics of the USA and giving our opinions do you ? Edited June 23, 2016 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Hurlshort Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I just don't see the tangible benefits to leaving. The EU may have a tremendous amount of problems, but does this fix any of them? But honestly I'm just parroting John Oliver here, it is hard to develop a real personal opinion when I am so far separated from it all. Good luck!
Rosbjerg Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I just don't see the tangible benefits to leaving. The EU may have a tremendous amount of problems, but does this fix any of them? But honestly I'm just parroting John Oliver here, it is hard to develop a real personal opinion when I am so far separated from it all. Good luck! The EU is, for better or worse, still one of the most impressive pieces of diplomacy and statecraft .. It's developing in a way I'm not appriciating and that is certainly reason to voice concern - but the whole "it's done far worse than it's done good" is a bold-faced lie... The problem is this dichotomous view of everything that we humans are proned to. I just wish that this election will give the citizens a chance to reflect on which way they actually want to see the contient go. Fortune favors the bald.
Guard Dog Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) I just don't see the tangible benefits to leaving. The EU may have a tremendous amount of problems, but does this fix any of them? But honestly I'm just parroting John Oliver here, it is hard to develop a real personal opinion when I am so far separated from it all. Good luck! Suppose for a moment we had such a thing. Would you want a bureaucrat in Ottawa whom you have never met or is answerable to you in anyway having the authority of override or nullify the actions of you own legislature in Sacramento? I find the whole notion ironic really. Millions of Europeans have given their lives fighting wars over the centuries to keep their sovereign soil from being ruled by a foreign government that knows nothing about them and cares nothing for them. And in the end they just handed it all over pretty meekly. Now if the EU was, as conceived, a purely economic alliance it wouldn't be an issue but it's getting to be a lot more controlling and interfering as the years go from my point of view. Edited June 23, 2016 by Guard Dog "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell
Rosbjerg Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 Eh, your current form of federal government is arguably even more removed from your citizen than ours, but sure... 1 Fortune favors the bald.
Elerond Posted June 23, 2016 Posted June 23, 2016 I just don't see the tangible benefits to leaving. The EU may have a tremendous amount of problems, but does this fix any of them? But honestly I'm just parroting John Oliver here, it is hard to develop a real personal opinion when I am so far separated from it all. Good luck! Suppose for a moment we had such a thing. Would you want a bureaucrat in Ottawa whom you have never met or is answerable to you in anyway having the authority of override or nullify the actions of you own legislature in Sacramento? I find the whole notion ironic really. Millions of Europeans have given their lives fighting wars over the centuries to keep their sovereign soil from being ruled by a foreign government that knows nothing about them and cares nothing for them. And in the end they just handed it all over pretty meekly. Now if the EU was, as conceived, a purely economic alliance it wouldn't be an issue but it's getting to be a lot more controlling and interfering as the years go from my point of view. That is still true. Whatever you like EU or not, it isn't foreign government that rules over us. It is complex institution that independent countries use to find common solutions to their issues. And there is always room to make adjustments, exceptions etc. to everything that is agreed via EU. Purely economic alliance is just illusion/day dream that really can't exist as other issues will always play in direct or indirect way when nations try to agree about something. In short issues that people have with EU would not go away even if EU was pure trade union and they also would not go away even if EU would not exists. Issues would maybe have bit different form because of how things would be decided but same issues would still exists. Question is more do EU make solving those issues easier or harder compared to alternatives.
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