Resting / Camping Discussion Thread

[Caerdon]

There once was a time when I would've advocated a no-resting, per-encounter-abilities-only system, but not anymore. This way is just superior. It's had a positive effect on my gaming experience, and I haven't had any need to backtrack so far with 2 camping supplies.

[Iankas]

Personally I feel they've done a great job with the resting system.

 

Playing my first game on Hard i.e. can only rest twice:

Having to manage my resources carefully makes for a better game. Being able to use my big spells all the time makes for a boring and repetitive game play. Being resource constrained I am forced to constantly change my tactic according to what's available to me.

As a rule I try to withhold resting as much as possible when playing IE games so it carries over.

 

Punished for being unprepared and forgetting to resupply is a good gameplay design in my eyes.

But there's no denying that many players are unable / unwilling to play the game until the patch is out and we are still waiting even in the middle of Easter holiday. I chose GOG and kinda regretting it now if this is going to keep happening for all subsequent patches (being late days compared to Steam).

[Emptiness]

I think they implemented rest very well; certainly better than how it has been implemented in other games I've played, including the IE games.  The resting mechanic is what allows there to be powerful per-rest spells and abilities without the game turning into a tedious cycle of burning your party's entire power during each fight and then resting afterwards.  Limiting powerful abilities allows for more interesting choices in combat, where you need to decide when to reserve a powerful ability and when to use it.  The alternative is to remove rest and allow every ability to be used per-encounter - but then every fight would have to be equally epic or the power level of abilities would have to be lowered and every fight would be equally un-epic.  Additionally, you'd be wasting a larger portion of your play time resting.  As it is now they are free to vary the difficulty level of encounters while still maintaining an overall level of difficulty based on requiring you to ration how you use your power.  I think that the end result is that the game is more fun.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Emptiness

[Volourn]

People who hate on resting mechnaics are not real adventurers. Resting is when you bond with your fellow adventurers and the longer you go without the need to rest shows how truly awesomesauce you are as an adventurer. As a DM, you would never be able to 'rest' in a middle of a dungeon a la spam and if you left (if that was a choice) you'd probably have some surprises waiting when you return (new surprise traps more dezines if logical ie. necro raising more dead), other adevnturers sneaking in when you leave, etc., etc. Maybe even the boss (if there is one) actually  waiting to ambush you right at the entrance when you return.

 

Resting more than once or twice in a one day period is illogical, unfun, uncouth, and epic fail.

[santanzchild]

The current camping/rest mechanic works perfectly if you even try to challenge your self.  If you are running back to town to buy supplies and sleep in the Inn that is on you for the rest of us that are trying to work within the constraints that the devs put on us it is very rewarding and adds alot to the game.

[Zorfab]

I think they implemented rest very well; certainly better than how it has been implemented in other games I've played, including the IE games.  The resting mechanic is what allows there to be powerful per-rest spells and abilities without the game turning into a tedious cycle of burning your party's entire power during each fight and then resting afterwards.  Limiting powerful abilities allows for more interesting choices in combat, where you need to decide when to reserve a powerful ability and when to use it.  The alternative is to remove rest and allow every ability to be used per-encounter - but then every fight would have to be equally epic or the power level of abilities would have to be lowered and every fight would be equally un-epic.  Additionally, you'd be wasting a larger portion of your play time resting.  As it is now they are free to vary the difficulty level of encounters while still maintaining an overall level of difficulty based on requiring you to ration how you use your power.  I think that the end result is that the game is more fun.

The meaningful alternative is to reset the dungeon if player retreats (for example, Souls games) and teach them how to play better through this.

Or make the inhabitants organize superior defense next time he returns (mostly seen this on pen and paper games, unfortunately).

Or make the quest fail, because villains left the dungeon and took the important loot with them / killed the virgin / nuked the village with a ritual meteor spell.

Or locking the party in the dungeon and forcing them to deal with it using the limited resources they have + whatever they can scavenge from the location (like old school Dungeon Master games, where you have to eat and drink, which means scavenging by advancing in the dungeon and killing monsters for food).

 

Consequences that actually matter.

[Blovski]

This is the first time an RPG has really made me feel the attrition of multiple encounters, which is a much better approach imo than instant magic total restoration on encounter end. On normal I don't think I was ever pushed for camping supplies. Now I've moved up to hard I'm really enjoying the tighter limitations, drive to pick up stuff from the environment and keep my spells for the tough battles.

Wizards would have to be a whole lot worse to balance out all their spells being per-encounter. I'd love to see the bitching on the forums after that change.

[DocDoomII]

Because this is an old school game that doesn't use regeneration for everything like modern games do.

[Dongom]

 

Wizards would have to be a whole lot worse to balance out all their spells being per-encounter. I'd love to see the bitching on the forums after that change.

 

 

As of the latest patch T1/2 of Wizard spells are balanced for per encounter, only you don't get it until level 9 for some odd reason. It's just tedium for tedium's sake.

[tinysalamander]

Resting is when you bond with your fellow adventurers

I'm pretty sure this is PoE and not Grandia 2

[Aotrs Commander]

I think the resting mechanics is so good, I'm more that half inclined to start using it on my TABLETOP gaming, let alone in PoE itself. (Especially for something like 4E, where we have had to come to a gentleman's agreement with the DM to fight for encounters before resting so we don't slaughter the module.)

 

I find it also quite amusing tat we have finally take to calling it "per rest" and not "per day", since I suspect it's only been truly "per day" and not "per 8 hours rest" in the early days of the D&D. (Though they COULD have set it in BG 1 to what the strict reading of the rules said, which was clerics only got spells at sunset or dawn (or some other set time of day), but that would have merely made everyone have to click the button 2-3 times instead of once...)

[Mungri]

Noobs will be noobs.

 

The rest mechanic is awesome.

 

Inside radrics hold you don't need supplies to rest. You get free resting at certain NPCs.

[Veynn]

I play on Hard and I find limited resting/camping a challenge. 

[pipgrandpa]

Thanks for those constructive replies guys.

 

I thought I may address a few things here based on your replies. (Anyone know how to edit the original post? I can't find the edit button anymore...

 

1) My main idea, put briefly, is that the devs should eliminate resting, make all spells per encounter and up the challenge of each encounter.

 

I don't think this will result in spell spamming because, aside from the upped challenge, per encounter, you are still only able to utilise a limited # of spells out of you spell pool and limited # of castings.

 

Again, as I have mentioned, encounter designs are the key.

 

I understand I'm suggesting changes to a classic formula, and changes are scary because no one knows for sure if the result will be better, so the question becomes whether the change is worth trying. I think if you really read my post, it won't be hard for you to see that I'm suggesting something that is.

 

2) Other than the above I'm NOT suggesting ANYTHING ELSE - definitely not a shift from consuming casting counts to mana points.

 

3) My quarrel with resting in IE games is that it's pointless. My quarrel with resting in PoE is that it forces you to backtrack, wastes time, and becomes even more annoying.

 

At the moment in PoE(hard), to minimise backtracking I'm already using abilities/spells sparingly. Even so I still have to backtrack sometimes. Although I do tend to forget to resupply, and I hate frequent S/L. [edited]

 

BTW I don't think the game is hard on hard difficulty. I'm just annoyed by having to waste time for travelling instead of having smooth uninterrupted dungeon playthroughs. [added by edit]

 

4) I brought up Dragon Age because it's the only game off the top of my head that truly breaks its combat experience into encounters and it did a great job. So if there is already a successful example with what I'm suggesting why don't we all try refreshing out perspective and encourage Obsidian to give it a go?

 

Also remember DA is developed by Bioware before they were merged with Mythic Entertainment and really lost their independence under EA and produced such abomination as DA2 with it's careless and s***ty encounter designs.

 

For the record I didn't get my ideas from Dragon Age. I had them when I was still playing a lot of Baldur's Gate II. Also I'm not saying DA is better or worse than the classic IE games, but that DA handled encounters better.

 

On a side note, strategy-wise, I wouldn't say DA is less enjoyble than IE games or PoE. Rather, DA took a different approach due to its Tactics mechanics, in that IE games require you to strategise during an encounter whereas DA provides you the OPTION to communicate your strategy BEFORE the encounter. Delving deep into this option in DA you can get a lot of fun out of it. 

My last playthrough of DA (no DLC) I was on Nightmare difficulty with the main character being a shield warrior, Wynne, Leliana, and Alistair (archer build). With properly thought-out tactics for everyone I powered through the game with little challenge and was able to defeat the Archdemon without pause, a keyboard, or use of potions. (Somebody mentioned optimal composition need to have three mages?  )

 

[edited to reformat]

Edited April 4, 2015 by pipgrandpa

[Psychevore]

I'd like the resting mechanic if there was some sort of penalty for resting, i.e. ambushes.

 

But in this game you can murder half a castle, then take a nap; no problems.

[SeekDWay]

The resting mechanics works well, this is supposed to be an IE tribute so deal with it. It's not handled in the best way possible, but its still very good. If you want a game with a bunch of cooldowns, resource management and other such crap this is not the game for you and never will be. PoE is a true role playing game, combat is only one facet of it.

 

You might also try pretending to be more mature when posting on these forums.

 

Bah, why am I even trying to read this ****, go play flappy bird instead.

[Maviarab]

Do you feel better now your self entitled 'I will do what I please attitude cos I bought the game' made yet ANOTHER post about this godamn subject?

[Emptiness]

I understand I'm suggesting changes to a classic formula, and changes are scary because no one knows for sure if the result will be good, so the questing becomes whether the change is worth trying. I think if you really read my post, it won't be hard for you to see I'm suggesting something worth trying.

 

You are asking for a complete redesign of the game.  The current resting mechanic is fundamental to the design of the encounters and the character classes.  Removing rest as a concept in favor of a no-rest system would require a complete overhaul of every ability, talent, and spell that is currently limited per-rest and a complete redesign of every encounter in the game.  Certain items would need to be redesigned as well.

 

My guess is that we are far, far beyond the point of no return on the question of whether or not PoE will have resting.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Emptiness

[DocDoomII]

Just a suggestion.

 

Wild font sizes and colors make your posts a pain in the ass to read.

[manageri]

Indeed, Dragon Age has shown us that resting is not needed at all to make a good CRPG. The fact that game had its own issues (like absurdly OP mages), as some pointed out, have nothing to do with it's elimination of resting. The fact is still, as it always was in IE games, that resting adds absolutely no challenge to the game. In IE games it meant you have to reload if you get ambushed and can't handle that fight. Staring at a loading screen for a few seconds is no way challenging or "strategic", which seems to be the buzzword people love throwing around here with no explanation for how that makes sense. In PoE, if you run out of supplies, you simply walk back to the nearest inn, again having the equivalent of staring at a loading screen for a bit.

 

I ask you this: What would be the grand "strategic" difference between the current PoE system, and an infinite resting system where you simply get a message saying "your party returns to town to rest and returns"? That's right, nothing whatsoever, except that it takes less time from you. There is ZERO added challenge or strategic depth in the PoE system in comparison. The only reason I can see for having this stupid limited supply system is indeed trying to make the game feel more like the IE games, regardless of whether it's ultimately the best mechanic. If the game wasn't so easy and people actually needed to do multiple trips to an inn all the time while clearing a dungeon, the transparent nature of the system's pointlessness would be more easily seen. Perhaps when people start doing some ironman runs and rest a lot to reduce the danger they'll figure out running to town all the time is nothing but tedious busywork. Hopefully someone mods this out soon with a simple rest = lose 75cp mod.

[pipgrandpa]

Do you feel better now your self entitled 'I will do what I please attitude cos I bought the game' made yet ANOTHER post about this godamn subject?

My first five posts need to be approved by a moderator. If the moderator believed it was OK to let it be known what's your problem?

 

Do YOU feel better now your self-entitled "I can judge you even though I'm just another player like everyone else by nature" has been put into action?

[pipgrandpa]

 

I understand I'm suggesting changes to a classic formula, and changes are scary because no one knows for sure if the result will be good, so the questing becomes whether the change is worth trying. I think if you really read my post, it won't be hard for you to see I'm suggesting something worth trying.

 

You are asking for a complete redesign of the game.  The current resting mechanic is fundamental to the design of the encounters and the character classes.  Removing rest as a concept in favor of a no-rest system would require a complete overhaul of every ability, talent, and spell that is currently limited per-rest and a complete redesign of every encounter in the game.  Certain items would need to be redesigned as well.

 

My guess is that we are far, far beyond the point of no return on the question of whether or not PoE will have resting.

 

True. I don't intend to claim my suggestion is a small change in the first place and I don't actually pin much hope on PoE being modified this way any time soon. My best hope is that it can be taking into consideration in the future.

[PrimeJunta]

@pipgrandpa Your proposed changes would still remove the strategic dimension of dungeon-crawling: restricting the use of your more powerful abilties so you have them available when you need them.

 

And once more the old saw: if you find yourself needing to backtrack a lot, play better.

[pipgrandpa]

@pipgrandpa Your proposed changes would still remove the strategic dimension of dungeon-crawling: restricting the use of your more powerful abilties so you have them available when you need them.

 

And once more the old saw: if you find yourself needing to backtrack a lot, play better.

Doing my best to play better at the moment. This is my first playthrough and I haven't got much time to play since the game's release. That's why I'm still at Raedrick's Hold. Hopefully backtracking is not going to bother me much later on.

[Guest BugsVendor]

Thanks for those constructive replies guys.

 

I thought I may address a few things here based on your replies. (Anyone know how to edit the original post? I can't find the edit button anymore...

 

1) My main idea, put briefly, is that the devs should eliminate resting, make all spells per encounter and up the challenge of each encounter.

 

I don't think this will result in spell spamming because, aside from the upped challenge, per encounter, you are still only able to utilise a limited # of spells out of you spell pool and limited # of castings.

 

Again, as I have mentioned, encounter designs are the key.

 

I understand I'm suggesting changes to a classic formula, and changes are scary because no one knows for sure if the result will be better, so the question becomes whether the change is worth trying. I think if you really read my post, it won't be hard for you to see that I'm suggesting something that is.

 

2) Other than the above I'm NOT suggesting ANYTHING ELSE - definitely not a shift from consuming casting counts to mana points.

 

3) My quarrel with resting in IE games is that it's pointless. My quarrel with resting in PoE is that it forces you to backtrack, wastes time, and becomes even more annoying.

 

At the moment in PoE(hard), to minimise backtracking I'm already using abilities/spells sparingly. Even so I still have to backtrack sometimes. Although I do tend to forget to resupply, and I hate frequent S/L. [edited]

 

BTW I don't think the game is hard on hard difficulty. I'm just annoyed by having to waste time for travelling instead of having smooth uninterrupted dungeon playthroughs. [added by edit]

 

4) I brought up Dragon Age because it's the only game off the top of my head that truly breaks its combat experience into encounters and it did a great job. So if there is already a successful example with what I'm suggesting why don't we all try refreshing out perspective and encourage Obsidian to give it a go?

 

Also remember DA is developed by Bioware before they were merged with Mythic Entertainment and really lost their independence under EA and produced such abomination as DA2 with it's careless and s***ty encounter designs.

 

For the record I didn't get my ideas from Dragon Age. I had them when I was still playing a lot of Baldur's Gate II. Also I'm not saying DA is better or worse than the classic IE games, but that DA handled encounters better.

 

On a side note, strategy-wise, I wouldn't say DA is less enjoyble than IE games or PoE. Rather, DA took a different approach due to its Tactics mechanics, in that IE games require you to strategise during an encounter whereas DA provides you the OPTION to communicate your strategy BEFORE the encounter. Delving deep into this option in DA you can get a lot of fun out of it. 

My last playthrough of DA (no DLC) I was on Nightmare difficulty with the main character being a shield warrior, Wynne, Leliana, and Alistair (archer build). With properly thought-out tactics for everyone I powered through the game with little challenge and was able to defeat the Archdemon without pause, a keyboard, or use of potions. (Somebody mentioned optimal composition need to have three mages?  )

 

[edited to reformat]

 

Christ almighty.

 

Whoever was able to read this formatting and colours needs to visit a specialist.

 

I didn't read it and I continue the discussion pretending it is not there. 

 

I played on path of the damned, got very far in the game before I got stopped by bugs that should never have have been there in a released product.

 

On path of the damned you are allowed to have at most 2 camping supplies at a time. This is one of the best new mechanics they added. This feels like pen and paper. You go to a dungeon lets say the temple in gilded vale. You know you have 2 rests and you have to plan your adventure so that it is enough. I think camping supplies limitation add more to the difficulty on PoD than the extra stas creatures have. Screw the loot. Best moment in a dungeon is when you find an extra supplies and you can sleep and take them. Also if you fail to finish the dungeon and you need to come back you get the proper punishment. Especially painful in endless path of nua