Divinity: Original Sin

[Volourn]

"for old-school players like me"

 

This game isn't old skool. Anyone who actually played and understood old skool games would know. Old skool is more than simply 'turn absed combat'. The fact it uses RPS tod etermine dialogue outcomes makes it IMPOSSIBLE for it to be old skool. And, the game does handhold. I mean, the games hands out 'popup advice' like candy  even now when I'm level 10. HOLY MOLY! If I hadn't learn to play the game already don't you think i'd never have made it to level 10, stupid game.

 

Anyone who thinks the game is hard  is an idiot. The game isn't hard. Not even close.

[Bryy]

Sadly for you, yes, D:OS combat *is* better than Banner Saga.

You take that back.

[Tigranes]

There's really no comparison. BS was designed to have a simpler and more limited set of moving parts, like a well composed puzzle with a very finite set of possibilities that you manipulate with tight margins. DOS is a traditional 'here's a lot of stuff you can do and they can do too, go all out' RPG system which is sufficiently unique to be its own thing and also present a number of enjoyable styles.

[Malcador]

Sorry, dude, but try it with more reason and at least more information next time. Being offensive and smart-alecky doesn't make your statments any more valid.

Kind of rich to read this after your post. Now that the game is on GOG, should be a matter of time before it's on a decent sale.

[nipsen]

..Had to play it.. for some ten hours or so, until I got around to some quests progressing a bit.. spent a long while micromanaging things, moving around random objects one by one to find switches. Played rock-paper-scissors with myself 10 times each argument. At some point the guards decided I was strong enough to be let out of the city gates. Which I wasn't. By some... fifteen levels or so. Unless I moved around the orcs (that were strong enough to level the city at any point), and then I could progress a bit further. Until I found a door I couldn't get through (your quest-flag is in a different castle), that I couldn't lockpick (you should have chosen skullduggery instead of airyanism three levels earlier!), turned back, and got slaughtered again.

 

I'm sure you're actually supposed to be grinding undead at some direction of the compass somewhere, and then run around investigating your first quest - which seemingly is a tutorial quest, but really is the main quest - once in a while in between the looting and leveling. But I don't think I care enough to try again. This was a waste of time.

[Hassat Hunter]

I will look forward to you being slaugthered, confused and lost in PoE, nipsen

 

Cyseal is Athkatlala (or something, still not sure how to write it) Light. I do expect PoE to have a similar thing. Many quests, many areas to go. Many enemies that totally pound you to kingdom come rather than scale to your level.

Good times, good times.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Hassat Hunter

[sorophx]

Sorry, dude, but try it with more reason and at least more information next time. Being offensive and smart-alecky doesn't make your statments any more valid.

there's a lot of misunderstanding in this thread. it's caused by this mass psychosis around this game, no doubt.

 

why would you say my opinion is not valid? what makes you the judge?

 

it's valid to me, obviously, because I base it on my observations. if I see something I don't like I don't see a point in spending any more time on it. 

 

I came into this thread to ask for other people's opinions on what makes this game so good, what is it that I can't see. and mostly I've been getting hate back, with little facts and a lot of "your opinion is less valid than mine" crap. kind of proves my point, doesn't it?

[Hassat Hunter]

Your observations however are based on 30 minutes of Youtube video of... what?

We however base it on countless tens of hours of gameplay.

 

Who's more credible would you say?

 

Would KOTOR2 would be good based on Peragus? Deus Ex on Liberty Island? BG2 on Irenicus Dungeon? PS:T on the morgue?

If all these are "no" then you would see why we disregard your "I saw some intro stuff on Youtube" comment. If the answer is "yes" well... then I am standing here wondering what kind of weird tastes you have...

[Tigranes]

..Had to play it.. for some ten hours or so, until I got around to some quests progressing a bit.. spent a long while micromanaging things, moving around random objects one by one to find switches. Played rock-paper-scissors with myself 10 times each argument. At some point the guards decided I was strong enough to be let out of the city gates. Which I wasn't. By some... fifteen levels or so. Unless I moved around the orcs (that were strong enough to level the city at any point), and then I could progress a bit further. Until I found a door I couldn't get through (your quest-flag is in a different castle), that I couldn't lockpick (you should have chosen skullduggery instead of airyanism three levels earlier!), turned back, and got slaughtered again.

 

I'm sure you're actually supposed to be grinding undead at some direction of the compass somewhere, and then run around investigating your first quest - which seemingly is a tutorial quest, but really is the main quest - once in a while in between the looting and leveling. But I don't think I care enough to try again. This was a waste of time.

 

You're actually only 2 or 3 levels not ready to get out that particular gate. There are 3 other exits out of the town. Try the 'west' gate from actual Cyseal (not the harbour). Also there's a lot of XP to be gained within the walls. Also there are very few locked doors that you can't unlock or bash or teleport past in this game. There is also no grinding, only a limited number of non-respawning, hand-placed set piece encounters. 

 

If you don't want to try again, oh well. But it's all things you'd have found out yourself with a little more time.

[Bryy]

Everyone seems to be getting ridiculously low frame rates today.

[ManifestedISO]

Asking for people's opinions--no, that ain't how it began. You said this game is stupid and you'll never buy it, here's why ... 

 

Thought you were normally reasonably cogent, but not in this thread. 

[Volourn]

"Cyseal is Athkatlala (or something, still not sure how to write it) Light."

 

No, it isn't. Not even in the same stratosphere.

 

" Many enemies that totally pound you to kingdom come rather than scale to your level."

 

Pound you? The game isn't hard.  And, the fact that if you go the 'wrong way' and face off with enemies well aboe your level doesn't make it hard. It makes it linear. Why would you go through the game with level 6 monsters when you can go and face off with level 3 monsters sicne that's exactly where the game wants you to go?

[licketysplit]

"This game stomps a mud hole in the lazy design of Baldur's Gate 2"

 

"It is so superior in narrative and combat design than any Baldur's Gate game, it simply blows my mind"

 

"I can talk to animals. Top that, Baldur's Gate!"

[sorophx]

Asking for people's opinions--no, that ain't how it began. You said this game is stupid and you'll never buy it, here's why ... 

no, that's not how it began either. I said the game looked poor (visual design, UI, combat, writing), so I was probably missing something that one wouldn't see unless he played the game for a couple of hours (and I'd like to add that if a game takes many hours of playing to appreciate it's not a very good game to begin with; now that I think about it, Fallout 2 isn't a very good game: it's all filler areas disconnected from each other, with some very good NPC encounters and a lot of mindless combat - today I wouldn't give Fallout 2 a a single chance).

 

so the argument that it's not enough to play it for 30 minutes to appreciate simply proves my point; that the game's design is far from stellar, it's very uneven, and it takes digging to get to the good parts. well, I don't have time for that, so I won't buy it.

 

that is what I said, what followed was something that completely missed my point, though, saying that I couldn't tell an old school RPG from a dog turd, that my opinions aren't valid, I would assume because I don't like all the "kewl" RPGs so I'm clearly "not in the club" or something.

 

I mean, come on, arguments like, "it's an old school RPG, but it's ok that it has a minimap and handholds you, because obviously games like NWN, WoW and Skyrim etc. proved that minimaps work, so why not include them" - no one sees the flaw in this kind of logic?

 

man, I could go on and on, but I see it's pointless, most people here like this game so much they get very defensive when I try to criticize some aspects of it that are on the surface. as if it was they who made this game. 

 

and then I get called out for "lacking perspective", "play the game for 20 or so hours first". hey, wake up call: I'm not writing a review, this is a first-impressions discussion

[HoonDing]

ITT: stop disliking what I like.

[BruceVC]

 

Asking for people's opinions--no, that ain't how it began. You said this game is stupid and you'll never buy it, here's why ... 

no, that's not how it began either. I said the game looked poor (visual design, UI, combat, writing), so I was probably missing something that one wouldn't see unless he played the game for a couple of hours (and I'd like to add that if a game takes many hours of playing to appreciate it's not a very good game to begin with; now that I think about it, Fallout 2 isn't a very good game: it's all filler areas disconnected from each other, with some very good NPC encounters and a lot of mindless combat - today I wouldn't give Fallout 2 a a single chance).

 

so the argument that it's not enough to play it for 30 minutes to appreciate simply proves my point; that the game's design is far from stellar, it's very uneven, and it takes digging to get to the good parts. well, I don't have time for that, so I won't buy it.

 

that is what I said, what followed was something that completely missed my point, though, saying that I couldn't tell an old school RPG from a dog turd, that my opinions aren't valid, I would assume because I don't like all the "kewl" RPGs so I'm clearly "not in the club" or something.

 

I mean, come on, arguments like, "it's an old school RPG, but it's ok that it has a minimap and handholds you, because obviously games like NWN, WoW and Skyrim etc. proved that minimaps work, so why not include them" - no one sees the flaw in this kind of logic?

 

man, I could go on and on, but I see it's pointless, most people here like this game so much they get very defensive when I try to criticize some aspects of it that are on the surface. as if it was they who made this game. 

 

and then I get called out for "lacking perspective", "play the game for 20 or so hours first". hey, wake up call: I'm not writing a review, this is a first-impressions discussion

 

 

Sorophx I'm going to try to explain something to you because you seem to misunderstanding why people are criticizing you and you seem to feel you are the victim

 

There are people who have played DO:S for dozens of hours and really can comment on what's good and bad about the game. You formulated a dismissive view of the game based on a video. You can deny this or not but this is what is considered an uninformed view of something. When this was pointed out you become defensive.

 

The so called "fanboy" support of this game is from people who have an informed opinion of the game, you are not debating from this perspective. In life its good to sometimes admit you are wrong about a topic, it doesn't make you weak or make future comments less relevant. But your continued debating around this topic has just made you sound silly

 

End of the day you cannot really comment on the game and all its flaws until you have personally played it

Edited July 15, 2014 by BruceVC

[nipsen]

 

Pound you? The game isn't hard.  And, the fact that if you go the 'wrong way' and face off with enemies well aboe your level doesn't make it hard. It makes it linear. Why would you go through the game with level 6 monsters when you can go and face off with level 3 monsters sicne that's exactly where the game wants you to go?

..if the game also told you approximately in which direction you /were/ supposed to be going, that would probably be a start. Wouldn't make it much of a better design, but at least you wouldn't be wasting your time trying to figure out the metagame.

 

Since someone mentioned Fallout 2. In Fallout and Fallout 2, they did a few specific things to avoid scenarios like what you get in D:OS.

1. Make encounters progressively difficult outwards in a circle from your starting point. Generally, the longer the distance away from the safety of the vault or the village, the more difficult battles.

2. Explain in some way on beforehand that difficult encounters are either extremely difficult, and that you probably need to come back later. Or use a different trick. Khan camp, for example. (Note that "trick" doesn't mean: you need to sell loot and buy a specific spell and disposable one-shot lockpicks that cost a fortune).

3. Directions. In D:OS, I ran into several examples of people pointing me at a landmark I have heard mentioned before -- but which isn't marked on my map, which the quest-giver doesn't mark on my map, and where I literally have no idea where can be reached from. I've accepted several quests that simply are not possible to find without trial and error.

4. Gear with stat-requirements, not randomly generated awesomeloot with level penalties.. from chests in areas you were /supposed/ to reach at a later level..

 

It's just very convoluted, and extremely poor design. If you had a game-master making a game like this for you, he or she would be the kind that would flip the table and shove you out of the room if you suggested that perhaps... not killing off half the party in a random self-loading bear-trap on the way to the dungeon would be a more ideal approach.

 

 

 

so the argument that it's not enough to play it for 30 minutes to appreciate simply proves my point; 

Actually, the first 30 minutes of the game makes sense (which probably accounts for the relatively good reviews) because of the linear tutorial level. That is.. if you abandon your pursuit of what seems to be your entire reason for being in Cyseal in favor (he's right there! If he can't teleport, he's toast!) of potential loot. Then you're teleported out a distance away into the fog, wondering what exactly happened in between the two locations in the time you were away. The game tends to give you these tremendously obtuse popups insisting that you can click the mouse-button on both the left and the right sides, for example. Explanations for what is going on with the narrative, if anything, are.. not exactly as careful as that.

 

10 hours later, and you're still running into the same problem.

 

I suppose it's less of a problem if you've played the game 20 times before and know what's going on (then you would probably know of a way to disable the popups as well). If you know where the quests are anyway, and don't really need to mark the map with custom flags -- which you can't really use for anything but confirming that "yes, I am now back at a point I have been before".

 

But if you don't have the metaknowledge, it's pretty confusing. Much more confusing than BG1/2. Specially since you kind of suspect over and over again that if you didn't trigger a quest-state at some very specific point on your path, the game-world will stand still forever. (...or as the D:OS writers would have said it: "The vast expanse of Wooooo and abstract terms will be obscurified from mortal eyes as gods die and lay claim to heavenly bodies and angels and demons burn trails freely on the Earth's crispy but soft crust, I would really like a cracker, what was I talking about again, just ship it, ship itttttt?!!?!!!").

 

Imagine something like New Reno in Fallout 2 - if none of the npcs in any areas know how to explain where anything else is (i.e., the ones who wrote the quests didn't know what the map would look like or where the NPCs were standing, nor made any attempt to circumvent that problem by writing relative references such as: north of the citadel. To the east of the convent. The western beach. Ask this person, find it past this building-- follow the bloody pixie-dust trail, etc). And if all the quests in New Reno were made to look "free" and non-linear by forcing you to zig-zag the map approximately three hundred times until you've collected all the critical items needed in order to "progress" the quest - at one specific point - that you don't know where actually is triggered. You discover that you've triggered the quest-flag by pursuing something else somewhere else.

 

It would be something like this: "you can't become a made man with the Wrights before you've concluded all of Renesco's sidequests, since he is potentially dead after the ending of said quest, but the game won't tell you that or even attempt to explain this in a non-metagame way".  It'd be completely uninteresting.

 

I think my favorite bad design hook-off with D:OS is the way the conversations actually pretty often force you into a critical confrontation that leads to a battle (like the guards at the beginning - "You deserve to be punched in the face") - and you really have no way of knowing that suddenly the game takes you literally, and adds spears and axes, so you murder the bastards and that's that. But then later - you can accuse people of murder, admit to stealing their house off the foundations, try to have them arrested, threaten the captain of the guard -- and the game actually requires you to do it to progress the quest. Which this time /doesn't/ lead to a confrontation. In fact, these guys couldn't care less as long as you don't pilfer the cheeze three inches from the guard's nose. Apparently pickpocketing in Cyseal is an arcane art, while stealing people's houses off the foundation is easy and can be done by anyone. The game has no way of explaining any of that.

 

And even the hilariously 1980's pre-Sierra design with the dialogue trees recurring for every single character in the game-world: "1. tell me about yourself. 2. about the subject you seem to be having more information about. 3. tell me gossip, if implemented. 4. whosaprettybird" --- doesn't actually prevent the designers and writers from telling you critical information when you need it.

 

Just try to wrap your head around that. The dialogue sequences in the game are one step removed from being narrated debugging info -- and the game is nevertheless convoluted and impossible to understand. Not because the quests are complex, but because they are contrived and obscure.

[Hassat Hunter]

so the argument that it's not enough to play it for 30 minutes to appreciate simply proves my point; that the game's design is far from stellar, it's very uneven, and it takes digging to get to the good parts. well, I don't have time for that, so I won't buy it.

Name ANY RPG which first 30minutes are stellar and exactly a good reflection of it's entire gameplay.

I mean "skip Peragus", "Skip Irenicus Dungeon"... heh.

 

Wait, you can't... since that's kind of the staple of RPG's?

Well, I rest my case... you're trolling here, and you know it. Can't be that ignorant about RPG's in general.

 

@ nipsen;

I'm sorry your hand wasn't hold out for you and big flashing arrows pointed you in the direction to go rather than go explore. I wonder how you would have done BG1, seeing how there are devestating encounters pretty much on the first map, only getting worse further you go.

 

Also, level is more a guideline... I left the 4's to when I was 6 because I found it difficult, but the lvl 6 orcs/cave I went at at 4 because I found it easier.

And since Beta they made it a lot easier to point out where to go once you're done in Cyseal. What with all guards pointing out you're too strong and only a single open gate being present. It's guiding... can't blame them for you not noticing :/

 

1. Done... all the difficult bosses are progressively away from Cyseal in all directions. The easier foes being surrounding the city. That's one wish granted!

2. And how would you propose that. If you're over your head, you can flee, and that's a good indication to maybe try again later instead. Or give it another shot. You can easily win every battle in Cyseal's map at level 2 if you know what you're doing after all.

3. Examples, please.

4. I'm in agreement here.

 

Pretty sure you can't disable the tutorial popups on a new game. An option greatly asked/wished for surely.

If you're constantly wondering if you hit a bug, something went wrong, instead of simply going along with it... you're probably doing it wrong. It seems more worries of your own than actual impact on the game. Clear your mind of it. If you would open up a savegame editor after each little thing just to check if it's properly recorded that's a good way to go clinically insane. And what for I wonder...

 

Welcome to RPG... where what you say has effect on the game. All "combat" options are super-duper clear. If not, well, seems the current generation of RPG where combat is totally flagged with icons and what-not and 'are you sure' etc. just clouded your judgment of what a RPG could use to be. One where you need to check your words, choices can have effects you may not like and all that good stuff of old we almost forgot existed in a RPG.

It makes me sad to hear this as con rather than big major freaking YAY. PoE definitely will build on this aswell as far as I hear...

you can accuse people of murder, admit to stealing their house off the foundations, try to have them arrested, threaten the captain of the guard -- and the game actually requires you to do it to progress the quest.

Nope, it doesn't. There are other ways.

 

Beats having each and every NPC just having a single line of dialogue repeated infinitive if clicked at. See; all modern RPG's, including some of my favorite like KOTOR2.

 

A lot of people don't have this problem. Maybe if you try less to imagine everything as being pre-defined broken (for some reason) instead roll with it and experience... it's not that broken as you imagine. Seeing how you list something as 'required' while it's not required at all, some quests might be more complex than you think

 

But whatever floats everyone's boat, I'm not forcing you to like the game. Just noting that in most likelyhood all complains here will flow over into PoE, since it has the same old-school design. And I would suggest getting back with the old flow again rather than demanding handholding, streamlining and everything on a platter, or PoE will probably dissapoint you more than you can imagine. BG2 was far less forgiving than this game is. And I hope PoE doesn't throws that away... if it does we atleast got 1 good RPG still, but I'm not satisfied with just 1! XD

[Enoch]

As somebody who is just exploring Cyseal for the first time, I could really do without the RPG ritual of looking inside every barrel, box, and woodpile to find inventory-filler.  It'd be a lot more fun if all that was closed off and the minor loot provided in more sensible ways.  Then I could focus on exploration and talking to the important NPCs (read: chickens). 

 

(Also, I really should've saved before trying my hand at grave-robbing.)

[pmp10]

I came into this thread to ask for other people's opinions on what makes this game so good, what is it that I can't see. and mostly I've been getting hate back, with little facts and a lot of "your opinion is less valid than mine" crap. kind of proves my point, doesn't it?

 

Well no.

This is either a logical discussion on flaws/merits of DoS or a competition in conversational manners.

If you are having both then winning the latter doesn't automatically make you the victor of the former.

 

That said this game has some major flaws that fans like to ignore but you certainly didn't come close to pointing them out.

[sorophx]

for god's sake, that's not what I was doing... just forget it 

[Gfted1]

Thou must not speak negatively about the Golden Child de jour.

[Llyranor]

I'm not even sure what/why you're trying to argue. You're not going to convince anyone to hate the game based on your 'first impressions' from a video vs people who have actually played it for hours already. You don't have to buy the game or like it, but this back-and-forth seems to lack a point. What ARE you trying to argue? 'Guys, don't buy the game, I've seen a video and it's not all that!' 'Guys, stop liking the game that you're already playing/enjoying, because of x reasons from some video'. It's nice that you expressed your opinion and all that, but I'm not sure there's enough material to turn it into a debate.

 

People can like the game and still recognize its flaws. The hud IS pretty basic and unoriginal. I can't say it's actually bothered me at all aside from having to press a button to switch between toolbars at the bottom of the screen. The combat has a few occasional interface issues where it's sometimes not as precise as it should be, but that hasn't really affected how much fun/enjoyment I've derived from it. The lack of handholding is a plus. I've had a lot of fun exploring the first map, and never really got lost - there was always something I could be doing/exploring. I can't attest to how good or bad the writing/dialogue is, since I've been playing it coop and only half-paying attention to it!

 

At the end of the day, for me it's been a great party-based turn-based CRPG (with cool optional online coop) with some neat world interactivity and exploration. If those aspects appeal to you, the flaws are completely negligeable. If they don't, and you just want to focus on the negatives, then that's fine too. It's just not as great a debate topic as you think it might be given that one side hasn't actually played the game.

[Amentep]

I'm not even sure what/why you're trying to argue.

In post #107, Sophrox states "I'm probably missing something very important..." which from further statements he's made was his appeal, essentially, to tell him what about the game is it people like.

 

In post #108 he was asked why he didn't like what he'd seen of the game.

 

In post #115 he clarified what he'd seen that he didn't like

 

After this, instead of being about why it is that people like the game and/or countering his views with evidence from the game, the discussion seemed to center on how Sophrox's was wrong to dislike an RPGs if he didn't play it for 20+ hours.

 

At least that's what I got out of it. Hope this helps.

 

Fast forward to the train wreck that was dragon age 2... Did you ever try casting a fire ball? I've blocked out most of my memories of that game, but the damage was so low, I almost think it HEALED my enemies.

I'm in chapter 2 right now with a mage character. My fireball kills the minor enemies, damages a decent amount the more healthy foes and send a lot of those off their feet. Boss characters seem to have high fire resistance or high ice resistance (but not often both). I'm not on a hard difficulty though, so maybe that matters a lot.

[Nonek]

There are downsides to the game but i'd say they're very subjective, the WOW art design realy stands out in comparison to the first games semi realistic depiction, but stylisation has its upsides. I would say that they need two more character models, a muscular female (Cory Everson style) and a more athletic and slimmed down male.

 

The humour is very "European" and was throughout all of the Divinity games, some may not care for this, others may like it. Like Bioware's sub par Joss Whedon lines it's all a matter of taste, personally I prefer more raucous or complicated witticism's.

 

The turn based combat is one of the greatest strengths of the game, but if one prefers RTwP then that's a pity, because the combat system allows so much to be attempted and successfully executed that it really does delight.

 

Environmental interaction is probably the most welcome return for myself, this feature has been abandoned for so long and any hint of it been hounded away by those whom want just a "core" experience, that its inclusion here is almost remarkable. Hopefully more games will push the boundary and make the leap back to when games were advancing rather than degenerating. It adds so much content and life.

 

The lack of a day/night cycle and npc schedules is a feature that I miss, but hopefully it may be added at some point as Larian seems to be intent on expanding and adding to the game.

 

Unfortunately the late game feels a little rushed, a bit more by the numbers than the glorious repast of opportunity we are faced with when exploring in Cyseal.

 

The writing is functional and about on par with Bioware, though not quite as nonsensical, and the narrative generally works but doesn't really feature as a main point of the game. What Obsidian could do with this engine and their dialogue tools is a thought that has me salivating.

 

I'm probably missing a lot of points but all told this is what stands out for me Sorophx, your own views are equally as valid however. I would say however that Larian have humiliated many of the recent AAA games i've played from far more experienced and large publishers and developers, hopefully this will spur others into including more features, fun, and content into their games rather than following the trend of degeneration.

 

Edit: It's not the BEST GAME EVAH! It's a very good game in my opinion, and a herald of better times for our chosen genre hopefully.

Edited July 15, 2014 by Nonek