Common pitfalls of CRPG games to avoid

[TrashMan]

1. Forgetting to balance enchantments.

 

You have your two-handed weapon, 1h weapon & shield and dual wielding 1h weapons options. Which ones ill you go for? In most CRPG's you'd go for the last two. Why?

 

Because the designers seem to forget that TWO magical items equals TWICE the magical enchantments, hence why such combos are almost always vastly superior to a 2h weapon.

 

You have a paralisis enchantment on that big 2H axe? That's nice, I got a paralisyis enchantment on my 1h sword and a blindness enchantment on my 1h mace. I deal 2(3?) damage types and have twice the chance to incapacitate you.

What's that? But you do more damage 2d6 +5 fire damage? Not bad. I do 1d8+5 fire and 1d6+5 ice damage. Opps. Looks like you underperform there too.

 

 

 

2. Loot/magic obsession.

 

Finding loot is part of a CRPG charm. But it's not waht a CRPG should be about. It's not why we remember great fnatasy stories. Your average CRPG protagonists goes trough magical items faster than a starving man trough food. Magical items constantly discarded, used for 5 minutes untill a better weapon comes along.

Long before the end of the game, every single inventory slot is filled with magical items. By the end, a character would cause a magic detector to explode. She sheer magniute of magical energy radiated over the hoards of legendary/epic items that the world hasn't seen in millenia would be OVER 9000!!!

 

Magic and magical items are overused. When everything is magical, nothing is. Magic itself loses part of it's charm and "oomph". Powerful magical items are ntohing but trinkets to be discarded.

 

When you think of Aragorn - was every single thing he carried magical? Did it have to be? Do characters in fantasy storeis switch equipment every 5 minutes? No, they find something nice and stick with it.

 

It's one of the reasons I loved BG1 atmosphere so much. It felt so real. A qualtiy steel weapon was viable even at end game. You didn't finish the game with everything being a magical +5,+10 uber-item.

 

 

3. if less is more, more is less?

 

Padding the game length with unnecessary, repettiive fight. Every road will have bandits. Or hostile wildlife with no sense of self-perserveation. And they will respawn.

Sometimes entire game sections will be nothing more than padding (looking at you FF) /fillers.

Because clearly, long game = automaticly better game. Right? Right?

[IndiraLightfoot]

-Too many have far too even pacing to them. Similar verses and short choruses (boss fights). There shouldn't be any rhythm or pace at all. It should have twists and turns and tonnes of small surprises (and no, I don't mean silly easter-eggs referring to some old computer game or a movie)

-Boring talent trees and too few character development options. These issues should be killed with fire and desolved in the strongest acid available

-Monsters and enemies don't fit their environment, they don't make sense, ecologically, socially or culturally.

-The stories are on a backburner until the next cutscene. I love games where they manage to make the entire setting and everything you do part of making the story as you go along.

-For CRPGs, it's the non-combat skills that usually get the short end of the stick, or no stick at all.

-Mid-game often feels like filling towards some far-off ending. The ideal would be that every minute in the game feels meaningful.

-Late game, and end game, is usually rushed and a let down.

Edited February 5, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Nonek]

Elves.

[teknoman2]

on the 2, i'd say it is sometimes also a problem with the game's balancing. after a certain point in IWD2 enemies have +15, +16... +26 to their attack, and the best non magical gear can at most raise your AC to 22, meaning you always get hit. the only thing you can do, is hope to find a +5 armor, a +5 shield, a +5 ring of protection (and these stuff dont even exist in the game), just to limit the enemy chance to hit by 30-40%. if the combat system is designed in a way that only the absolutelly highest quality legendary magical items can offer any chance to avoid a hit, then in order to give you a chance, they need to overload the game with impossibly powerfull items

Edited February 5, 2014 by teknoman2

[FlintlockJazz]

I agree with pretty much everything said so far.  The weapons thing in particular, two-handed are often made slow to 'compensate' for their extra damage, but since you are already giving up a shield or extra weapon already then there should be no need (and two handers weren't slow anyway, not swords anyway).  I'd also like to point out that weapon and shield shouldn't be gimped either like it seems to be in many games, and I do not like being made to specialise to one of those three anyway, prefer when you are more free to switch between those styles instead.

[TrashMan]

To be honest, sometimes I feel classes have talens and skills just to have something. In many cases rigid classes seems almost..restricting.

 

Call me a heretic, but honestly, I'd rather do away with fixed classes and have skills anyone can learn (where it makes sense) and you can specialize in a class if you fit the requrement.

 

To help you visualize, think of it as having no classes at hte benining (or beingin classes are nothing more than starter skill packages), like in Skyrim, but if you fit specific requirements you can specilize, kinda like prestige classes. THEN you get special, unique powers/feats)

[Messier-31]

Monks.

[FlintlockJazz]

To be honest, sometimes I feel classes have talens and skills just to have something. In many cases rigid classes seems almost..restricting.

 

Call me a heretic, but honestly, I'd rather do away with fixed classes and have skills anyone can learn (where it makes sense) and you can specialize in a class if you fit the requrement.

 

To help you visualize, think of it as having no classes at hte benining (or beingin classes are nothing more than starter skill packages), like in Skyrim, but if you fit specific requirements you can specilize, kinda like prestige classes. THEN you get special, unique powers/feats)

Yeah, I would have liked that approach myself, unfortunately as they billed this as the spiritual successor to the IE games there are many who would consider having classes as part of that.  There are many things I have issues with regarding classes and levels, but I guess many others like their ease of use (or ease of abuse in some cases).  Damn other people...

 

Monks.

Amen. 

[JFSOCC]

I think tunnel vision is a risk on any  project.

[Sarex]

2. Loot/magic obsession.

 

Finding loot is part of a CRPG charm. But it's not waht a CRPG should be about. It's not why we remember great fnatasy stories. Your average CRPG protagonists goes trough magical items faster than a starving man trough food. Magical items constantly discarded, used for 5 minutes untill a better weapon comes along.

Long before the end of the game, every single inventory slot is filled with magical items. By the end, a character would cause a magic detector to explode. She sheer magniute of magical energy radiated over the hoards of legendary/epic items that the world hasn't seen in millenia would be OVER 9000!!!

 

Magic and magical items are overused. When everything is magical, nothing is. Magic itself loses part of it's charm and "oomph". Powerful magical items are ntohing but trinkets to be discarded.

 

When you think of Aragorn - was every single thing he carried magical? Did it have to be? Do characters in fantasy storeis switch equipment every 5 minutes? No, they find something nice and stick with it.

 

It's one of the reasons I loved BG1 atmosphere so much. It felt so real. A qualtiy steel weapon was viable even at end game. You didn't finish the game with everything being a magical +5,+10 uber-item.

 

I disagree on this, very much so. It would make for a really boring game. Variety is good thing, as can be seen from BG2 which is the more popular game.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Sarex

[rjshae]

Settlements that feel devoid of life.

 

I don't enjoy the experience of walking into a city that is inhabited by a handful of cardboard cutout characters and has only a few working doors. I'd rather find a ruined, empty city inhabited only by beasts.

[teknoman2]

 

2. Loot/magic obsession.

 

Finding loot is part of a CRPG charm. But it's not waht a CRPG should be about. It's not why we remember great fnatasy stories. Your average CRPG protagonists goes trough magical items faster than a starving man trough food. Magical items constantly discarded, used for 5 minutes untill a better weapon comes along.

Long before the end of the game, every single inventory slot is filled with magical items. By the end, a character would cause a magic detector to explode. She sheer magniute of magical energy radiated over the hoards of legendary/epic items that the world hasn't seen in millenia would be OVER 9000!!!

 

Magic and magical items are overused. When everything is magical, nothing is. Magic itself loses part of it's charm and "oomph". Powerful magical items are ntohing but trinkets to be discarded.

 

When you think of Aragorn - was every single thing he carried magical? Did it have to be? Do characters in fantasy storeis switch equipment every 5 minutes? No, they find something nice and stick with it.

 

It's one of the reasons I loved BG1 atmosphere so much. It felt so real. A qualtiy steel weapon was viable even at end game. You didn't finish the game with everything being a magical +5,+10 uber-item.

 

I disagree on this, very much so. It would make for a really boring game. Variety is good thing, as can be seen from BG2 which is the more popular game.

 

variety is good. overloading the game with junk items is bad

like in BG2 that you mention, from the start you can find really nice looking stuff in shops, but by the time you can afford them, you have already found better items in the areas you visited and are left with the question: why should anyone have any reason to buy this? or certain overpriced stuff in adventurer's mart that simply had nothing to offer for the money you had to spend

if to get the money you need in order to buy a +2 sword, requires you to pass through a dungeon in which you find +3 weapons for the entire party, the existence of the +2 sword is meaningless. the designers should have made that sword +3 with some special ability that would rival the one you found, giving you a reason to consider buying it and thus creating variety. also if you have the "sniper's crossbow" (a heavy crossbow that gives +3 to attack, +4 to damage and no specials) cost 30k, then you have the no name heavy crossbow +4 that gives +4 to attack +6 to damage for 21k in the same shop, in a game that has no requirements for the equipment, is anyone going to consider buying the first? it would be even worse if that guardian you had to kill in order to get where the shop is had a heavy crossbow +5 hand placed among the loot

Edited February 5, 2014 by teknoman2

[Oneiromancer]

 

2. Loot/magic obsession.

 

Finding loot is part of a CRPG charm. But it's not waht a CRPG should be about. It's not why we remember great fnatasy stories. Your average CRPG protagonists goes trough magical items faster than a starving man trough food. Magical items constantly discarded, used for 5 minutes untill a better weapon comes along.

Long before the end of the game, every single inventory slot is filled with magical items. By the end, a character would cause a magic detector to explode. She sheer magniute of magical energy radiated over the hoards of legendary/epic items that the world hasn't seen in millenia would be OVER 9000!!!

 

Magic and magical items are overused. When everything is magical, nothing is. Magic itself loses part of it's charm and "oomph". Powerful magical items are ntohing but trinkets to be discarded.

 

When you think of Aragorn - was every single thing he carried magical? Did it have to be? Do characters in fantasy storeis switch equipment every 5 minutes? No, they find something nice and stick with it.

 

It's one of the reasons I loved BG1 atmosphere so much. It felt so real. A qualtiy steel weapon was viable even at end game. You didn't finish the game with everything being a magical +5,+10 uber-item.

 

I disagree on this, very much so. It would make for a really boring game. Variety is good thing, as can be seen from BG2 which is the more popular game.

 

 

Variety =/= Quantity

 

If magical items (especially powerful one) are too common there's a huge risk of completely killing the excitement of finding them,  a math game in which you periodically change your sword with one with a slightily higher bonus.

 

 

 

2. Loot/magic obsession.

 

Finding loot is part of a CRPG charm. But it's not waht a CRPG should be about. It's not why we remember great fnatasy stories. Your average CRPG protagonists goes trough magical items faster than a starving man trough food. Magical items constantly discarded, used for 5 minutes untill a better weapon comes along.

Long before the end of the game, every single inventory slot is filled with magical items. By the end, a character would cause a magic detector to explode. She sheer magniute of magical energy radiated over the hoards of legendary/epic items that the world hasn't seen in millenia would be OVER 9000!!!

 

Magic and magical items are overused. When everything is magical, nothing is. Magic itself loses part of it's charm and "oomph". Powerful magical items are ntohing but trinkets to be discarded.

 

When you think of Aragorn - was every single thing he carried magical? Did it have to be? Do characters in fantasy storeis switch equipment every 5 minutes? No, they find something nice and stick with it.

 

It's one of the reasons I loved BG1 atmosphere so much. It felt so real. A qualtiy steel weapon was viable even at end game. You didn't finish the game with everything being a magical +5,+10 uber-item.

 

I disagree on this, very much so. It would make for a really boring game. Variety is good thing, as can be seen from BG2 which is the more popular game.

 

variety is good. overloading the game with junk items is bad

like in BG2 that you mention, from the start you can find really nice looking stuff in shops, but by the time you can afford them, you have already found better items in the areas you visited and are left with the question: why should anyone have any reason to buy this? or certain overpriced stuff in adventurer's mart that simply had nothing to offer for the money you had to spend

if to get the money you need in order to buy a +2 sword, requires you to pass through a dungeon in which you find +3 weapons for the entire party, the existence of the +2 sword is meaningless. the designers should have made that sword +3 with some special ability that would rival the one you found, giving you a reason to consider buying it and thus creating variety. also if you have the "sniper's crossbow" (a heavy crossbow that gives +3 to attack, +4 to damage and no specials) cost 30k, then you have the no name heavy crossbow +4 that gives +4 to attack +6 to damage for 21k in the same shop, in a game that has no requirements for the equipment, is anyone going to consider buying the first? it would be even worse if that guardian you had to kill in order to get where the shop is had a heavy crossbow +5 hand placed among the loot

 

 

It was especially bad in Throne of Bhaal with shopkeepers selling magical artifacts like they were peanuts... It felt more like I was playing fantasy Dragon Ball Z than anything but that's D&D epic levels for you.

[Yonjuro]

...

-Late game, and end game, is usually rushed and a let down.

 

 Just to underline this one: BG1 has a one liner for an ending (something like 'Sarevok has fallen') and then he disintegrates and the credits roll. Story telling doesn't work that way; there needs to be an ending.

[Sir Chaox]

 

...

-Late game, and end game, is usually rushed and a let down.

 

 Just to underline this one: BG1 has a one liner for an ending (something like 'Sarevok has fallen') and then he disintegrates and the credits roll. Story telling doesn't work that way; there needs to be an ending.

 

 

I totally agree with what Indira said, and I get what you are generally saying Yonjuro (in general, I would agree with you), but I think BG1's ending was sufficient. The game was about discovering your origins, which you learn by the end. Defeating Sarevok and ending with that cutscene of how many more half-brothers and half-sisters (how many more potential Sarevoks) are out in the world just leaves everything open for a sequel; perhaps they didn't know exactly what it would entail, so they left out details, which I think is fine. I honestly don't know how else they could have ended that game without disrupting the feeling that things have only just begun for the PC.

 

Having said that, I wouldn't mind if PE ended similarly to BG1, in the way that it avoids giving details as to what happens to the major characters/companions (some of which are likely to be included in the next game), as their tale may not be complete yet. Denouement on what happens to the various places you've visited based on your choices could be appropriate, assuming the next game takes place in a different locale. Regardless, I am expecting some kind of denouement in PE but would not mind if it is kept light.

[Karkarov]

Well my concerns...

 

1: Totally agree on balance.  Playing MMX recently really enforces this.  I have a character I switched to duel wielding when I found a relic sword even though I started him as a two hander character.  Eventually I found a relic two hand sword and tried to switch back only to fine out the damage/power difference was huge.  I literally did like 25-30% more damage if both my duel wield weapons hit versus the two hander and with how blocks/missing works duel wielding is better as well because it is rare for both swords to fail to connect.  Where as with the two hander if I miss or get blocked that's it, no second try for partial damage.  Duel wielding is flat better unless you have a bad ass two hander and junk one handers.  I definitely hope they avoid this sort of nonsense in Eternity.

 

2: Loot..... well sorta maybe.  I agree BG2 went too monty haul especially in the expansion.  BG1 though?  Way too sparse.  Seriously if you were a say.... long sword specialist you could find Varscona like 4 hours into the game and guess what?  It was the best long sword in the game.  I think they need to find a happy middle ground.  I shouldn't be changing my gear dungeon to dungeon but I shouldn't only be upgrading my weapon twice for the whole game either.

 

3: Ending/pacing....  We know this is meant to have a sequel.  It is absolutely fine if the game does not "end" but simply cuts and says "and now their adventure REALLY began!" aka like Mass Effect 1, BG 1, etc etc.  The story of game 1 needs to end, but the over arching plot needs to be unresolved you feel me~??!?!?!?  That said I hope they can build it up like the fights from those previously two mentioned games.  Both of those battles were against antagonists you had plenty of scores to settle with and had been dealing with most of the game... you should know your enemy.  I do not want to down The Big Bad only to find out he was actually working for Vegeta the whole time. *cough*final fantasy9*cough*

 

4: Talents/abilities just need to be about purpose and use.  I would rather have a mage with 15 spells that I use every so often than a mage with 30 spells where half of them I go the whole game and maybe cast 2-3 times.  If an ability is not going to see regular use don't create it, it is just too situational and a waste of time.  Likewise we don't know enough about Talent trees yet but lets hope they leave some room for depth so the Armor Wearing mage is viable with the two hand axe fighter tank and the crossbow rogue.

[Sarex]

Variety =/= Quantity

 

If magical items (especially powerful one) are too common there's a huge risk of completely killing the excitement of finding them,  a math game in which you periodically change your sword with one with a slightily higher bonus.

 

His point was that he wants less magical items, my point was that it is a bad idea. Quantity is neither here or there.

 

variety is good. overloading the game with junk items is bad

like in BG2 that you mention, from the start you can find really nice looking stuff in shops, but by the time you can afford them, you have already found better items in the areas you visited and are left with the question: why should anyone have any reason to buy this? or certain overpriced stuff in adventurer's mart that simply had nothing to offer for the money you had to spend

if to get the money you need in order to buy a +2 sword, requires you to pass through a dungeon in which you find +3 weapons for the entire party, the existence of the +2 sword is meaningless. the designers should have made that sword +3 with some special ability that would rival the one you found, giving you a reason to consider buying it and thus creating variety. also if you have the "sniper's crossbow" (a heavy crossbow that gives +3 to attack, +4 to damage and no specials) cost 30k, then you have the no name heavy crossbow +4 that gives +4 to attack +6 to damage for 21k in the same shop, in a game that has no requirements for the equipment, is anyone going to consider buying the first? it would be even worse if that guardian you had to kill in order to get where the shop is had a heavy crossbow +5 hand placed among the loot

 

There was some cool stuff that you could only buy from merchants, but that is beside the point that he and I where talking about.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Sarex

[Sir Chaox]

2. Loot/magic obsession.

 

I'm once again reminded of the Avernum series and how great a job they did with making magic weapons and equipment feel very special just because they were so rare.

[Frenetic Pony]

Everything should be magical all the time! I should be able to cover my body in magical trinkets, and then my glowing form shall reign o'er the land as like unto a god

 

Or rather, I dislike when the game doesn't change in how you play as you progress. This smbc explains it rather well: http://t.co/UfKquMall5

 

Instead of just "more health and damage, and your enemies get more health and damage!" I'd rather new mechanics be introduced as time goes on, both on my side and on the enemy side. I want to go into a fight and go "Oh! That's never happened before."

Edited February 5, 2014 by Frenetic Pony

[J.E. Sawyer]

1. Forgetting to balance enchantments.

 

You have your two-handed weapon, 1h weapon & shield and dual wielding 1h weapons options. Which ones ill you go for? In most CRPG's you'd go for the last two. Why?

 

Because the designers seem to forget that TWO magical items equals TWICE the magical enchantments, hence why such combos are almost always vastly superior to a 2h weapon.

 

You have a paralisis enchantment on that big 2H axe? That's nice, I got a paralisyis enchantment on my 1h sword and a blindness enchantment on my 1h mace. I deal 2(3?) damage types and have twice the chance to incapacitate you.

What's that? But you do more damage 2d6 +5 fire damage? Not bad. I do 1d8+5 fire and 1d6+5 ice damage. Opps. Looks like you underperform there too.

 

Our weapons' enchantments are balanced around their handedness and speed.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

It was especially bad in Throne of Bhaal with shopkeepers selling magical artifacts like they were peanuts... It felt more like I was playing fantasy Dragon Ball Z than anything but that's D&D epic levels for you.

 

 

This is one problem with Epic levels. The higher the level you go, the better the weapons (and abilities) you get. While it didn't make sense for shopkeepers to have those items, you would normally get better items through the expansion. This is always going to be a problem when you have the same character levelling up in games with expansions, exporting them into sequels and more expansions. And when you have so many classes, you have to cater for all those classes, hence the over abundance of magical items.

 

At least ToB didn't have abilities like this:

 

 

 

 

 

[Sir Chaox]

Instead of just "more health and damage, and your enemies get more health and damage!" I'd rather new mechanics be introduced as time goes on, both on my side and on the enemy side. I want to go into a fight and go "Oh! That's never happened before."

Well there will also be passive/active skills in PE, which will introduce new mechanics as levels increase. So the amount of variables in a combat encounter will increase as we rise in levels.

[Jobby]

I'm all for lots of weapons that provide distinct tactical advantages in different situations, as opposed to +2 is better than +1 ect. And as I recall the Vorpal sword was pure awesomeness

 

I also can't say there was any combat in BG I didn't enjoy although enemies with a sense of self preservation would be good to see.

 

Though I do see where your coming from for the most part.

[TrashMan]

 

2. Loot/magic obsession.

 

Finding loot is part of a CRPG charm. But it's not waht a CRPG should be about. It's not why we remember great fnatasy stories. Your average CRPG protagonists goes trough magical items faster than a starving man trough food. Magical items constantly discarded, used for 5 minutes untill a better weapon comes along.

Long before the end of the game, every single inventory slot is filled with magical items. By the end, a character would cause a magic detector to explode. She sheer magniute of magical energy radiated over the hoards of legendary/epic items that the world hasn't seen in millenia would be OVER 9000!!!

 

Magic and magical items are overused. When everything is magical, nothing is. Magic itself loses part of it's charm and "oomph". Powerful magical items are ntohing but trinkets to be discarded.

 

When you think of Aragorn - was every single thing he carried magical? Did it have to be? Do characters in fantasy storeis switch equipment every 5 minutes? No, they find something nice and stick with it.

 

It's one of the reasons I loved BG1 atmosphere so much. It felt so real. A qualtiy steel weapon was viable even at end game. You didn't finish the game with everything being a magical +5,+10 uber-item.

 

I disagree on this, very much so. It would make for a really boring game. Variety is good thing, as can be seen from BG2 which is the more popular game.

 

 

Would make for a boring game? Only if you are obessed with loot.

 

There are plenty of games where characters have limited inventories/weapons or games where they even can't take anything new. In some games you can't even carry weapons at all. In some you are limited to only two. In some there are only a dozen weapons in the whole game.

Are those games boring? No.

 

As long as the game gives you stuff to do, it won't be boring. Collecting items has more in common with jiggling shniy keys than actual good gameplay. It's a distraction more than a necessary element.

[TrashMan]

Well my concerns...

 

2: Loot..... well sorta maybe.  I agree BG2 went too monty haul especially in the expansion.  BG1 though?  Way too sparse.  Seriously if you were a say.... long sword specialist you could find Varscona like 4 hours into the game and guess what?  It was the best long sword in the game.  I think they need to find a happy middle ground.  I shouldn't be changing my gear dungeon to dungeon but I shouldn't only be upgrading my weapon twice for the whole game either.

 

I fail to see the problem. You are rewarded for finding a great swrod early andnow your character can carry it and make it his.

Think of every fantasy character and their weapon. Anduril. Twinkle. Sword of Truth. Etc...

they are all found relatively early and the hero sticks with them. Noone of those weapons are found at hte very end of hte story. None of those weapons are replacable throw-aways. The heroes in those stories dont' go trough 100 weapons beore settling on that one.

I see no problem with it.

Make the weapon part of the character. Give the player the ability to mark/customize it. For NPC to recongnize it. Give it presence. Give a bonus to familiarty because of long use. It only makes sense.

 

I found BG1 to be almost right. Magis should be magical. Rare. Finding a magic item should be a moment of awe. ToB was horribel in that regard, given that it was raining +5 items left and right.

 

You really shouldn't be able to have EVERY SINGLE SLOT ON EVERY CHARACTER filled with magical gear. It's jsut immersion breaking to have your character have more magical items than any person in history.

 

 

 

 

 

4: Talents/abilities just need to be about purpose and use.  I would rather have a mage with 15 spells that I use every so often than a mage with 30 spells where half of them I go the whole game and maybe cast 2-3 times.  If an ability is not going to see regular use don't create it, it is just too situational and a waste of time.

 

Dunno about that. Not everything has to be equal. So a spell that's used infrequently will not be anyones first pick. So what? It still adds veriety to a class.