Coronavirus: Triple Edition

[Gromnir]

meanwhile, in the US, the next big hurdle will be convincing anti-vaxxers to submit to getting their shots and the inevitable lawsuits which will spawn and spread near as quick as covid-19.

keep in mind that while compulsory vaccinations is current okie dokie 'ccording to US law, am suspecting there will be numerous challenges to jacobson (and roe v. wade by the way) and those challenges is gonna pit conservative v. liberal and conservative v. conservative. in fact, liberals and conservatives is gonna realize all too quick how their political distinctions do not mesh seamless with legal arguments. 

have mentioned on this board previous the case o' buck v. bell

buck v. bell were cited by the jacobson court as basis for the legitimacy o' mandatory vaccinations. 

in a bit o' legal irony which will no doubt be lost on many, the primary argument antivaxxers is gonna embrace to advance their claim that they cannot be forced to submit to compulsory vaccinations will be the so-called right o' bodily integrity which is at the heart of roe v. wade. bodily integrity is not an absolute right as an individual may be forced to submit to a blood-alcohol test, but forced to unwilling endure 9-months o' gestation is too much for the Constitution to bear... at least that is the law as o' 11/24/2020. vaccinations is not a simple blood draw but is instead injecting a foreign substance into the human body, and while the chances o' harm resulting from covid-19 vaccinations will be low, those chances won't be zero and the potential harms will not be understood fully for some time to come. e.g. is doubtful many pregnant women were part o' the covid-19 vaccination candidate safety trials, and in the past there has been vaccinations which has had unexpected and harmful effects on unborn children. so, not like forced pregnancy, but not like blood-alcohol tests. as such, the new SCOTUS majority's first opportunity to neuter roe v. wade will likely arrive as the result o' antivaxxers fighting against compulsory vaccinations.  

so, IF you want roe v. wade to survive this iteration o' SCOTUS, you is necessarily gonna need be rooting for the antivaxxers? 

is actual only an extreme small number o' religious faiths in the US which reject vaccinations, but there will be a few first amendment challenges to vaccinations as well.

the vaccine legal battles in the US is gonna get ugly and is gonna confuse many. 

(in this space, pretend as if we added your favorite "celebrate good times" meme or kool & the gang reference)

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Gromnir

[BruceVC]

5 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

meanwhile, in the US, the next big hurdle will be convincing anti-vaxxers to submit to getting their shots and the inevitable lawsuits which will spawn and spread near as quick as covid-19.

keep in mind that while compulsory vaccinations is current okie dokie 'ccording to US law, am suspecting there will be numerous challenges to jacobson (and roe v. wade by the way) and those challenges is gonna pit conservative v. liberal and conservative v. conservative. in fact, liberals and conservatives is gonna realize all too quick how their political distinctions do not mesh seamless with legal arguments. 

have mentioned on this board previous the case o' buck v. bell

buck v. bell were cited by the jacobson court as basis for the legitimacy o' mandatory vaccinations. 

in a bit o' legal irony which will no doubt be lost on many, the primary argument antivaxxers is gonna embrace to advance their claim that they cannot be forced to submit to compulsory vaccinations will be the so-called right o' bodily integrity which is at the heart of roe v. wade. bodily integrity is not an absolute right as an individual may be forced to submit to a blood-alcohol test, but forced to unwilling endure 9-months o' gestation is too much for the Constitution to bear... at least that is the law as o' 11/24/2020. vaccinations is not a simple blood draw but is instead injecting a foreign substance into the human body, and while the chances o' harm resulting from covid-19 vaccinations will be low, those chances won't be zero and the potential harms will not be understood fully for some time to come. e.g. is doubtful many pregnant women were part o' the covid-19 vaccination candidate safety trials, and in the past there has been vaccinations which has had unexpected and harmful effects on unborn children. so, not like forced pregnancy, but not like blood-alcohol tests. as such, the new SCOTUS majority's first opportunity to neuter roe v. wade will likely arrive as the result o' antivaxxers fighting against compulsory vaccinations.  

so, IF you want roe v. wade to survive this iteration o' SCOTUS, you is necessarily gonna need be rooting for the antivaxxers? 

is actual only an extreme small number o' religious faiths in the US which reject vaccinations, but there will be a few first amendment challenges to vaccinations as well.

the vaccine legal battles in the US is gonna get ugly and is gonna confuse many. 

(in this space, pretend as if we added your favorite "celebrate good times" meme or kool & the gang reference)

HA! Good Fun!

 

Informative post but I definitely wont be supporting the " anti-vaxxers " because if you reject the proven science behind vaccinations, in the case of Corona, you are indirectly and directly not helping to address the virus spread and infection rate

People  throughout the world are dying from this virus and the most effective strategy to allow our lives to return to normal requires acceptance of the vaccine and initially continuing to follow "best virus prevention  " like wearing masks and avoiding indoor crowded places like clubs and bars

[Gorth]

7 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

People  throughout the world are dying from this virus and the most effective strategy to allow our lives to return to normal requires acceptance of the vaccine and initially continuing to follow "best virus prevention  " like wearing masks and avoiding indoor crowded places like clubs and bars

Just a tip... for a short while, read the comments to Fox News articles. Sort of gives you an idea what you're up against. It's scary stuff. Those people are convinced it's their god given right to do as they please without thought for their neighbor. Lock downs impinge on *MY* freedom of movement, yell bloody murder and ignore anything remotely looking like social distancing. Masks? Hahaha... masks do *not* protect *me*, filthy liberals should all go to hell for suggesting we should wear masks... and so on. Almost (but not quite) quoted verbatim from the people who voted Trump. Oh, and also, Trump is to thank for the Pfizer vaccine, we should all bow and grovel in the dust before him. After all, he organized for Pfizer to pay all their research (for those who don't know, BioNTech did the research and Pfizer is going to mass produce it, Trump refused to fund the research, so the German government and the EU paid for it). Makes you roll you eyes in disbelief at the disinformation being spread wholesale on Murdoch media.

[BruceVC]

17 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Just a tip... for a short while, read the comments to Fox News articles. Sort of gives you an idea what you're up against. It's scary stuff. Those people are convinced it's their god given right to do as they please without thought for their neighbor. Lock downs impinge on *MY* freedom of movement, yell bloody murder and ignore anything remotely looking like social distancing. Masks? Hahaha... masks do *not* protect *me*, filthy liberals should all go to hell for suggesting we should wear masks... and so on. Almost (but not quite) quoted verbatim from the people who voted Trump. Oh, and also, Trump is to thank for the Pfizer vaccine, we should all bow and grovel in the dust before him. After all, he organized for Pfizer to pay all their research (for those who don't know, BioNTech did the research and Pfizer is going to mass produce it, Trump refused to fund the research, so the German government and the EU paid for it). Makes you roll you eyes in disbelief at the disinformation being spread wholesale on Murdoch media.

Yes, I hear you. I cant add anything else to your post.  I am extremely disappointed with some of the views from countries like the USA, and media houses like FOX,  from people who seem to dismiss the science ....its a good topic and one worth trying to understand and worthy of a detailed discussion to get peoples perspectives

I plan to create a topic specifically around this but not at the moment as sometimes I need to take breaks from important but frustrating debates 

 

[BruceVC]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/11/coronavirus-vaccine-russia-says-its-vaccine-is-92percent-effective.html

Russia is saying its vaccine is about 90 % effective, I am not convinced this is true but I hope it is

There vaccine is also cheaper than Pizer but not Oxford. Any vaccine that helps stop the pandemic spread is good news for me irrespective where it comes from 

 

 

[Azdeus]

6 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Interesting post, I am not sure its fair or reasonable to allow the patent of any Corona vaccine globally to be made available? In the case of SA we dont have the resources and intuitions to create  any vaccine so I am not sure what we expect 

I understand this is positioned as a case of " in  interest of humanity " but there  are over 200 vaccines trials ongoing and there will be many choices around different costing models available 

Also the global pharmaceutical companies have on several  occasions explained that the initial vaccines will be made available on " zero percent profit ". Countries can and will negotiate competitive prices for the vaccines for there citizens 

Here is a good link that highlights how governments should and can negotiate vaccine prices 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/07/22/894184607/u-s-to-get-100-million-doses-of-pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine-in-1-95-billion-deal

SA might not have the facilities to make covid vaccine, but they can buy cheap copies - India definetly has the facilities to manufacture vaccines though.

[Zoraptor]

I'd suspect most countries could make the 'simple' vaccines like Sputnik or the Oxford one. In the end they just need big fermenters (as you'd use for brewing, pretty much) and a bunch of purification steps. Probably too much work for a one off unless you had to, but if you had to you could do it.

In a medical emergency/ pandemic you can go the Compulsory Licence route and just make a vaccine as an emergency measure. That would apply here as all the vaccines will be in limited supply for some time and despite the rhetoric poor countries will not be anywhere near first in line.

(Kind of lol, Russia announces their vaccine's results and we get a bunch of skeptics trotted out by British State Propaganda saying how it's been rushed and is difficult to store and we can't trust the results as they haven't been published. They're all rushed, it's as difficult to store as the Oxford one- which it's nearly identical to, since they're both based on existing Cold vaccines- and none of the results were published when the others got hyped (don't think any are officially published even yet))

[Gromnir]

clarification: the US and the various States will not legislate universal vaccine mandates

particular in the current political climate, am not seeing how such would work. is legal possible for the government to require vaccinations (until jacobson is overturned) but is a lack o' political clout to legislate such mandates when literal +40% o' people is dubious 'bout the covid-19 vaccines, although suspicion is decreasing. thank goodness.

what will happen is any number o' government healthcare and educational organizations will require employees to be vaccinated to continue working. am also guessing students at state funded schools will face inconsistent vaccine mandates (e.g. state university school of medicine.) 

military personnel will also be required to vaccinate... eventually. this is one area where the new biden administration may change policy regarding required vaccinations. full fda approval (not emergency) is the announced prerequisite for mandatory military vaccinations. full fda approval takes a long time and "long" is usual measured in years. however, am suspecting VA hospitals and healthcare facilities is gonna be one o' the initial distribution points for the new covid-19 vaccines and is ez to predict at least a few civilian employees o' the VA will not accept the demand to vaccinate.

not actual relevant, but am not personal in favor o' forced vaccinations. the US has an ugly history when it comes to forced medical procedures, particular where those being forced is part o' a political marginalized group. is no reason to believe the current covid-19 vaccines will be anything other than safe and we will be at front o' the que to receive such as soon as is an option. nevertheless, am not believing the State should force vaccinations for covid-19... while at the same time we will continue to seethe at those ignorant granola moms who read on the internet that vaccines cause autism so they avoid having their child vaccinated for measles. give people a choice and is predictable more than a few will chose poorly. am not seeing as inconsistent that we fight for a right to choose while we simultaneous rebuke those who chose wrong.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Guard Dog]

23 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

clarification: the US and the various States will not legislate universal vaccine mandates

particular in the current political climate, am not seeing how such would work. is legal possible for the government to require vaccinations (until jacobson is overturned) but is a lack o' political clout to legislate such mandates when literal +40% o' people is dubious 'bout the covid-19 vaccines, although suspicion is decreasing. thank goodness.

what will happen is any number o' government healthcare and educational organizations will require employees to be vaccinated to continue working. am also guessing students at state funded schools will face inconsistent vaccine mandates (e.g. state university school of medicine.) 

military personnel will also be required to vaccinate... eventually. this is one area where the new biden administration may change policy regarding required vaccinations. full fda approval (not emergency) is the announced prerequisite for mandatory military vaccinations. full fda approval takes a long time and "long" is usual measured in years. however, am suspecting VA hospitals and healthcare facilities is gonna be one o' the initial distribution points for the new covid-19 vaccines and is ez to predict at least a few civilian employees o' the VA will not accept the demand to vaccinate.

not actual relevant, but am not personal in favor o' forced vaccinations. the US has an ugly history when it comes to forced medical procedures, particular where those being forced is part o' a political marginalized group. is no reason to believe the current covid-19 vaccines will be anything other than safe and we will be at front o' the que to receive such as soon as is an option. nevertheless, am not believing the State should force vaccinations for covid-19... while at the same time we will continue to seethe at those ignorant granola moms who read on the internet that vaccines cause autism so they avoid having their child vaccinated for measles. give people a choice and is predictable more than a few will chose poorly. am not seeing as inconsistent that we fight for a right to choose while we simultaneous rebuke those who chose wrong.

HA! Good Fun!

 

The military does not work like the real world though. Part of the enlistment contract is to agree to undergo any medical procedures the military deemed medically necessary. That includes a whole bunch of funky vaccines that leaves you sicker than a dog for a couple of days before going overseas. They remind me of that when they pulled my wisdom teeth out. Not that I minded because they really just saved me a couple of hundred bucks down the road. So if they tell you to roll up your sleeves don’t bitch just do it because it’s going to happen no matter what

Edited November 25, 2020 by Guard Dog

[Gromnir]

10 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

The military does not work like the real world though. Part of the enlistment contract is to agree to undergo any medical procedures the military deemed medically necessary. That includes a whole bunch of funky vaccines that leaves you sicker than a dog for a couple of days before going overseas. They remind me of that when they pulled my wisdom teeth out. Not that I minded because they really just saved me a couple of hundred bucks down the road. So if they tell you to roll up your sleeves don’t bitch just do it because it’s going to happen no matter what

that military personnel would need submit to vaccination were never in question. although as we noted, the current guidelines has vaccines being voluntary for military personnel if is no fda approval, and emergency approval don't count. once there is fda approval, it don't matter what your personal reservations 'bout vaccinations may be-- you get your shots. biden could change the current guidelines to include emergency approval.

but again...

33 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

however, am suspecting VA hospitals and healthcare facilities is gonna be one o' the initial distribution points for the new covid-19 vaccines and is ez to predict at least a few civilian employees o' the VA will not accept the demand to vaccinate.

from a legal pov, the issue is gonna be those civilians employees working at military healthcare sites. 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

10 hours ago, Gromnir said:

clarification: the US and the various States will not legislate universal vaccine mandates

 

 

Its a pity you cannot make taking the Corona vaccine mandatory in every country, I cannot think of one convincing or factual argument where someone could say " I refuse to take the vaccine "

I understand people have a right to make choices in our countries but this particular virus is so contagious you not just potentially making yourself sick if you refuse to take the vaccine you are potentially killing other people and that should be a right no one has

I also understand the historical reasons minorities may be wary of the vaccine , we see this in SA as well , but this doesnt change the reality of the necessity of the vaccine and it is not a valid reason to not take it  considering the global nature  of the pandemic

Gromnir it should be legally part of our systems like paying taxes, everyone pays taxes generally. You dont get a choice 

I believe in peoples right to make choices and to be accountable but this vaccine should be seen differently considering the real health risk and damage done to the world 

Edited November 26, 2020 by BruceVC

[Raithe]

On that economic turn due to Covid, recent reports from some think-tanks in the UK are saying that over 700,000 people have been moved over the poverty line this year due to various pandemic related issues.  Which apparently makes it that around 23% of the UK population is now considered to be "in poverty".

Of course, the various right-of-center and left-of-center think tanks are arguing whether Government responses have helped or hindered.

[Gfted1]

You guys should print up another Trillion and let the good times roll.

[Amentep]

On 11/25/2020 at 11:31 PM, BruceVC said:

I cannot think of one convincing or factual argument where someone could say " I refuse to take the vaccine "

Allergy to one or more of the ingredients in the vaccine? No clue if any of the COVID-19 vaccines have ingredients that people would be typically allergic to, but that's one of the usual (and generally least controversial) reasons to refuse a vaccine.

[majestic]

58 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Allergy to one or more of the ingredients in the vaccine? No clue if any of the COVID-19 vaccines have ingredients that people would be typically allergic to, but that's one of the usual (and generally least controversial) reasons to refuse a vaccine.

People with supressed or otherwise reduced immune response, pre-existing conditions or current / prior infections... also everyone who doesn't want to be microchipped by Bill Gates. I mean, c'mon, do you REALLY want to be  vaccinated when the biggest proponent of vaccines is in favor of a drastic population reduction?

[Gorth]

Patients who appears to have gotten off "lightly" from Covid infections might still end up with life time damage

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55017301

"The risk of severe illness and death increases markedly for the over 60s. But if the trial discovers that the lung damage occurs across a wider age group and even in those not requiring admission to hospital "it would move the goalposts," according to Prof Gleeson.

He believes the lung damage identified by the Xenon scans may be one of the factors behind long Covid, where people feel unwell for several months after infection.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Gorth said:

Patients who appears to have gotten off "lightly" from Covid infections might still end up with life time damage

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55017301

"The risk of severe illness and death increases markedly for the over 60s. But if the trial discovers that the lung damage occurs across a wider age group and even in those not requiring admission to hospital "it would move the goalposts," according to Prof Gleeson.

He believes the lung damage identified by the Xenon scans may be one of the factors behind long Covid, where people feel unwell for several months after infection.

"Post-acute COVID-19 Syndrome": COVID "long-haulers" suffering symptoms months after initial diagnosis

[BruceVC]

On 11/30/2020 at 5:20 PM, Raithe said:

On that economic turn due to Covid, recent reports from some think-tanks in the UK are saying that over 700,000 people have been moved over the poverty line this year due to various pandemic related issues.  Which apparently makes it that around 23% of the UK population is now considered to be "in poverty".

Of course, the various right-of-center and left-of-center think tanks are arguing whether Government responses have helped or hindered.

Raithe please dont allow yourself to develop the normal and expected very negative sentiment of things that people in the UK start believing about the UK and what this means for the future of the UK. English people are renowned for generally complaining about how terrible things are in the UK yet they get the job done and are able to survive and prosperous 

The 23% is real but its not a normal unemployment figure ....it is an outcome of the lockdown and the economic lockdown so its an "artificial "  number that will be addressed once the vaccine is being used. In SA we have a 50 % unemployment. 

Any government that has implemented lockdown measures is definitely doing the right thing. We cant blame any government for the general decisions of citizens who have ignored the best practice virus prevention steps  like a wearing a mask. Unfortunately the UK is one of those EU countries that has not had all citizens follow the virus prevention steps and the inevitable outcome is always the same in any country. The vaccine will return things to more or normal but until then wear your mask and try to avoid clubs and bars 

I do feel very sorry  for the English because of there love and culture identity with going to bars and how this was difficult to stop as it is part of some real English way of life ....but the reality is your normal visit to a pub is high risk virus vector so just try to wait maybe 6 months ?

 

 

 

[Raithe]

3 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

The 23% is real but its not a normal unemployment figure ....it is an outcome of the lockdown and the economic lockdown so its an "artificial "  number that will be addressed once the vaccine is being used. In SA we have a 50 % unemployment.

Oh no, that 23% has nothing to do with unemployment, or okay, in part because of that.  But the fun aspect is that the question of what exactly the "poverty line" is jumps all over the place.  it's used as such a variable definition these days. It doesn't mean "can't afford rent or food" it can be what other countries might view as luxuries as well.

I mentioned it more as one of those quirky, somewhat interesting data points.  And for that interesting mix of "If it wasn't for the government it would be higher" contrasted to "if it wasn't for the government it would be lower"...

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Raithe said:

Oh no, that 23% has nothing to do with unemployment, or okay, in part because of that.  But the fun aspect is that the question of what exactly the "poverty line" is jumps all over the place.  it's used as such a variable definition these days. It doesn't mean "can't afford rent or food" it can be what other countries might view as luxuries as well.

I mentioned it more as one of those quirky, somewhat interesting data points.  And for that interesting mix of "If it wasn't for the government it would be higher" contrasted to "if it wasn't for the government it would be lower"...

This is a  pandemic and its impact is unprecedented and also how we try to understand all the grim lockdown news....so your observation is correct, I watch Sky and BBC and they always do a good job of being honest but on Sky they seem to present the news in a constantly negative way ....CNN is honest but hells bells the accurate virus updates are horrendous and make me feel ill...and I dont live in the US. For example many US citizens went away on planes for Thanksgiving celebration which wasn't advised at all because right now the virus is all over the place so when you fly there is a very good chance of exposure and then mass people getting sick and the inevitable deaths ....terrible and alone and sometimes on  ventilators which never have a good  survival rate 

They interview numerous doctors on CNN and all of them are exhausted at the moment and they said pleaded with all US citizens " please stay at home for Thanksgiving " .....you see doctors and nurse are the ones who have to try to treat many sick people who cannot be cured so just have to wait and hope people recover 

 

 

[LadyCrimson]

We've been under a 10pm-5am curfew recently. initially until near Xmas (could get extended tho).  No you won't get arrested if you want to walk your dog or buy milk at  11pm.  Probably a response to rising cases as well as trying to curb holiday gathering.  No theaters, no gyms, other indoor gathering business etc.

At least I don't need to stock up on toilet paper again.

[Hurlshort]

28 minutes ago, LadyCrimson said:

We've been under a 10pm-5am curfew recently. initially until near Xmas (could get extended tho).  No you won't get arrested if you want to walk your dog or buy milk at  11pm.  Probably a response to rising cases as well as trying to curb holiday gathering.  No theaters, no gyms, other indoor gathering business etc.

At least I don't need to stock up on toilet paper again.

I chuckle at the fact I am much more likely to be inconvenienced by the 5 AM part than the 10 PM. That is way past my bedtime. Luckily all of my 4:45 AM workouts are on hold for the winter. 

[213374U]

13 hours ago, Gorth said:

Patients who appears to have gotten off "lightly" from Covid infections might still end up with life time damage

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55017301

"The risk of severe illness and death increases markedly for the over 60s. But if the trial discovers that the lung damage occurs across a wider age group and even in those not requiring admission to hospital "it would move the goalposts," according to Prof Gleeson.

He believes the lung damage identified by the Xenon scans may be one of the factors behind long Covid, where people feel unwell for several months after infection.

Just for context, because the BBC piece doesn't make it very clear (that's a shocker). The study in question is part of the C-MORE study. It deals with patients who had moderate to severe COVID19, and who had all been hospitalized.

While it is certainly possible that a fraction of asymptomatic and mild cases could also present these kinds of complications, the study in question doesn't really speak to that because the sample is composed of patients who developed pneumonia.

[Gorth]

The UK are our guinea pigs pioneers! Distribution of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine to start in about a week (unless the subjects keels over in droves I suppose).

If enough of the British survive the process, I might line up in the queue for a few shots myself here down under when it becomes available.

 

Edit: source https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55145696

 

[Malcador]

On 12/2/2020 at 4:40 AM, Gorth said:

The UK are our guinea pigs pioneers! Distribution of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine to start in about a week (unless the subjects keels over in droves I suppose).

If enough of the British survive the process, I might line up in the queue for a few shots myself here down under when it becomes available.

 

Edit: source https://www.bbc.com/news/health-55145696

 

At long last, we can exploit the British instead of the other way around.