People trolling the POE2 Steam site ...

[Gfted1]

"Dont eat yellow snow." - Confucius

[Gromnir]

Is there actual data that supports those claims?

 

Because recently I read about a study that showed that baby boomers act more entiteld than millenials - which would contradict your statement.

 

time article with data

 

Here's the cold, hard data: The incidence of narcissistic personality disorder is nearly three times as high for people in their 20s as for the generation that's now 65 or older, according to the National Institutes of Health; 58% more college students scored higher on a narcissism scale in 2009 than in 1982. Millennials got so many participation trophies growing up that a recent study showed that 40% believe they should be promoted every two years, regardless of performance. They are fame-obsessed: three times as many middle school girls want to grow up to be a personal assistant to a famous person as want to be a Senator, according to a 2007 survey; four times as many would pick the assistant job over CEO of a major corporation. They're so convinced of their own greatness that the National Study of Youth and Religion found the guiding morality of 60% of millennials in any situation is that they'll just be able to feel what's right. Their development is stunted: more people ages 18 to 29 live with their parents than with a spouse, according to the 2012 Clark University Poll of Emerging Adults. And they are lazy. In 1992, the nonprofit Families and Work Institute reported that 80% of people under 23 wanted to one day have a job with greater responsibility; 10 years later, only 60% did.

 

can google scholarly articles on millennial entitlement if you wish to be hit with a tsunami o' studies.

 

that said, have been posting as Gromnir for 20 years and have been following games a bit longer.  current over-the-top reaction to perceived developer/publisher evils and/or incompetence feels no different than the last thousand or so examples o' misdirected nerd rage. such curiously inordinate behavior strikes us as more o' comment on human nature than some kinda insight into a generational-specific quirk.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

Could you elaborate that a bit ? Do you only need an online account on the epic store to buy and download games without any client installed on your machine ?

Or am i required at any point to install some client from epic ?

 

 

 

 

For the player it's a matter of installing another client (and using it ONCE to install the game), for the developer it can lead to thousands more $ due to better split, if your sales are good.

Do we know that OuterWorlds will be DRM free (no Epic required to run the game beside download and updates)?

I was assuming it works like Steam? You set auto log-in and it just launches when you double click the game's icon on your desktop

Ha! First of all I misunderstood you. After a bit of research Epic actually seems less invasive then steam. I am not 100% sure if it is true with every game (it might be up to developer/publisher) but from what I used of it it acts as a downloader and updater but it doesn’t need to even be installed to play games that were downloaded using it. I remember it was one of the counter arguments during the Phoenix Point backlash, and yesterday I run two games I downloaded via Epic Store without running the actual platform. That’s a big positive IMO.

 

[Boeroer]

I read this and found it more convincing.

 

And of course I look at this from a european perspective.

[Verde]

So I'd like to throw this in here before the mods get me, but Outward (survival RPG released today) is awesome and worth picking up. More survival and exploration than straight combat, at least initially. Great music too! Since this topic is about Steam and I bought it off Steam, it's relevant

Edited March 26, 2019 by Verde

[xzar_monty]

 

And of course I look at this from a european perspective.

 

The European perspective may be extremely significant here. I know a famous physical education teacher (strength, flexibility, acrobatics) who pointed out that Europe and North America are two different worlds in this regard. In Europe, he can bring up problems in his students' approach and execution, whereas in the United States, in particular, he has to be extremely careful with criticism, because (as he said) a harsh word is likely to send students into extensive psychotherapy.

Edited March 26, 2019 by xzar_monty

[bringingyouthefuture]

All good fun that last one was too anecdotal I mean in the words of my 8th grade math teacher (who I consider one of my best teachers):

 

"Son, I don't know whether to call you a chipmunk or a sheepdog, you kind of look like both"

-Mr. Tucker

[Gromnir]

I read this and found it more convincing.

 

And of course I look at this from a european perspective.

is actual very little in the linked article which is direct rejecting numbers we posted from the time article.  boeroer's linked suggests there is misunderstandings caused by overapplication o' stereotypes in the workplace, and that what older employees and employers consider entitlement is also a misunderstanding.  not all that much to go on in regards to millennials in the linked.

 

the time article, on the other hand, compares numbers from 80s vs nows regarding the following: nih study o' incidence o' narcissism in college-aged, expectations of promotion regardless o' job performance, importance o' fame, dependence on moral relativism (with conscience as guiding principle) when when facing ethical/moral decision making, desire for more workplace responsibility, likelihood o' a 20-something not being married and/or still living with mom and/or dad.... or mom/mom or dad/dad... is 2019 after all.

 

of the time statistics, only the participation trophy/promotion aspect would be direct relevant to boeroer article regarding workplace missapprehensions, and even it might be distinguishable.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am gonna say, as a person who studied abroad and taught a bit in europe during early 90s, am thinking the euro pov is important in differentiating, but perhaps not as others believe is appropriate.

[ShadySands]

I have to wonder if things like living at home longer are just a product of different financial realities and not necessarily entitlement and lack of effort ...said the millennial

 

Of course I also have 2 brothers that live at home and don't really apply themselves so there's that

[Katarack21]

The narcissism debate is far from over. A 2017 study actually found a *decline* in narcissism through the generations.

"In contrast to popular opinion,we did not find that today’s college students are more narcissistic than college students in the 1990s or the 2000s,at least in the three universities examined in the present study. In fact, we found small decreases both in overall narcissism and in the leadership, vanity, and entitlement facets. Importantly, these decreases already started between the 1990s and the 2000s and only continued more strongly in the late 2000s and 2010s."


https://kar.kent.ac.uk/62391/1/Wetzel_et_al_(in_press)_The_narcissism_epidemic_is_dead_long_live_the_narcissism_epidemic_final_accepted_version.pdf
 

[Boeroer]

The study which said that Baby Boomers behave more entitled than Millenials unfortunately isn't online anymore.

 

Anyways: I don't live in the US and thus can't judge about the situation without reading a lot of stuff - which I don't have the time for. But here in Europe there isn't such a big discussion about millenials. Sure - every once in a while people will say that today's youth is xyz and whatnot and that mobbing is a bigger thing, that mental issues are on the rise etcpp. But often enough the explanation for that is that those things get diagnosed and monitored a lot better/sooner than they were 30 years ago. Anyway - there's no big discussion about that here. During my time as researcher at university (after I graduated) I would also lecture students and supervise student associates. Later I worked with trainees in companies and so on. Those were mostly very competend and well behaving, decent people. I seldomly heared or hear a complaint about their work ethics compared to "the good old times". A discussion we had recently was that conservatives said that kids/students who are currently protesting on fridays because of climate change (and show a lot of engagement) shouldn't skip school. I mean if that's the biggest problem with european youngsters then everything is in order...

While we speak about the difference between US and European youngsters: One thing I have noticed is vastly different. Let me give an example:

In Berlin and other capital cities around the world (that's where I live - I move a lot) you can meet quite a lot of US Americans with their families (expats & diplomats mostly, sometimes military). Especially if you are connected to the diplomatic community like I am. You not only meet them at receptions but also on the playground and so on. Geberally speaking, US Americans seem to treat their kids very differently. In the eyes of most Germans they are overprotective. Its funny to see how stoked US moms are if they see that you let your 2-year-old daughter climb up the monkey bars all by herself. "What if she falls?" "Well then she will get up again I guess?" "But it will hurt!" "Sooo....?". There's sand, there's padding - but still they will look around in panic - in search for those uncaring parents. One even asked me where the playground security is. Playground security in Berlin... that provoked some thigh-slapping.
Several parents from the US told me how hard is was for them to adapt to the german "laizzez-faire" approach when it comes to supervising your kids.
I also met several Russian families - and I guess they think the same about us Germans, haha! :D

Edited March 26, 2019 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

I have to wonder if things like living at home longer are just a product of different financial realities and not necessarily entitlement and lack of effort ...said the millennial

In Italy men stay at home a lot longer than men do in Germany (average). But I never heard that they feel more entitled. They just learn to fry an egg and wash their clothes a bit later as far as I can tell. Edited March 27, 2019 by Boeroer

[Verde]

I think if anything, living at home is much more of a European thing. Parents regularly "kick" their kids out in the US, to give them that extra push. And stop them from having people over ha *I mean didn't happen to me or anything*

Edited March 26, 2019 by Verde

[Gromnir]

I think if anything, living at home is much more of a European thing. Parents regularly "kick" their kids out in the US, to give them that extra push. And stop them from having people over ha *I mean didn't happen to me or anything*

 

 

might also be a generational thing 'cause Gromnir, and most o' our contemporaries, were not needing a push out the door.  never even discussed with family as we just assumed that w/i a year o' graduating high school, we would be independent.  actual happened sooner as we went away to University and then had summer jobs in california as 'posed to returning back home.  woulda' left regardless... join military or go back to working ranches in the dakotas or perhaps do wet work in se asia.  

 

we listen to millennials complain 'bout their terrible families, then find out they is 25 and still living at home? 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Katarack21]

 

I think if anything, living at home is much more of a European thing. Parents regularly "kick" their kids out in the US, to give them that extra push. And stop them from having people over ha *I mean didn't happen to me or anything*

 

 

might also be a generational thing 'cause Gromnir, and most o' our contemporaries, were not needing a push out the door.  never even discussed with family as we just assumed that w/i a year o' graduating high school, we would be independent.  actual happened sooner as we went away to University and then had summer jobs in california as 'posed to returning back home.  woulda' left regardless... join military or go back to working ranches in the dakotas or perhaps do wet work in se asia.  

 

we listen to millennials complain 'bout their terrible families, then find out they is 25 and still living at home? 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

That is very much a financial thing. A lot of us Millennial's hit "just after highschool" or "just after college" right in the middle of the big financial collapse in 2008. Add on to that the rent crisis hitting major US urban cities, the cost of tuition, the stagnation of wages, the increased costs of tuition and medical costs, it creates a very different financial environment for people of that age today as compared to thirty years ago.

 

It's not just "leaving home" that's been impacted by this. Millennial's have children later, get married later, buy cars later, buy houses later, etc. All of this can be traced to Millennial's have less money and less secure finances at the same stages of life than prior generations.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2017/01/13/millennials-falling-behind-boomer-parents/96530338/

[Gromnir]

trying to make great recession apply to entire generation y might be a bit overbroad, no? 

 

as difficult as things is nowadays, there is also more opportunities.  community colleges in many states is dirt cheap.  we worked roofing and other construction jobs making good money, and nowadays is almost impossible to fill such jobs.  sure, during the great recession many jobs disappeared, but even at that time, there were a whole host o' jobs which could not be filled 'cause too few people were willing to do menial labor work. 

 

am thinking shady said he identified as millennial.  he went military, yes?  is no doubt part o' the reason he is buying house #2.  am suspect o' any millennial complaining 'bout tuition and medical costs, and host o' other issues, if they did not attempt to avail themselves o' military service.  there is a whole host o' Department of Labor programs which help folks get trained in jobs and there is vast unused apprenticeship programs-- if you aren't earning money, you could at least learn a skill. most state and localities also have programs which is increasing underutilized.

 

https://www.military.com/education/gi-bill/gi-bill-institutes-of-higher-learning-ihl.html

 

https://www.dol.gov/apprenticeship/

 

immigration is a nice comparison, eh?  even during the great recession, immigrants, with no advantages, and typical earning significant less money than natives, were more likely to be employed than natives. were providing for themselves and for their families.  every disadvantage imaginable, and immigrants get work enough to support self and others 'cause they wanna work.

 

https://www.bls.gov/news.release/forbrn.nr0.htm/Labor-Force-Characteristics-of-Foreign-Born-Workers-Summary

 

our situation were a bit unique, so is tough to use as a comparison.  even so, am much aware o' how many opportunities there actual is for younger folks nowadays, but seems like a significant portion o' an entire generation gave up before they even actual tried. 

 

but again, the gamer nonsense which is the substance o' this thread has been a constant for many decades. blame on millennial entitlement is unconvincing.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 27, 2019 by Gromnir

[Katarack21]

Taken *as a demographic cohort*, the Millennial generation *is* significantly less financially stable than prior generations, and part of that is because a lot of us entered our prime productive years during the crisis. It hit Millennial's harder than any other demographic group; that's not "applying the financial crisis to an entire generation", that's just statistical facts. Demographic data like that doesn't apply to individuals; it's a broad brush that gives a general picture of the status of a large group of people over all. Millennial's *still* haven't recovered financially from that, and most likely never will, because of the conflux of when it it and how it hit.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/feb/03/millennials-pay-still-stunted-by-financial-crash-resolution-foundation

As for the military thing, I'm skeptical of anybody who suggests that not signing up for the military means you should be skeptical of their financial issues. There's a whole host of reasons one my not sign up for the military, not least of which is the fact that we've been bogged down in wars in the Middle East for 20 years now and lot's of people don't see "go shoot people" as a good pathway out of financial difficulties. Regardless, Millennial's *did* sign up for the military, and in *huge* numbers. Not everybody qualifies for the military, not everybody has the skills or capabilities the military is looking for, and some people simply have moral and ethical problems with the military. I myself was bounced out during the application process; they were intensely desiring of my test scores, but not so much of my mental illness or my physical disabilities.

I do agree with you to some degree about the gaming issues, but just because these are old complains doesn't mean they are invalid complaints. Exclusivity, in particular, has been an issue in console gaming for a long time, and just because it's been there forever doesn't make it any less anti-competitive or anti-consumer.

[Gromnir]

Taken *as a demographic cohort*, the Millennial generation *is* significantly less financially stable than prior generations, and part of that is because a lot of us entered our prime productive years during the crisis. It hit Millennial's harder than any other demographic group; that's not "applying the financial crisis to an entire generation", that's just statistical facts. Demographic data like that doesn't apply to individuals; it's a broad brush that gives a general picture of the status of a large group of people over all. Millennial's *still* haven't recovered financially from that, and most likely never will, because of the conflux of when it it and how it hit.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/feb/03/millennials-pay-still-stunted-by-financial-crash-resolution-foundation

 

As for the military thing, I'm skeptical of anybody who suggests that not signing up for the military means you should be skeptical of their financial issues. There's a whole host of reasons one my not sign up for the military, not least of which is the fact that we've been bogged down in wars in the Middle East for 20 years now and lot's of people don't see "go shoot people" as a good pathway out of financial difficulties. Regardless, Millennial's *did* sign up for the military, and in *huge* numbers. Not everybody qualifies for the military, not everybody has the skills or capabilities the military is looking for, and some people simply have moral and ethical problems with the military. I myself was bounced out during the application process; they were intensely desiring of my test scores, but not so much of my mental illness or my physical disabilities.

 

I do agree with you to some degree about the gaming issues, but just because these are old complains doesn't mean they are invalid complaints. Exclusivity, in particular, has been an issue in console gaming for a long time, and just because it's been there forever doesn't make it any less anti-competitive or anti-consumer.

trying to use the great recession is not as viable a crutch as you might  believe it to be.  since we are taking a generational approach, is best to actual look generational, yes?  pretty much every generation has suffered similar job issues.  imagine if those young adults who suffered through the great depression became a bunch o' self-absorbed basement dwellers? the big difference with the most recent recession is that mom and dad, who millennials is more dependent 'pon than previous generations, were all too often losing their homes in 2008-2014. perhaps no generation has faced its difficulties so meekly as has generation y.

 

and kinda missing the point on military. IF things is so much tougher in the here and now for young folks to get education and jobs and health care, then military service should increase as a reasonable alternative to perpetual leechdom.  such has not happened.  were a spike after 9/11, but has been pretty much historical steady since then. racial divide has increased in the military with a greater % o' underprivileged minorities enlisting while other folks stay at home, in mom's basement.  yes, not everybody qualifies for the military, but such were the case in the 80s and previous decades, your personal example notwithstanding... generational norms and all that.   the US has indeed been involved in foreign conflicts... since the early 1900s.  has been one foreign conflict or another for much o' recent history.  am a bit unsympathetic to those who would only wanna enjoy benefits o' military service if chance o' actual having fight for their country is low. is nevertheless a viable opportunity for many and in spite o' the real benefits, millennials ain't taking advantage o' military any more than they is taking advantage o' the department o' labor programs we linked.

 

and again, folks is still coming to the US from south America and sub-Saharan Africa, and they are coming in great numbers.  in spite o' the s'posed bleak and unforgiving economic landscape faced by millennials, immigrants come and succeed. these folks come with little.  contrary to right-wing radio stations, many immigrants have much education.  many have negligible education.  fewest is the in between. regardless, immigrants is getting jobs and supporting families and they is doing so with far greater obstacles than the average millennial. there are opportunities. generation y has greater access to free programs and education than any previous generation.  'stead, millennials use the internet to find excuses rather than jobs.

 

as to gamer specific, am seeing no more justice in the present crusade than any other we has seen in decades.  don't like a developer or their practices? obvious and meaningful response is as follows: don't buy their game.  same silliness repeated ad nauseum.  all the nerd rage is wasted if the folks complaining end up buying the evil developer/publisher's next game. folks complain and do internet petitions (HA!) and post fraudulent reviews and dox particular developers.  nonsense, particular as a large % o' folks complaining is gonna buy the title in question regardless. impulse control and internet anonymity has millennials fighting their personal little round top with steam reviews?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZL-5uyp44WA

 

heck, the current tempest in a tea cup ain't even the result o' a late development bit o' publisher chicanery, for which we might have a bit o' sympathy for angry purchasers. spend money on a pre-order (which we never do as is stoopid… in fact, our last day 1 purchase, crowdfunded projects aside, were nwn) and devote many hours following development only to find out in the weeks before release the game will not be as advertised.  *grumble* but such isn't the case in the present situation, and even if it were, our response would be same as always.  as hard as it is to believe, over the years Gromnir has complained 'bout any number o' developer and publisher choices.  we complain and depending on developer response, we decide to purchase or not.  end.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 27, 2019 by Gromnir

[Cartoons Plural]

this is a deeply stupid thread and i can't believe someone brought up participation trophies

 

dr roleplaying nerd, phd of the blowhard fellowship expert in diagnosing the internet maladies of the common "millennial"

 

most of these ratings bombers are zoomers (under 24s) who believe in some kind of market-based gaming Renaissance if they actively participate in the ratings and critical aspect of gaming media so this is one of their only recourse of participation, like voting, since they are otaku and dont understand anything about capitalism or life really.

 

i think most generational observations about millennials are weaponized clickbait bull**** at best and lazy thinking and prejudiced at worst but don't let me stop you citing "a whole heap o' studies"

 

keep being old geezers my dudes

 

ps josh is really politically left, publicly, on twitter: i think it makes his games targets

Edited March 27, 2019 by Cartoons Plural

[Boeroer]

Since those new trollish reviews all mention the Epic store and all popped up directly after the announcement about TOW getting released there I think your last point is not valid here. I mean yes: him being political might make him and the games designed by him a target - but in this case that doesn't seem to play a role.

[Phenomenum]

Wow, such a filosophical discussion. Great topic so far)

[thelee]

every generation has thought the next generation was horrible, had corrupting toys, etc. i'm sure when some teenagers and 20somethings were writing something called "The Declaration of Independence" and participating in the american revolution, there were some older british folk who were pooh-poohing these youths' entitled attitudes to having "no taxation without representation" without going through the traditional hard work of somehow obtaining a peerage or becoming landed gentry first.

 

don't worry, as the song goes, the kids are alright.

Edited March 27, 2019 by thelee

[daven]

Why dont we stop blaming the world for our problems and take some responsibility?

[xzar_monty]

every generation has thought the next generation was horrible, had corrupting toys, etc. i'm sure when some teenagers and 20somethings were writing something called "The Declaration of Independence" and participating in the american revolution, there were some older british folk who were pooh-poohing these youths' entitled attitudes to having "no taxation without representation" without going through the traditional hard work of somehow obtaining a peerage or becoming landed gentry first.

 

don't worry, as the song goes, the kids are alright.

 

As far as I know -- or as far as what I was saying, anyway -- this is not really about that. The argument is not that the next generation is horrible.

 

However, as far as that argument goes, it is quite correct. One of the oldest cuneiform tablets ever found contains the lament of an elderly priest aghast at the fact how the young ones no longer revere gods to the extent they should. This is old as day.

 

Related to this is the very sad fact that elderly people actually enjoy reading bad news about the young. That's a disappointing study finding right there!

Edited March 27, 2019 by xzar_monty

[Boeroer]

Schadenfreude I guess?